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Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefull

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court knew this was apparently because of stories from Mali that claimed to not only have travelled across the atlantic by canoe, but also to have traded and waged war with people on the other side of the atlantic. Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim.

1123581321 11y ago
Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?
- AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
  I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created/dp/0307278247 http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created... Highly recommended!
  - xemoka 11y ago
    But please do start with 1492, also very excellent.
  - 1123581321 11y ago
    Thanks. Does that book cover the pre-Colombian African-South American interactions?
    - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
      Yes - very much so!
ekianjo 11y ago
> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.
- oinksoft 11y ago
  Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.
  - jbattle 11y ago
    There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.
    - oinksoft 11y ago
      Mali is on the west coast of Africa, so such an ocean crossing would not require rounding the Cape. They're also well-situated to take advantage of trade winds, and are at the point of the narrowest middle Atlantic crossing. So it's not so far-fetched that they could have made these trips.
    - jcranmer 11y ago
      The Polynesians managed to sail and colonize Hawaii at least as early as 1000, as well as colonizing places like Rapa Nui or New Zealand from a starting point of Fiji (and themselves descended from the Melanesians who started from Indonesia). They also probably managed to make it to South America and back, given their use of the South American sweet potato as a major staple. Hawaii, it should be noted, is a clear contender for "most remote place on the planet", given the lack of even small islands outside of the Hawaiian island channels for thousands of miles.
jernfrost 11y ago
A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings were actually there.
- sametmax 11y ago
  Espacially since Mali has no see access, at least in it's current borders.
  - blaabjerg 11y ago
    The current borders are irrelevant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#/media/File:WestAfrica1350.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#/media/File:WestAf...
- s_q_b 11y ago
  I would not bet that West African technology in the Middle Ages was leagues ahead of West African technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire Viking ships weren't that advanced. What they could do was navigate at sea better than their contemporaries, incredibly fierce armies that understood the phalanx, and by far most importantly, ships that were both seaworthy (for short spells), and had a shallow draft, which allowed them to sale up rivers. The Mali Empire left written records, clearly had more seaworthy ships, and some strange ambition with regard to the Atlantic. These are the basic undisputed facts. Then there are the Mali expeditions into the Atlantic. Consider, "The last Kolonkan ruler, Bata Manding Bory Keita, was crowned Mansa Abubakari Keita II in 1310. He continued the non-militant style of rule that characterized Gao and Mohammed ibn Gao Keita, but was interested in the empire's western sea. According to an account given by Mansa Musa Keita I, who during the reign of Abubakari Keita II served as the mansa's kankoro-sigui, Mali sent two expeditions into the Atlantic. Mansa Abubakari Keita II left Musa Keita as regent of the empire, demonstrating the stability of this period in Mali, and departed with the second expedition commanding some 4,000 pirogues equipped with both oars and sails in 1311. Neither the emperor nor any of the ships returned to Mali. Modern historians and scientists are skeptical about the success of either voyage, but the account of these happenings is preserved in both written North African records and the oral records of Mali's djelis." There's also very odd sculptures from around that time that suggest cross-pollination of native culture with African and Arab cultural practices, including ear-shaping and gauge earrings, which made widespread appearances in the Mali Empire and South America in the same time period. (1200-1300) The Mali Empire also had far larger ocean-going vessels, more knowledge of celestial navigation (although not the semi-mythical "sun stone" technology), and wrote down epics that seem every bit as credible as the Viking sagas. Someday I suspect we'll identify little dots of attempted colonies by various cultures in North America. I remember when the Viking visits were considered "racist myths."

1123581321 11y ago

Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?

AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created/dp/0307278247 http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created... Highly recommended!
- xemoka 11y ago
  But please do start with 1492, also very excellent.
- 1123581321 11y ago
  Thanks. Does that book cover the pre-Colombian African-South American interactions?
  - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
    Yes - very much so!

ekianjo 11y ago

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

oinksoft 11y ago
Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.
- jbattle 11y ago
  There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.
  - oinksoft 11y ago
    Mali is on the west coast of Africa, so such an ocean crossing would not require rounding the Cape. They're also well-situated to take advantage of trade winds, and are at the point of the narrowest middle Atlantic crossing. So it's not so far-fetched that they could have made these trips.
  - jcranmer 11y ago
    The Polynesians managed to sail and colonize Hawaii at least as early as 1000, as well as colonizing places like Rapa Nui or New Zealand from a starting point of Fiji (and themselves descended from the Melanesians who started from Indonesia). They also probably managed to make it to South America and back, given their use of the South American sweet potato as a major staple. Hawaii, it should be noted, is a clear contender for "most remote place on the planet", given the lack of even small islands outside of the Hawaiian island channels for thousands of miles.

jernfrost 11y ago

A bit strange though. I don't know what the Mali technology level was at the time but I would assume Vikings had far more advance ship and navigation technology as they are well known for that and it is well documented their extensive travels elsewhere in the world. Of course pretty much everybody claims to have been in America from Moroccans, Chinese to Irish. But still we only got solid evidence that the Vikings were actually there.

sametmax 11y ago
Espacially since Mali has no see access, at least in it's current borders.
- blaabjerg 11y ago
  The current borders are irrelevant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#/media/File:WestAfrica1350.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#/media/File:WestAf...
s_q_b 11y ago
I would not bet that West African technology in the Middle Ages was leagues ahead of West African technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire Viking ships weren't that advanced. What they could do was navigate at sea better than their contemporaries, incredibly fierce armies that understood the phalanx, and by far most importantly, ships that were both seaworthy (for short spells), and had a shallow draft, which allowed them to sale up rivers. The Mali Empire left written records, clearly had more seaworthy ships, and some strange ambition with regard to the Atlantic. These are the basic undisputed facts. Then there are the Mali expeditions into the Atlantic. Consider, "The last Kolonkan ruler, Bata Manding Bory Keita, was crowned Mansa Abubakari Keita II in 1310. He continued the non-militant style of rule that characterized Gao and Mohammed ibn Gao Keita, but was interested in the empire's western sea. According to an account given by Mansa Musa Keita I, who during the reign of Abubakari Keita II served as the mansa's kankoro-sigui, Mali sent two expeditions into the Atlantic. Mansa Abubakari Keita II left Musa Keita as regent of the empire, demonstrating the stability of this period in Mali, and departed with the second expedition commanding some 4,000 pirogues equipped with both oars and sails in 1311. Neither the emperor nor any of the ships returned to Mali. Modern historians and scientists are skeptical about the success of either voyage, but the account of these happenings is preserved in both written North African records and the oral records of Mali's djelis." There's also very odd sculptures from around that time that suggest cross-pollination of native culture with African and Arab cultural practices, including ear-shaping and gauge earrings, which made widespread appearances in the Mali Empire and South America in the same time period. (1200-1300) The Mali Empire also had far larger ocean-going vessels, more knowledge of celestial navigation (although not the semi-mythical "sun stone" technology), and wrote down epics that seem every bit as credible as the Viking sagas. Someday I suspect we'll identify little dots of attempted colonies by various cultures in North America. I remember when the Viking visits were considered "racist myths."