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I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norw

I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. If the knowledge was completely lost then it had not influence on history. A failed settlement in Canada which nobody ever learned about makes no difference whether it happened or not. From what we know thus far it caused no technology transfer to the native americans and there is no proof it advanced european discovery in any way. I am Norwegian, so I kind of have a vested interest in seeing something that gives the Viking discovery some sort of purpose.

parennoob 11y ago
> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first contact is more or at least as significant as whether or not it helped "European discovery". For example, it could have been Polynesians being in extensive contact with South America – which would have zilch to do with Europe, but would still be very significant.
- wavefunction 11y ago
  There's evidence as others have pointed out of African expeditions and I've read about evidence of Chinese and Polynesian contact with South America so I'm not sure it was quite as drastic a gulf as you propose.
  - cmrdporcupine 11y ago
    No significant gene flow, so quite a drastic gulf. The fact that populations in the Americas were decimated by disease after contact should be enough to show how significant it was.
  - parennoob 11y ago
    I did mention the possibility of Polynesian contact in my comment. But neither this nor the Chinese contact has been comprehensively proved, especially not with archaeological evidence.
  - runarberg 11y ago
    Not to mention numerous migrations over the Bering, one of the most resent, the Inuit migration, happened around the same time as the Norse explorations.
- jernfrost 11y ago
  I don't know what your metric for significance is, but for me it is related to the extent of change of history it causes. A Viking discovery which did not influence Columbus in any way is IMO of tiny significance, because whether it happened or not would have made no impact on history. Colombus discovery of America in contrast caused a dramatic change to development of world history. It could be claimed it was one of the major factors in European world dominance which has affected pretty much every society on the planet the last hundred years. I am saying this as a Norwegian. As much as I'd loved the Viking discovery of America to mean a lot it is completely overshadowed by the dramatic impact of Columbus discovery on later world events. Of course there are alternative ways in which Viking discovery could have been important without influencing Columbus. E.g. if they caused significant changes to native American culture, technology etc. But they seem to have had zero influence on native american culture. They were simply too few people to make any sort of influence.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- deepnet 11y ago
  First contact may have infected that continent with virulent European pathogens. Recent discoveries suggest the Americas were vastly more populated but wiped out by viruses. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302...
Htsthbjig 11y ago
Where did you hear that story, in Norway? Had he had information about the Vikings, he would had used the Viking route going around the coast that is way easier than strait on the Ocean. Don't you believe?. In Columbus times, there were real stories of manmade and natural objects on the beach(Portugal and Spanish beaches) after strong storms, that were not native from Spain and Portugal. Those stories are documented on Spanish documentation. The Indias archive contains an incredible amount of documentation. Columbus probably had some hints that there was something at America's distance, because he used that distance in order to calculate the earth radius if it(America) this were Japan. But he was totally wrong on what it was(thankfully). In X century there were accurate records of earth radius but Colombus uses a new value considering America's distance as the extreme of the world, because Colombus believed that was the Indias(India, Japan...). Why he used this value? We don't know.
- restalis 11y ago
  Also, it's worth remembering that Columbus wasn't trying to discover America, he was just trying to find another route to India. Whatever might one have learned about Vikings' achievements in Columbus time it definitely sounded like something very different from the highly sought India!
0x07c0 11y ago
Thor Heyerdahl had this theory, Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is from. Bonde means farmer (In Norwegian), Columbus apparently means something of the same. He should then know about Vinland (name of America given by Norse explorer) from his family roots in Norway. I also think part of the theory also was him being a period (some years)aboard a Danish or Norwegian ship, this would have given him hint of a land on the other side of the ocean. Also there are Danish tax records stating that the fishing banks outside New Foundland was taxed by the Danish crown, from before Columbus. There are also tails of Norse-Indian settlements encountered by early settlers.. And I think some one found a Indian skeleton in Denmark or Norway some years back. Only article I found.. (In Norwegian) http://tux1.aftenposten.no/kul_und/kultur/d105453.htm http://tux1.aftenposten.no/kul_und/kultur/d105453.htm Some more sources here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_the_Amer...
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some other ethnic group (theirs, coincidentally!) actually discovered America.
  - elcapitan 11y ago
    Everybody knows that Columbus was German!
    - jo6gwb 11y ago
      In 1492 Columbus was a Jew.
douche 11y ago
I think the more probable connection for Columbus would be the Basque cod fishermen that were fishing off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland years before he sailed the ocean blue.
- masklinn 11y ago
  They were notoriously highly secretive about their far-flung fishing grounds as it gave them pretty significant monetary advantages.
- jernfrost 11y ago
  That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.
  - maaku 11y ago
    Tax records.
    - astrodust 11y ago
      Captains of the era were known for keeping meticulous navigational and meteorological records. Did this hold true even for those indulging in secret activities?
      - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
        This my speculation, but it's more than likely that they did. The sea will kill you if you aren't careful, and even when you are. Sharing records with other captains may save your life someday. Recordkeeping at sea has a long tradition.
        dalke 11y ago
        Some more speculation - the crew wants to get paid, so the captain has to keep good records of the catch else the crew will get angry, making it harder to find good crew for future trips.
INTPenis 11y ago
Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court knew this was apparently because of stories from Mali that claimed to not only have travelled across the atlantic by canoe, but also to have traded and waged war with people on the other side of the atlantic. Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim.
- 1123581321 11y ago
  Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?
  - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
    I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created/dp/0307278247 http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created... Highly recommended!
    - xemoka 11y ago
      But please do start with 1492, also very excellent.
    - 1123581321 11y ago
      Thanks. Does that book cover the pre-Colombian African-South American interactions?
      - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
        Yes - very much so!
- 11y ago

parennoob 11y ago

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first contact is more or at least as significant as whether or not it helped "European discovery". For example, it could have been Polynesians being in extensive contact with South America – which would have zilch to do with Europe, but would still be very significant.

