14 ms·

Being tired isn’t a badge of honor – Signal v. Noise

187 points by tilt 11y ago

chatwinra 11y ago
I think this kind of writing is very important, because it's not just a trend in start-ups. There's a similar badge of honour of 'working long hours' at established companies. I'm watching with interest experiments happening in nordic countries about how actually working less could be beneficial, although as the article points out it's too early to draw conclusive findings[1]. [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949
- mvdwoord 11y ago
  Yes, I can confirm that at after observing this behavior at many Big companies. Right now, two floors down, there is a team working 10-14 hour days including weekends for over 8 months. Needless to say that any if not all decisions by now are just sleep deprived panic reactions to a mountain of technical debt. Default reaction to every setback is to add more PMs, hours etc. It is a gargantuan mess, 100s of millions of dollars worth of pure crap really. Ultimately that cost is beared by society as a whole. Sometimes when I walk past them I am quite confident humanity is doomed.
- equalarrow 11y ago
  The bigger question though is who is this a badge of honor for and why? For startups, it's sexy for founders to say they cranked 16 hour days and they had a great exit. They won! Sure, they may have won, but on the other side of that is that they've ground their employees into the ground. Families and friends be damned. Seriously. There's nothing worse having a family that's second to an unsustainable and poisonous work ethic. Talk about breaking down the American family, this is one perfect example; a society that values monetary success over raising the next generation... I went through one of these and I'll never do it again. I've worked for a lot of startups too and it's only good for investors and founders that get a good exit. It's never good for the employee, even if there is a good exit. For them, the damage is done because they see "wow, we succeeded, this must be the way to do it". I was close to leaving tech - something I've done for decades - because of this attitude that is really ingrained in tech now. It's a cancer, really. I couldn't agree with the article more and hope people really take it to heart.
Joeri 11y ago
I had the 'benefit' of coming in to a low pressure job early in my career sitting next to colleagues in a high pressure situation. Seeing the cognitive decline worsen day after day convinced me very early on that working all those hours provided only downside, not upside, and in the ensuing decade nothing dissuaded me of that. I'm not even convinced that the 40 hours i work myself is itself not too much. Less hours worked means you can't power through but have to replace endurance with wits, which leads to much better decision-making. Of course, sometimes there is no substitute for hard sustained work, but if you're too tired to see the substitutes, then many problems end up needing that hard workload to solve.
- Bahamut 11y ago
  Not only that - you lose sight of the larger problems that need solving, but don't get to solve for too long that it becomes forgotten. I've worked some 30-35 hour weeks at my current job, but work has been super happy with my productivity that it isn't an issue (plus I do a lot of open source work outside the job, so work still benefits from that) - occasionally I still participate in some prolonged hours due to major deadlines, but those deadlines are malleable and not prioritized over product team work-life balance. It is a refreshing contrast with the typical startup here in the Bay Area
- louhike 11y ago
  Even though I tend to agree with your comment, I think we should not mix sleep deprivation and overtime. Sleep deprivation is really really bad, whatever the context. Working more than 40 hours might make sense if you do various tasks and you like your job and its environment.
noipv4 11y ago
Prolonged lack of sleep can also lead to brain diseases since our brain needs sleep to clear out toxins. Especially true for people prone to epilepsy; they need that sleep to avoid unwanted seizures.
EarthIsHome 11y ago
This hits home with me. I live where I work (~15 min bicycle ride each way, 10 if I'm fast). I could also walk. I love this life; I haven't owned a car in five years. The past month, I've been assigned to work 17 miles out. My commute went from a pleasant 15 minutes one way to 1 hour and 15 minutes one way on sidewalks and shitty to no bicycle infrastructure in the suburbs. I take a bus for a portion of it. This change has disrupted my whole life; I now truly know what people mean by the term "the daily grind". You wake up, do your routine, go to work, do work, come home, and go to sleep. Repeat. Every day. It's depressing. It seeps into your whole life outside of work and affects your well being. After spending the last few years living and working within the radius of a few miles, after two days of working 17 miles away, I loathe it. The enjoyable work turns sour and it's hard to do your best. I truly don't understand how people spend their days like this. I really feel for those who don't own a car and don't live close to their place of work. Some of the people on the bus work two jobs; just imagine spending that much time commuting and working just to get by.
- ryandrake 11y ago
  > I truly don't understand how people spend their days like this. You get used to it. When I lived in a more affordable metro area, I could live 30-45 minutes from work, and indeed it was nice. Now, in the Bay Area, it's more like 2+ hours each way, which I thought would make me want to slit my wrists, but you kind of just turn off your brain and deal with it. I find the need to "take work home"--because there isn't enough time in the day--to be more of a "grind" than the commute. You never truly end your work for the day. But you do what you have to to support your family, even if you never get to see them.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    > "But you do what you have to to support your family, even if you never get to see them." I understand why you would do this for your family, but surely there are other work options? If you're spending 2+ hours each way in a commute, that's roughly 1/4 of your waking time each work day. If you could take a small pay cut (retaining enough money to support your family) but get those 4+ hours of your time each work day back, would that be something you'd consider?
