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In my view, programmer scores very high in the criteria mentioned: it's creative, non-repeating (to a degree) and collaborative in nature. It also pays well, an

In my view, programmer scores very high in the criteria mentioned: it's creative, non-repeating (to a degree) and collaborative in nature. It also pays well, and is in demand and pretty future proof. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-developer-is-a-great-career-choice/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev... http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/

amelius 11y ago
Yes, but every evening you are taking all of your problems home with you. Programming has a very high load on the memory. In contrast doctors and lawyers don't even have this kind of memory load. For example, medical records are mostly sufficient; we often understand if a doctor has to look things up; however, if a programmer doesn't remember how a program is structured, things get difficult quickly.
- mseebach 11y ago
  That's probably true for any creative work. It's difficult to imagine that, say, working on a large graphical design concept would not feel similar. But the point I want to make is that while I agree that many software engineering jobs are like this, they don't have to be: A well-structured agile project where tasks are properly broken down into sufficiently small units, you can generally achieve a kind of closure at the end of the day (tests are green, code is pushed, task is marked complete) that would allow you to reduce the memory load significantly. It's no small feat to successfully structure a process like this, and it definitely requires the support of the wider org, but know it can be done, because I worked on one. It was super-pleasant and rewarding.
  - amelius 11y ago
    That sounds like heaven, but indeed seems difficult to achieve. If you are in a one-dev operation, where the programmer cannot even quit because everything depends on him, then this is a completely different situation.
    - mseebach 11y ago
      If you're the one person an entire business depends on, it doesn't matter the least what your job title is, you're going to be carrying around some weight.
- hunterjrj 11y ago
  Isn't the difficulty a symptom of the lack of maturity in this industry? If documentation standards at every point in the SDLC were as rigorous as the standards present in the medical profession, would it still be a problem?
- IllegalAlien 11y ago
  You couldn't be more wrong. Lawyers take their work home with them every day. They never have any rest at all, because they have to respect certain deadlines and they have multiple clients breathing down their neck. Next to that, there's also the question of morality: Sometimes a lawyer has to make immoral decisions to get the right outcome. This is especially true in penal law. Doctors have to face the consequences of wrong diagnoses. If one of the patients dies because of an error the doctor made, you can be damn sure he'll carry that mistake with him for the rest of his life. Not only morally, but also legally and it could be a possible career killer. Programmers have it the easiest, they only have computational problems to worry about. While programming is without a doubt strenuous on the mind, it is by no means affected by morality and therefore incomparable to practicing law or medicine.
  - davak 11y ago
    As a physician and code slinger, I will say that I often worry about my patients, my servers, my partners, my code, my projects... Part of doing tough complex things is worrying if you are making the right decisions. If a patient dies inappropriately, that can be career ending. If my server crumbles or leaks private information, that too can be career ending.
    - IllegalAlien 11y ago
      While both could be career ending, a patient dying would probably make you feel a lot worse than a machine not doing what it should, right?
      - davak 11y ago
        In general, of course. But if you had a database of 1000s of people with STDs, how many lives might get destroyed if that got hacked?
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        ...and how many saved? Its a trolly-car problem.
- drdeadringer 11y ago
  > In contrast doctors and lawyers don't even have this kind of memory load. My father was a career ER doctor. He would not do it again because of the toll it took on him. It was very hard and demanding work physically and mentally and spiritually. Treated patients did get brought home as a load on the memory in his mind. Even now, over 10 years into retirement, there's a weight.
- awinter-py 11y ago
  legal documents are as complicated as programs, plus they depend on external inputs (i.e. 'laws', 'cases') which are in constant flux. plus think about how hard it is to program for edge cases (vs well-defined inputs). In a legal document, clauses are only 'executed' in edge cases. wacky right?
whybroke 11y ago
>future proof This term is too broad and so is misleading. There will indeed be programmers in the future but, more to the point, you will not be one owing to ageism.
- inanutshellus 11y ago
  Or techism. "This applicant has the stink of [foo tech stack] all over him. We'd have to retrain his whole tech knowledge-base and mindset. discard"
  - inanutshellus 11y ago
    ... since that's a pretty valid concern when hiring, I'd like to point out that it's specifically a bias you have to look out for in yourself. e.g. Are you projecting that "stink" onto someone? For example, if you hire a guy that doesn't know your JavaScript framework and build system, is that distinguishable from hiring a guy that doesn't even know JavaScript? From what I've seen, introducing an experienced engineer to an alien framework is just as difficult as hopping languages (that being, specifically: measurable, but not terrible, and as such you shouldn't discount someone for one but not the other).