wavefunction 11y ago
There's evidence as others have pointed out of African expeditions and I've read about evidence of Chinese and Polynesian contact with South America so I'm not sure it was quite as drastic a gulf as you propose.
- cmrdporcupine 11y ago
  No significant gene flow, so quite a drastic gulf. The fact that populations in the Americas were decimated by disease after contact should be enough to show how significant it was.
- parennoob 11y ago
  I did mention the possibility of Polynesian contact in my comment. But neither this nor the Chinese contact has been comprehensively proved, especially not with archaeological evidence.
- runarberg 11y ago
  Not to mention numerous migrations over the Bering, one of the most resent, the Inuit migration, happened around the same time as the Norse explorations.
jernfrost 11y ago
I don't know what your metric for significance is, but for me it is related to the extent of change of history it causes. A Viking discovery which did not influence Columbus in any way is IMO of tiny significance, because whether it happened or not would have made no impact on history. Colombus discovery of America in contrast caused a dramatic change to development of world history. It could be claimed it was one of the major factors in European world dominance which has affected pretty much every society on the planet the last hundred years. I am saying this as a Norwegian. As much as I'd loved the Viking discovery of America to mean a lot it is completely overshadowed by the dramatic impact of Columbus discovery on later world events. Of course there are alternative ways in which Viking discovery could have been important without influencing Columbus. E.g. if they caused significant changes to native American culture, technology etc. But they seem to have had zero influence on native american culture. They were simply too few people to make any sort of influence.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
deepnet 11y ago
First contact may have infected that continent with virulent European pathogens. Recent discoveries suggest the Americas were vastly more populated but wiped out by viruses. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302...

Htsthbjig 11y ago

Where did you hear that story, in Norway? Had he had information about the Vikings, he would had used the Viking route going around the coast that is way easier than strait on the Ocean. Don't you believe?. In Columbus times, there were real stories of manmade and natural objects on the beach(Portugal and Spanish beaches) after strong storms, that were not native from Spain and Portugal. Those stories are documented on Spanish documentation. The Indias archive contains an incredible amount of documentation. Columbus probably had some hints that there was something at America's distance, because he used that distance in order to calculate the earth radius if it(America) this were Japan. But he was totally wrong on what it was(thankfully). In X century there were accurate records of earth radius but Colombus uses a new value considering America's distance as the extreme of the world, because Colombus believed that was the Indias(India, Japan...). Why he used this value? We don't know.

restalis 11y ago
Also, it's worth remembering that Columbus wasn't trying to discover America, he was just trying to find another route to India. Whatever might one have learned about Vikings' achievements in Columbus time it definitely sounded like something very different from the highly sought India!

0x07c0 11y ago

Thor Heyerdahl had this theory, Columbus did not go to Norway but his family is of the Norwegian Nobel Bonde family. They lost a power struggle, and had to go abroad, to Genova . This as I recall is based on a book written by a family member of Columbus, think the brother(if he had one). Stating that the name of the family is not from Italy, but it a Latinifaction of the original language from where the family is from. Bonde means farmer (In Norwegian), Columbus apparently means something of the same. He should then know about Vinland (name of America given by Norse explorer) from his family roots in Norway. I also think part of the theory also was him being a period (some years)aboard a Danish or Norwegian ship, this would have given him hint of a land on the other side of the ocean. Also there are Danish tax records stating that the fishing banks outside New Foundland was taxed by the Danish crown, from before Columbus. There are also tails of Norse-Indian settlements encountered by early settlers.. And I think some one found a Indian skeleton in Denmark or Norway some years back. Only article I found.. (In Norwegian) http://tux1.aftenposten.no/kul_und/kultur/d105453.htm http://tux1.aftenposten.no/kul_und/kultur/d105453.htm Some more sources here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_colonization_of_the_Amer...

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some other ethnic group (theirs, coincidentally!) actually discovered America.
- elcapitan 11y ago
  Everybody knows that Columbus was German!
  - jo6gwb 11y ago
    In 1492 Columbus was a Jew.

douche 11y ago

I think the more probable connection for Columbus would be the Basque cod fishermen that were fishing off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland years before he sailed the ocean blue.

masklinn 11y ago
They were notoriously highly secretive about their far-flung fishing grounds as it gave them pretty significant monetary advantages.
jernfrost 11y ago
That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.
- maaku 11y ago
  Tax records.
  - astrodust 11y ago
    Captains of the era were known for keeping meticulous navigational and meteorological records. Did this hold true even for those indulging in secret activities?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      This my speculation, but it's more than likely that they did. The sea will kill you if you aren't careful, and even when you are. Sharing records with other captains may save your life someday. Recordkeeping at sea has a long tradition.
      - dalke 11y ago
        Some more speculation - the crew wants to get paid, so the captain has to keep good records of the catch else the crew will get angry, making it harder to find good crew for future trips.

INTPenis 11y ago

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court knew this was apparently because of stories from Mali that claimed to not only have travelled across the atlantic by canoe, but also to have traded and waged war with people on the other side of the atlantic. Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim.

1123581321 11y ago
Interesting. Can you recommend a book about this?
- AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
  I recently finished 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created. http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created/dp/0307278247 http://www.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created... Highly recommended!
  - xemoka 11y ago
    But please do start with 1492, also very excellent.
  - 1123581321 11y ago
    Thanks. Does that book cover the pre-Colombian African-South American interactions?
    - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
      Yes - very much so!
11y ago