nness 11y ago
There has been a few occasions in the past where I've taken a sick day because I got less than 4 hours sleep. I'd sent an email to whomever is my manager for the project and go back to bed. Then there have been times where I just powered through anyway, drank coffee and lots of water and took some pseudoephedrine... and felt horrible for days afterwards. Taking a sick-day is definitely preferred. (this only works if you have a safety-net where employees are guaranteed more than a week of leave for illness, compassionate or carers. Hard to imagine not having that protection.)
- swalsh 11y ago
  Once you have kids, that doesn't really work any more. The number of nights where a screaming kid prevents you from sleeping is going to be larger than the number of sick days you have :\
- NoSalt 11y ago
  I've never had sick days in any job I've ever worked. I can only imagine how nice it must be.
- joesmo 11y ago
  Having a flexible schedule can sometimes help with this. Every once in awhile I find myself unable to fall asleep till about 6 or 7am and being able to get up at 11 or even 12 and start working has saved many a day from being a sick day to being slightly unproductive. Had I had to wake up before then, I'd have taken a sick day before even falling asleep. I understand not all jobs can work like this, but most can if allowed to. Unfortunately, most jobs don't allow it.
brador 11y ago
There's working hard to make yourself richer, then there's working hard to make someone else richer. Know the difference and get to the former as soon as you can in your working life.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  Even working for yourself, there is still a physiological limit. You might be less prone to burnout working for yourself, but you still can't work 20 hour days and expect to be productive.
beat 11y ago
You need to be able to reset to zero. Think about it... as you tire, the quality of your work declines. That's obvious. Taken far enough, you can become counterproductive, making so many expensive mistakes that you'd have gotten more done by not working at all. But rest resets our bodies and energy, right? But what if you don't get enough rest to reset? Then you're starting the next day still carrying the debt of yesterday's overwork. You're not as productive as you should be.
thinkMOAR 11y ago
Reads okay, but far from agreeing with this personal point of view. And i think it lacks a lot of proof for some statements e.g. 'It works through matters you can’t address during the day.' I'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you think this. Being tired can certainly be a badge of honour. It's where for example you continued to get things DONE... and others simply say, tomorrow another day, i don't care what happens after 5PM. It's called responsibility. Though this obviously doesn't apply to everybody in the same way. also please read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity
- w0utert 11y ago
  >> I'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you think this. Purely anecdotal, but it happened to me zillions of times that I got completely stuck at a problem at work, only to solve it within a few minutes the next day. I've yet to come across a single developer who doesn't acknowledge that kind of experience is very common. I see it regularly, the longer coworkers trudge along trying to get something done after 10 hours of work, the more problems and crap they produce. I'm not sure why you need more 'proof' that working long hours kills productivity and creativity, and rest (sleep) replenishes it. It seems completely natural, both from experience and from an evolutionary perspective.
  - thinkMOAR 11y ago
    Well studies show that lack of sleep doesn't at all kill creativity (and that could lead to productivity too). Also negative experiences create a more clear memory of the event then a positive one. So it's even possible you only remember the times you couldn't come up with the idea that same day vs not having memories of the times you did came up with solution that same day (because, you didn't have to wait till the next day to fix it, which didn't create such a strong memory of that annoying moment).
    - w0utert 11y ago
      And other studies show the opposite... Interestingly, the Wikipedia article you linked yourself references multiple that show sleep deprivation is bad for creativity and productivity. But like I said, I don't need research or other 'proof', the proof is my own experience, which is purely empirical but totally consistent. Do you honestly believe being tired does not affect your performance in mental tasks?
H0n3sty 11y ago
I've had success taking sleep even further. It seems that humans are polyphasic sleepers, just like most other mammals. I've found that I get tired after lunch, and benefit greatly from a 30-60 minute nap. The trick to getting the most out of polyphasic sleep is having a bedroom conducive to quality sleep - it should be cool, very dark, and very quiet. I use some opaque shades (shift shades) to block the light from the windows, and either a white noise machine or fan to ensure I'm relatively undisturbed by sounds outside my room.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  For me, just doing something else is usually enough to help me recharge (if I'm not sleep deprived). Watching TV, going for a walk or bike ride, reading, etc.
rectang 11y ago
From 10 years ago: http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx "Bill Gates has been quoted saying that his programmers can program for 72 hours straight," Stickgold says. "And I say: yeah, but their product is Windows." This topic will be with us forever.
dineshp2 11y ago