amelius 11y ago

Yes, but every evening you are taking all of your problems home with you. Programming has a very high load on the memory. In contrast doctors and lawyers don't even have this kind of memory load. For example, medical records are mostly sufficient; we often understand if a doctor has to look things up; however, if a programmer doesn't remember how a program is structured, things get difficult quickly.

mseebach 11y ago
That's probably true for any creative work. It's difficult to imagine that, say, working on a large graphical design concept would not feel similar. But the point I want to make is that while I agree that many software engineering jobs are like this, they don't have to be: A well-structured agile project where tasks are properly broken down into sufficiently small units, you can generally achieve a kind of closure at the end of the day (tests are green, code is pushed, task is marked complete) that would allow you to reduce the memory load significantly. It's no small feat to successfully structure a process like this, and it definitely requires the support of the wider org, but know it can be done, because I worked on one. It was super-pleasant and rewarding.
- amelius 11y ago
  That sounds like heaven, but indeed seems difficult to achieve. If you are in a one-dev operation, where the programmer cannot even quit because everything depends on him, then this is a completely different situation.
  - mseebach 11y ago
    If you're the one person an entire business depends on, it doesn't matter the least what your job title is, you're going to be carrying around some weight.
hunterjrj 11y ago
Isn't the difficulty a symptom of the lack of maturity in this industry? If documentation standards at every point in the SDLC were as rigorous as the standards present in the medical profession, would it still be a problem?
IllegalAlien 11y ago
You couldn't be more wrong. Lawyers take their work home with them every day. They never have any rest at all, because they have to respect certain deadlines and they have multiple clients breathing down their neck. Next to that, there's also the question of morality: Sometimes a lawyer has to make immoral decisions to get the right outcome. This is especially true in penal law. Doctors have to face the consequences of wrong diagnoses. If one of the patients dies because of an error the doctor made, you can be damn sure he'll carry that mistake with him for the rest of his life. Not only morally, but also legally and it could be a possible career killer. Programmers have it the easiest, they only have computational problems to worry about. While programming is without a doubt strenuous on the mind, it is by no means affected by morality and therefore incomparable to practicing law or medicine.
- davak 11y ago
  As a physician and code slinger, I will say that I often worry about my patients, my servers, my partners, my code, my projects... Part of doing tough complex things is worrying if you are making the right decisions. If a patient dies inappropriately, that can be career ending. If my server crumbles or leaks private information, that too can be career ending.
  - IllegalAlien 11y ago
    While both could be career ending, a patient dying would probably make you feel a lot worse than a machine not doing what it should, right?
    - davak 11y ago
      In general, of course. But if you had a database of 1000s of people with STDs, how many lives might get destroyed if that got hacked?
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        ...and how many saved? Its a trolly-car problem.
drdeadringer 11y ago
> In contrast doctors and lawyers don't even have this kind of memory load. My father was a career ER doctor. He would not do it again because of the toll it took on him. It was very hard and demanding work physically and mentally and spiritually. Treated patients did get brought home as a load on the memory in his mind. Even now, over 10 years into retirement, there's a weight.
awinter-py 11y ago
legal documents are as complicated as programs, plus they depend on external inputs (i.e. 'laws', 'cases') which are in constant flux. plus think about how hard it is to program for edge cases (vs well-defined inputs). In a legal document, clauses are only 'executed' in edge cases. wacky right?

whybroke 11y ago

>future proof This term is too broad and so is misleading. There will indeed be programmers in the future but, more to the point, you will not be one owing to ageism.

inanutshellus 11y ago
Or techism. "This applicant has the stink of [foo tech stack] all over him. We'd have to retrain his whole tech knowledge-base and mindset. discard"
- inanutshellus 11y ago
  ... since that's a pretty valid concern when hiring, I'd like to point out that it's specifically a bias you have to look out for in yourself. e.g. Are you projecting that "stink" onto someone? For example, if you hire a guy that doesn't know your JavaScript framework and build system, is that distinguishable from hiring a guy that doesn't even know JavaScript? From what I've seen, introducing an experienced engineer to an alien framework is just as difficult as hopping languages (that being, specifically: measurable, but not terrible, and as such you shouldn't discount someone for one but not the other).