4 ms·

For what it is worth, I ride transit a lot in Seattle and really like the electric trolleybuses we have here. The new ones are whisper quiet, have air condition

For what it is worth, I ride transit a lot in Seattle and really like the electric trolleybuses we have here. The new ones are whisper quiet, have air conditioning, are generally a smooth ride, and belch no black smoke. I will modify trips to be on one of those instead of a diesel bus. My house is on a trolley route, by choice. Metro has almost completely eliminated the older high-floor diesels that are loud and rickety. Next up is ditching the longer, old conversion electric buses.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
The only reason they have trolleybuses in Seattle, however, is because of the hills. Electric provides much more torque for getting a big bus up a steep hill. If hills aren't involved, the bus is usually diesel given the flexibility and lack of infrastructure need. (They used to run electric in the bus tunnel, but went with hybrid instead)
- goldent777 11y ago
  Diesel puts out more torque every day of the week. The reason you use electric in Seattle is because of cheap hydro energy.
  - 1024core 11y ago
    You are incorrect. At start (speed == 0), an electric motor will put out a lot more torque than a diesel. When you're stopped at a steep hill, this is what matters the most.
    - kazinator 11y ago
      At speed == 0, a combustion engine doesn't put out any torque; it doesn't work at that speed. It has quite a high minimum speed, below which it stalls (if under load: the idling speed is lower). To get going, you need a low gear and a clutch of some kind. To get going up a steep hill, with a heavy load, you simply need an even lower gear. The problem has a solution. The high low-end torque of electric motors is actually annoying in a transit vehicle. Particularly to those passengers who are standing up. The vehicle moves suddenly, flipping from zero acceleration to high acceleration. The time derivative of acceleration is called "jerk", for a good reason.
      - mc32 11y ago
        The jerking problem could be solved, if they wanted to. Just like modern elevators aren't jerky or HSRs aren't typically jerky and with most you are hard pressed to feel hard acceleration/deceleration (BART does have a jerking problem, but it's old and it's not HSR).
      - themodelplumber 11y ago
        Wait so where are you on the diesel yes/no question
        kazinator 11y ago
        I don't own a car and cycle to work, appointments and errands (as well as for recreation, on top of running five days a week). Things on wheels with a diesel engine in them tend to be oversized and driven by lowlife assholes who threaten cyclists and other motorists. At times (such as when accelerating or otherwise loaded) they spew noxious black smoke from their unmanaged, unoptimized engines that run fine on 25 octane garbage due to the way they are designed, and are noisy as hell. The regulation for sulphur content in the fuel and the condition of diesel engines must be a joke in Canada. Definitely I don't see such black smoke coming out of trucks, or the pungent smell, in Japan, for instance. The trucks and buses smell similar to an indoor, household kerosene-burning heater, a bit like a paraffin candle; quite different from the acrid stench I'm used to smelling at home. So that's where I am on the diesel yes/no question.
- quanticle 11y ago
  Are they still running buses in the bus tunnel? My impression lately, with the way Sound Transit has been moving routes out of the bus tunnel is that the bus tunnel these days is more of a light-rail tunnel.
  - techsupporter 11y ago
    Yes, buses are still in the transit tunnel. They'll be there until, current guess, 2019.
- techsupporter 11y ago
  That's as may be. My house is served by two trolley routes and I can go almost anywhere I want except northeast Seattle by trolley. Given a choice, I use the electric routes (for example, going to Ballard using the 44 instead of the 40). Move Seattle is supposed to fund more electrification of routes so maybe we get more wires in the next handful of years.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Ya, I was living in the U district for a long time, and they had a few trolleybuses through but they were mostly local routes through the hills. If you wanted to get to downtown, the 71/72/73 were diesel even though (at the time) they were capable of running on electric in the tunnel. Frankly, I wish they would just go with a decent tram system (like Portland and many European cities). I wonder why the don't consider electric buses with big batteries. We have a few of those in Beijing now, and they seem to work OK. I have no idea how long they have to be down for charging, however.
    - techsupporter 11y ago
      > I wonder why the don't consider electric buses with big batteries. Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/News/release/2016/February/17-battery-bus-launch.aspx http://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/News... http://seattletransitblog.com/2016/02/22/metros-battery-powered-proterra-buses-now-running-revenue-service/ http://seattletransitblog.com/2016/02/22/metros-battery-powe... Metro is running Proterra EV buses (like a Nissan Leaf writ very large) on routes 226 and 241 on the Eastside. So far the only charger is at Eastgate P&R so the routes served by the Proterras have to go through there. They are entirely run on batteries, no overhead wire or diesel engine, but their range is limited to about a ~20 mile route and they don't hold a charge well with steep hills. They take around 20 minutes to go from discharged to full and about 10 minutes to recharge from normal route usage. The new trolleys, separate from the Proterras, operating in Seattle now have batteries and can run off-wire for a few miles, including going up the 18% grade found at James St & 7th Ave. They're a lot better on hills and come in bendy-bus (articulated) styles that the Proterras currently don't have. We're trying to build more streetcars but there is astounding pushback against devoting street capacity to exclusive lanes for them. The First Hill Streetcar, that runs from the ID to Capitol Hill Link Station, goes up two-lane-with-bike-path Broadway...and is slower than walking during parts of the day. On the other hand, it will get monumentally more useful if the Central City Connector--a streetcar route from the ID to Westlake along 1st Ave in its own lanes--is built because the CCC will connect both streetcar routes. Personally, I'd love to see a dedicated-lane streetcar running between Mt Baker Station (Rainier Ave near Franklin HS) to University Link Station (just north of the ship canal along Montlake) on 23rd Ave. Cheaper than tunneling, in its own right-of-way, and running from, say, 5am to 1am every day of the week. That would be incredible and could easily replace route 48 with more capacity and better reliability. Sadly, I suspect I will be dead and gone before the Central District gets any kind of high-capacity transit.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago

The only reason they have trolleybuses in Seattle, however, is because of the hills. Electric provides much more torque for getting a big bus up a steep hill. If hills aren't involved, the bus is usually diesel given the flexibility and lack of infrastructure need. (They used to run electric in the bus tunnel, but went with hybrid instead)

goldent777 11y ago
Diesel puts out more torque every day of the week. The reason you use electric in Seattle is because of cheap hydro energy.
- 1024core 11y ago
  You are incorrect. At start (speed == 0), an electric motor will put out a lot more torque than a diesel. When you're stopped at a steep hill, this is what matters the most.
  - kazinator 11y ago
    At speed == 0, a combustion engine doesn't put out any torque; it doesn't work at that speed. It has quite a high minimum speed, below which it stalls (if under load: the idling speed is lower). To get going, you need a low gear and a clutch of some kind. To get going up a steep hill, with a heavy load, you simply need an even lower gear. The problem has a solution. The high low-end torque of electric motors is actually annoying in a transit vehicle. Particularly to those passengers who are standing up. The vehicle moves suddenly, flipping from zero acceleration to high acceleration. The time derivative of acceleration is called "jerk", for a good reason.
    - mc32 11y ago
      The jerking problem could be solved, if they wanted to. Just like modern elevators aren't jerky or HSRs aren't typically jerky and with most you are hard pressed to feel hard acceleration/deceleration (BART does have a jerking problem, but it's old and it's not HSR).
    - themodelplumber 11y ago
      Wait so where are you on the diesel yes/no question
      - kazinator 11y ago
        I don't own a car and cycle to work, appointments and errands (as well as for recreation, on top of running five days a week). Things on wheels with a diesel engine in them tend to be oversized and driven by lowlife assholes who threaten cyclists and other motorists. At times (such as when accelerating or otherwise loaded) they spew noxious black smoke from their unmanaged, unoptimized engines that run fine on 25 octane garbage due to the way they are designed, and are noisy as hell. The regulation for sulphur content in the fuel and the condition of diesel engines must be a joke in Canada. Definitely I don't see such black smoke coming out of trucks, or the pungent smell, in Japan, for instance. The trucks and buses smell similar to an indoor, household kerosene-burning heater, a bit like a paraffin candle; quite different from the acrid stench I'm used to smelling at home. So that's where I am on the diesel yes/no question.
quanticle 11y ago
Are they still running buses in the bus tunnel? My impression lately, with the way Sound Transit has been moving routes out of the bus tunnel is that the bus tunnel these days is more of a light-rail tunnel.
- techsupporter 11y ago
  Yes, buses are still in the transit tunnel. They'll be there until, current guess, 2019.
techsupporter 11y ago
That's as may be. My house is served by two trolley routes and I can go almost anywhere I want except northeast Seattle by trolley. Given a choice, I use the electric routes (for example, going to Ballard using the 44 instead of the 40). Move Seattle is supposed to fund more electrification of routes so maybe we get more wires in the next handful of years.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Ya, I was living in the U district for a long time, and they had a few trolleybuses through but they were mostly local routes through the hills. If you wanted to get to downtown, the 71/72/73 were diesel even though (at the time) they were capable of running on electric in the tunnel. Frankly, I wish they would just go with a decent tram system (like Portland and many European cities). I wonder why the don't consider electric buses with big batteries. We have a few of those in Beijing now, and they seem to work OK. I have no idea how long they have to be down for charging, however.
  - techsupporter 11y ago
    > I wonder why the don't consider electric buses with big batteries. Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/News/release/2016/February/17-battery-bus-launch.aspx http://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/News... http://seattletransitblog.com/2016/02/22/metros-battery-powered-proterra-buses-now-running-revenue-service/ http://seattletransitblog.com/2016/02/22/metros-battery-powe... Metro is running Proterra EV buses (like a Nissan Leaf writ very large) on routes 226 and 241 on the Eastside. So far the only charger is at Eastgate P&R so the routes served by the Proterras have to go through there. They are entirely run on batteries, no overhead wire or diesel engine, but their range is limited to about a ~20 mile route and they don't hold a charge well with steep hills. They take around 20 minutes to go from discharged to full and about 10 minutes to recharge from normal route usage. The new trolleys, separate from the Proterras, operating in Seattle now have batteries and can run off-wire for a few miles, including going up the 18% grade found at James St & 7th Ave. They're a lot better on hills and come in bendy-bus (articulated) styles that the Proterras currently don't have. We're trying to build more streetcars but there is astounding pushback against devoting street capacity to exclusive lanes for them. The First Hill Streetcar, that runs from the ID to Capitol Hill Link Station, goes up two-lane-with-bike-path Broadway...and is slower than walking during parts of the day. On the other hand, it will get monumentally more useful if the Central City Connector--a streetcar route from the ID to Westlake along 1st Ave in its own lanes--is built because the CCC will connect both streetcar routes. Personally, I'd love to see a dedicated-lane streetcar running between Mt Baker Station (Rainier Ave near Franklin HS) to University Link Station (just north of the ship canal along Montlake) on 23rd Ave. Cheaper than tunneling, in its own right-of-way, and running from, say, 5am to 1am every day of the week. That would be incredible and could easily replace route 48 with more capacity and better reliability. Sadly, I suspect I will be dead and gone before the Central District gets any kind of high-capacity transit.