A lot of what the post talks about is applicable to me. There will always be lots of very interesting things to do and some things you are forced to do, such as academic work or job related. I think at some point you have to take a step back and take a look at what is it that you are spending your life doing. So recently I had made a list of all the things I wanted to learn and have a working knowledge of: Ruby on Rails, Git and Mercurial, WebRTC, Go, Android development. iOS development, Shell scripting, Python, R, machine learning, server adminstration, Angular JS. Yes it sounds crazy probably because it is crazy. Then I reached a point where I was pushing myself to learn new technologies at an unsustainable pace. And the excuse was always "today is the last day I'll need to get by on 3 hours of sleep". Then I finally got to the point where I was completely exhausted and that forced me to take a step back and learn what was absolutely important to me (for my startup) and stop trying to learn/understand every single interesting language, framework or platform I come across (thanks partly to my HN addiction). Regarding the discussion about commuting to and from work, it's a real drain on employees, employer and the environment as well (pollution). This might not be applicable to most types of jobs, but living far away from cities and working remotely are something worth exploring. I say this from first hand experience, living in the country side, close to beautiful farms, flowing rivers and with access to hills with trails, and working on my personal projects and constantly in touch with the outside world through the internet, I never feel like I am missing out much on city life. It's probably the best of both worlds. I think eventually, the preference of living in densely populated cities will give way to leading a more peaceful life and yet continue doing creative work in smaller, less dense establishments. Hopefully a reverse urbanisation.
zamalek 11y ago
As an employee I used to subscribe to the no sleep model, deluding myself into believing that I was being productive. The truth is that I was probably being productive, but the reality is that I was being productive toward destructive ends. I learned a lesson and, unlike every other developer where I work, I stick to it. If I'm doing overtime it is because of exceptional circumstances. My company has learned to respect that - I'd wager that many would. Just the other night I had a meeting with my brother about some design issues around an API (usability and guidance toward strong patterns for 3rd party devs). We have very similar brains (thought patterns and overall intellect) but unlike me he still overworks himself. Once I grasped the problems, the solutions were strikingly obvious to my well-rested mind. He'd been struggling for at least a week. I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience are not how you sway decision makers.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  >I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience are not how you sway decision makers. There is a lot of science out there. Henry Ford was one of the first major employers to figure out that when his employees had higher productivity when their work hours were reduced from 9 hours a day to 8. The interesting thing is that total productivity is increased (as well as productivity per hour) by working fewer hours. Working long hours long-term is highly detrminental. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunchmode/econ-hours-productivity.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunc...
  - vvanders 11y ago
    There's also been a recent study in the GameDev space called "The Games Outcomes Project" which specifically looked at crunch: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Game_Outcomes_Project_Part_1_The_Best_and_the_Rest.php http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Ga... Spoilers: It destroys productivity and teams.
welanes 11y ago
I'd add, for those that have to depend on alarm clocks, please sleep earlier or figure out your circadian rhythm ('biological clock') so you don't get jolted out of deep sleep by a horrible loud noise each day. I'm fortunate enough to wake up naturally however I hear foghorn ringtones echoing from my housemates rooms most mornings and that's just a terrible way to start your day. Leads to a grogginess that's hard to shake.
- Broken_Hippo 11y ago
  Unfortunately, my natural circadian rhythm isn't set early enough to be able to do any of this stuff if I take a job with 'normal' working hours. The earliest I can manage to wake up consistently without an alarm is around 9am, but it is much better if I'm waking at 10 or 11. I'm not a child - i'm in my late 30's and have never 'grown out' of it. I can sleep the same amount of hours, one earlier in the night (and waking earlier) and one delayed, and always feel groggy waking up at 6 or 7am. Sometimes I simply don't hear alarms, even with good sleeping habits, and early waking times increase my chances of 'sleep drunkeness' and confused wakenings - sometimes I can barely manage to take a shower unless I give myself 15-20 minutes after waking for my mind to catch up. I have generally tried to take jobs that work around this, but it hasn't always been possible.
anonu 11y ago
Freakonomics re-posted their "Econommics of Sleep" 2-part podcast. They look at sleep and how sleep varies across different demographics. One interesting point they made was that the "I don't need sleep" concept may have been popularized in the 80s or 90s with celebrities and politicians making these statements. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-part-1-freakonomics-radio-rebroadcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-part-1-freak... http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-part-1-full-transcript/ http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-pa...
USNetizen 11y ago
This reads very, very similar to a post I wrote (and also made it to the front page of HN) a couple of years ago: http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-rediculously-long-hours-is-a-sign-that-something-is-wrong/ http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-rediculously-...
fefifofu 11y ago
Investment bankers wear it with a badge of honor, but who cares it's only money... the scary one is when doctors brag about it! Especially the ones in med school or just out of school. Peoples lives or quality of lives depend on them making correct decisions. With a small business, I understand why there can be lack of sleep - you don't have the resources to hire more, but stuff has to get done. But with IBs/Doctors, why can't the Managing Directors/Head of Depts just hire more, but pay less (with shorter shifts)?
miles_matthias 11y ago
The timing of this article is funny for me. I just got back from 5 days in Cancun celebrating a special occasion with my wife. Working smart, not hard is even more crucial at startups given how few resources you actually have to make progress. I wrote my own similar thoughts here: https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#.508bhclib https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#....

187 points by tilt 11y ago

I think this kind of writing is very important, because it's not just a trend in start-ups. There's a similar badge of honour of 'working long hours' at established companies. I'm watching with interest experiments happening in nordic countries about how actually working less could be beneficial, although as the article points out it's too early to draw conclusive findings[1]. [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34677949

mvdwoord 11y ago
Yes, I can confirm that at after observing this behavior at many Big companies. Right now, two floors down, there is a team working 10-14 hour days including weekends for over 8 months. Needless to say that any if not all decisions by now are just sleep deprived panic reactions to a mountain of technical debt. Default reaction to every setback is to add more PMs, hours etc. It is a gargantuan mess, 100s of millions of dollars worth of pure crap really. Ultimately that cost is beared by society as a whole. Sometimes when I walk past them I am quite confident humanity is doomed.
equalarrow 11y ago
The bigger question though is who is this a badge of honor for and why? For startups, it's sexy for founders to say they cranked 16 hour days and they had a great exit. They won! Sure, they may have won, but on the other side of that is that they've ground their employees into the ground. Families and friends be damned. Seriously. There's nothing worse having a family that's second to an unsustainable and poisonous work ethic. Talk about breaking down the American family, this is one perfect example; a society that values monetary success over raising the next generation... I went through one of these and I'll never do it again. I've worked for a lot of startups too and it's only good for investors and founders that get a good exit. It's never good for the employee, even if there is a good exit. For them, the damage is done because they see "wow, we succeeded, this must be the way to do it". I was close to leaving tech - something I've done for decades - because of this attitude that is really ingrained in tech now. It's a cancer, really. I couldn't agree with the article more and hope people really take it to heart.

Joeri 11y ago

I had the 'benefit' of coming in to a low pressure job early in my career sitting next to colleagues in a high pressure situation. Seeing the cognitive decline worsen day after day convinced me very early on that working all those hours provided only downside, not upside, and in the ensuing decade nothing dissuaded me of that. I'm not even convinced that the 40 hours i work myself is itself not too much. Less hours worked means you can't power through but have to replace endurance with wits, which leads to much better decision-making. Of course, sometimes there is no substitute for hard sustained work, but if you're too tired to see the substitutes, then many problems end up needing that hard workload to solve.

Bahamut 11y ago
Not only that - you lose sight of the larger problems that need solving, but don't get to solve for too long that it becomes forgotten. I've worked some 30-35 hour weeks at my current job, but work has been super happy with my productivity that it isn't an issue (plus I do a lot of open source work outside the job, so work still benefits from that) - occasionally I still participate in some prolonged hours due to major deadlines, but those deadlines are malleable and not prioritized over product team work-life balance. It is a refreshing contrast with the typical startup here in the Bay Area
louhike 11y ago
Even though I tend to agree with your comment, I think we should not mix sleep deprivation and overtime. Sleep deprivation is really really bad, whatever the context. Working more than 40 hours might make sense if you do various tasks and you like your job and its environment.

noipv4 11y ago

Prolonged lack of sleep can also lead to brain diseases since our brain needs sleep to clear out toxins. Especially true for people prone to epilepsy; they need that sleep to avoid unwanted seizures.

EarthIsHome 11y ago

This hits home with me. I live where I work (~15 min bicycle ride each way, 10 if I'm fast). I could also walk. I love this life; I haven't owned a car in five years. The past month, I've been assigned to work 17 miles out. My commute went from a pleasant 15 minutes one way to 1 hour and 15 minutes one way on sidewalks and shitty to no bicycle infrastructure in the suburbs. I take a bus for a portion of it. This change has disrupted my whole life; I now truly know what people mean by the term "the daily grind". You wake up, do your routine, go to work, do work, come home, and go to sleep. Repeat. Every day. It's depressing. It seeps into your whole life outside of work and affects your well being. After spending the last few years living and working within the radius of a few miles, after two days of working 17 miles away, I loathe it. The enjoyable work turns sour and it's hard to do your best. I truly don't understand how people spend their days like this. I really feel for those who don't own a car and don't live close to their place of work. Some of the people on the bus work two jobs; just imagine spending that much time commuting and working just to get by.

ryandrake 11y ago
> I truly don't understand how people spend their days like this. You get used to it. When I lived in a more affordable metro area, I could live 30-45 minutes from work, and indeed it was nice. Now, in the Bay Area, it's more like 2+ hours each way, which I thought would make me want to slit my wrists, but you kind of just turn off your brain and deal with it. I find the need to "take work home"--because there isn't enough time in the day--to be more of a "grind" than the commute. You never truly end your work for the day. But you do what you have to to support your family, even if you never get to see them.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  > "But you do what you have to to support your family, even if you never get to see them." I understand why you would do this for your family, but surely there are other work options? If you're spending 2+ hours each way in a commute, that's roughly 1/4 of your waking time each work day. If you could take a small pay cut (retaining enough money to support your family) but get those 4+ hours of your time each work day back, would that be something you'd consider?

nness 11y ago

There has been a few occasions in the past where I've taken a sick day because I got less than 4 hours sleep. I'd sent an email to whomever is my manager for the project and go back to bed. Then there have been times where I just powered through anyway, drank coffee and lots of water and took some pseudoephedrine... and felt horrible for days afterwards. Taking a sick-day is definitely preferred. (this only works if you have a safety-net where employees are guaranteed more than a week of leave for illness, compassionate or carers. Hard to imagine not having that protection.)

swalsh 11y ago
Once you have kids, that doesn't really work any more. The number of nights where a screaming kid prevents you from sleeping is going to be larger than the number of sick days you have :\
NoSalt 11y ago
I've never had sick days in any job I've ever worked. I can only imagine how nice it must be.
joesmo 11y ago
Having a flexible schedule can sometimes help with this. Every once in awhile I find myself unable to fall asleep till about 6 or 7am and being able to get up at 11 or even 12 and start working has saved many a day from being a sick day to being slightly unproductive. Had I had to wake up before then, I'd have taken a sick day before even falling asleep. I understand not all jobs can work like this, but most can if allowed to. Unfortunately, most jobs don't allow it.

brador 11y ago

There's working hard to make yourself richer, then there's working hard to make someone else richer. Know the difference and get to the former as soon as you can in your working life.

cpncrunch 11y ago
Even working for yourself, there is still a physiological limit. You might be less prone to burnout working for yourself, but you still can't work 20 hour days and expect to be productive.

beat 11y ago

You need to be able to reset to zero. Think about it... as you tire, the quality of your work declines. That's obvious. Taken far enough, you can become counterproductive, making so many expensive mistakes that you'd have gotten more done by not working at all. But rest resets our bodies and energy, right? But what if you don't get enough rest to reset? Then you're starting the next day still carrying the debt of yesterday's overwork. You're not as productive as you should be.

thinkMOAR 11y ago

Reads okay, but far from agreeing with this personal point of view. And i think it lacks a lot of proof for some statements e.g. 'It works through matters you can’t address during the day.' I'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you think this. Being tired can certainly be a badge of honour. It's where for example you continued to get things DONE... and others simply say, tomorrow another day, i don't care what happens after 5PM. It's called responsibility. Though this obviously doesn't apply to everybody in the same way. also please read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_and_creativity

w0utert 11y ago
>> I'm curious how you assume this or what papers you read that makes you think this. Purely anecdotal, but it happened to me zillions of times that I got completely stuck at a problem at work, only to solve it within a few minutes the next day. I've yet to come across a single developer who doesn't acknowledge that kind of experience is very common. I see it regularly, the longer coworkers trudge along trying to get something done after 10 hours of work, the more problems and crap they produce. I'm not sure why you need more 'proof' that working long hours kills productivity and creativity, and rest (sleep) replenishes it. It seems completely natural, both from experience and from an evolutionary perspective.
- thinkMOAR 11y ago
  Well studies show that lack of sleep doesn't at all kill creativity (and that could lead to productivity too). Also negative experiences create a more clear memory of the event then a positive one. So it's even possible you only remember the times you couldn't come up with the idea that same day vs not having memories of the times you did came up with solution that same day (because, you didn't have to wait till the next day to fix it, which didn't create such a strong memory of that annoying moment).
  - w0utert 11y ago
    And other studies show the opposite... Interestingly, the Wikipedia article you linked yourself references multiple that show sleep deprivation is bad for creativity and productivity. But like I said, I don't need research or other 'proof', the proof is my own experience, which is purely empirical but totally consistent. Do you honestly believe being tired does not affect your performance in mental tasks?

H0n3sty 11y ago

I've had success taking sleep even further. It seems that humans are polyphasic sleepers, just like most other mammals. I've found that I get tired after lunch, and benefit greatly from a 30-60 minute nap. The trick to getting the most out of polyphasic sleep is having a bedroom conducive to quality sleep - it should be cool, very dark, and very quiet. I use some opaque shades (shift shades) to block the light from the windows, and either a white noise machine or fan to ensure I'm relatively undisturbed by sounds outside my room.

cpncrunch 11y ago
For me, just doing something else is usually enough to help me recharge (if I'm not sleep deprived). Watching TV, going for a walk or bike ride, reading, etc.

rectang 11y ago

From 10 years ago: http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/onit.aspx "Bill Gates has been quoted saying that his programmers can program for 72 hours straight," Stickgold says. "And I say: yeah, but their product is Windows." This topic will be with us forever.

dineshp2 11y ago

A lot of what the post talks about is applicable to me. There will always be lots of very interesting things to do and some things you are forced to do, such as academic work or job related. I think at some point you have to take a step back and take a look at what is it that you are spending your life doing. So recently I had made a list of all the things I wanted to learn and have a working knowledge of: Ruby on Rails, Git and Mercurial, WebRTC, Go, Android development. iOS development, Shell scripting, Python, R, machine learning, server adminstration, Angular JS. Yes it sounds crazy probably because it is crazy. Then I reached a point where I was pushing myself to learn new technologies at an unsustainable pace. And the excuse was always "today is the last day I'll need to get by on 3 hours of sleep". Then I finally got to the point where I was completely exhausted and that forced me to take a step back and learn what was absolutely important to me (for my startup) and stop trying to learn/understand every single interesting language, framework or platform I come across (thanks partly to my HN addiction). Regarding the discussion about commuting to and from work, it's a real drain on employees, employer and the environment as well (pollution). This might not be applicable to most types of jobs, but living far away from cities and working remotely are something worth exploring. I say this from first hand experience, living in the country side, close to beautiful farms, flowing rivers and with access to hills with trails, and working on my personal projects and constantly in touch with the outside world through the internet, I never feel like I am missing out much on city life. It's probably the best of both worlds. I think eventually, the preference of living in densely populated cities will give way to leading a more peaceful life and yet continue doing creative work in smaller, less dense establishments. Hopefully a reverse urbanisation.

zamalek 11y ago

As an employee I used to subscribe to the no sleep model, deluding myself into believing that I was being productive. The truth is that I was probably being productive, but the reality is that I was being productive toward destructive ends. I learned a lesson and, unlike every other developer where I work, I stick to it. If I'm doing overtime it is because of exceptional circumstances. My company has learned to respect that - I'd wager that many would. Just the other night I had a meeting with my brother about some design issues around an API (usability and guidance toward strong patterns for 3rd party devs). We have very similar brains (thought patterns and overall intellect) but unlike me he still overworks himself. Once I grasped the problems, the solutions were strikingly obvious to my well-rested mind. He'd been struggling for at least a week. I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience are not how you sway decision makers.

cpncrunch 11y ago
>I wish we could have some more science done on this stuff (specifically relating to tech). I have a huge amount of experience-based evidence pointing toward the factuality of this article, but anecdotes and personal experience are not how you sway decision makers. There is a lot of science out there. Henry Ford was one of the first major employers to figure out that when his employees had higher productivity when their work hours were reduced from 9 hours a day to 8. The interesting thing is that total productivity is increased (as well as productivity per hour) by working fewer hours. Working long hours long-term is highly detrminental. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunchmode/econ-hours-productivity.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/crunc...
- vvanders 11y ago
  There's also been a recent study in the GameDev space called "The Games Outcomes Project" which specifically looked at crunch: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Game_Outcomes_Project_Part_1_The_Best_and_the_Rest.php http://gamasutra.com/blogs/PaulTozour/20141216/232023/The_Ga... Spoilers: It destroys productivity and teams.

welanes 11y ago

I'd add, for those that have to depend on alarm clocks, please sleep earlier or figure out your circadian rhythm ('biological clock') so you don't get jolted out of deep sleep by a horrible loud noise each day. I'm fortunate enough to wake up naturally however I hear foghorn ringtones echoing from my housemates rooms most mornings and that's just a terrible way to start your day. Leads to a grogginess that's hard to shake.

Broken_Hippo 11y ago
Unfortunately, my natural circadian rhythm isn't set early enough to be able to do any of this stuff if I take a job with 'normal' working hours. The earliest I can manage to wake up consistently without an alarm is around 9am, but it is much better if I'm waking at 10 or 11. I'm not a child - i'm in my late 30's and have never 'grown out' of it. I can sleep the same amount of hours, one earlier in the night (and waking earlier) and one delayed, and always feel groggy waking up at 6 or 7am. Sometimes I simply don't hear alarms, even with good sleeping habits, and early waking times increase my chances of 'sleep drunkeness' and confused wakenings - sometimes I can barely manage to take a shower unless I give myself 15-20 minutes after waking for my mind to catch up. I have generally tried to take jobs that work around this, but it hasn't always been possible.

anonu 11y ago

Freakonomics re-posted their "Econommics of Sleep" 2-part podcast. They look at sleep and how sleep varies across different demographics. One interesting point they made was that the "I don't need sleep" concept may have been popularized in the 80s or 90s with celebrities and politicians making these statements. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-part-1-freakonomics-radio-rebroadcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/economics-sleep-part-1-freak... http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-part-1-full-transcript/ http://freakonomics.com/2015/07/09/the-economics-of-sleep-pa...

USNetizen 11y ago

This reads very, very similar to a post I wrote (and also made it to the front page of HN) a couple of years ago: http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-rediculously-long-hours-is-a-sign-that-something-is-wrong/ http://blog.netizencorp.com/2014/03/30/working-rediculously-...

fefifofu 11y ago

Investment bankers wear it with a badge of honor, but who cares it's only money... the scary one is when doctors brag about it! Especially the ones in med school or just out of school. Peoples lives or quality of lives depend on them making correct decisions. With a small business, I understand why there can be lack of sleep - you don't have the resources to hire more, but stuff has to get done. But with IBs/Doctors, why can't the Managing Directors/Head of Depts just hire more, but pay less (with shorter shifts)?

miles_matthias 11y ago

The timing of this article is funny for me. I just got back from 5 days in Cancun celebrating a special occasion with my wife. Working smart, not hard is even more crucial at startups given how few resources you actually have to make progress. I wrote my own similar thoughts here: https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#.508bhclib https://softwarebymiles.com/startups-vacation-c1c9d4ceb7ff#....