7 ms·

I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them g

by dcw303 11y ago

I'm still coding after almost 20 years in the job, and have no intention of stopping. I tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur. None of them give me the thrill that I get from programming. I still get locked into a flow where time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed. The only other activity that does that is Civ, and no-one is going to pay me to play that ;) If 10x assets is what drives you, more power to you. For me, being happy right now is more important that any imagined future happiness that a fat bank account could provide. And let's be honest, you can still make a pretty decent salary as a developer. You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today.

henrik_w 11y ago
So true! I've been programming professionally for 25 years, still love it! http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ Also, it's easy to forget that being a SW developer today has a lot going for it - especially the demand. At least here in Stockholm, if you are good at what you do, you can pick and chose where to work. So no reason to stay at a place where you are not happy. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-developer-is-a-great-career-choice/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev...
pjmlp 11y ago
Same here, but it is a big fight to convince the others why you want to stay that way. Right now I get the feeling that long term, going consulting might be the only option left as regular companies tend to only keep juniors coding. > You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today. Just for this remark I wish I could have upvoted you more than once. This is something that those that live for the job, without paying attention to family and friends seem to forget.
- buserror 11y ago
  Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people. And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is... Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for me. People for whom this is not a calling will never be /really/ good at it (for one thing, they don't spend their spare time doing it!) and eventually gravitate out of it. But the ones for whom it is a calling, well, sod the money, give me some nice project/people to work on/with and I'm happy. Or, do that but also get the money by going consulting. That's what I do for the last few years. It's quite exciting being a 'mercenary' in a way, and you can dissociate yourself from the companies/products and focus on the engineering.
  - woofyman 11y ago
    I'll be 57 in 3 months. I've been coding professionally for 35 years.
    - buserror 11y ago
      I started working at 17. So that's 30 years for me! Darn, I should have some sort of celebration ;-) My very first paid project was designing the PA audio system in the Lille (france) metro. It was a fancy Mac SE/30 with a IEEE GPIO card. That was driving two big Revox Tape machines, and was playing one, rewinding the other etc. Occasionally it would also play a digital audio file (w000t!). It was all in Pascal at the time, and I had a whooping 4MB of ram. System ran for well over 10 years!
      - woofyman 11y ago
        My first program was written in Dartmouth Basic. The original version of Basic. In college, for the first 2 years I used punched cards. Then after college I programmed a jet fighter. Then realtime embedded avioinics stuff. I got tired of working with custom hardware which was challenging distinguishing between hardware and software bugs. After 20 years of Windows programming, I re-invented myself as a HTML, CSS, CoffeeScript, Javascript, LUA, PHP, Angular, Ember and iOS developer.
        joshmanders 11y ago
        Thanks guys, you all make me feel better about turning 31 in a month and a half and have been coding since 15.
        valine 11y ago
        I stated coding when I was 11. I turned 19 a couple months ago. I guess that makes me one of those junior developers everyone talks about.
        11y ago
bucma 11y ago
I think people who are picking up on the 10x assets thing are missing the point... Money can help you feel better about things when things in general aren't going well. What he says about missed opportunities, and working for idiotic management, that's the big thing here. You work your ass off, the management does dumb things, so the thing you're working on never really pays off, in money or fun. The fact that his sister has 10x the assets is kind of an insult after injury kind of thing.
- justaman 11y ago
  I think the disconnect between management and the developers is worth discussing. Its important for management to understand the difficulties and decisions made by a development team to properly create a roadmap for the business. I think the author is expressing that the lack of respect for the programmers opinions can be detrimental.
  - exelius 11y ago
    It's more that in a business (which is a power structure optimized for efficiency - meaning hierarchical power structure) the programmers are at the bottom of the pyramid. Involving their input would take far too many layers of overhead; so the decisions get made further up where there are fewer people to consult (and hence more efficient). IMO it is essential in today's world to have competent engineering management in the room whenever any major product decisions are made.
    - collyw 11y ago
      This is probably why there is so much poor software about.
- devonkim 11y ago
  That sounds like the underlying problem at heart and is why I started down the path of being more customer facing (combined with getting quickly tired of all the nerd stereotype personalities as my immediate coworkers). The reward for incompetence and the perception-driven careers that is so common with professional managers is a slap in the face to everyone that not only are under them but to those that have to live with the consequences of their negligence. There are some that get kicked down, but typically they'll just find another sucker and continue on and on with self delusion that they've actually brought any value besides some vague association with some rich people to the company. The problem that really bugs me as well as a lot of others is perhaps more deep-seated - that the popular kids from high school really do win anyway and become your bosses, and stories like Steve Wozniak or Bill Gates where smart, technical people can get ahead of the incompetent but very personable charlatans are becoming less and less common. That confidence / arrogance really are enough to succeed (many do work hard but so do the majority of technical workers too with almost none of the rewards) in the eyes of US society is a lingering thought.
andyjohnson0 11y ago
I'm in my late forties and have been a professional developer for 25+ years. I agree with what you said in your comment, but this stood out: "You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today." This is not a bad way to live, but as I get older I am increasingly aware that there will be a day when I'm dead tomorrow. And for that reason I'm increasingly less interested in spending time in the state where "time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed." Instead I want to fill those hours with real-time concious, experienced enjoyment. Because I can't live them again. Being in the zone and cranking out great code still feels good, but only at the time. Which I guess makes me conflicted or something. Thank you for making me think about this.
- matwood 11y ago
  I'm only in my late 30s, but have also been thinking a lot about this. I see older people and wonder what they are thinking. Are they happy with the choices they made, the memories they have? What will I think when I'm 50, 60, 70? Then I remember how lucky I am. I started with next to nothing, worked through college, and now basically get paid to play with computers all day (something I would have done for free anyways). I get to travel and have other amazing experiences. Biggie said it best, "when I was dead broke man, I couldn't picture this". One of the reasons I think programmers always end up in this existential plight is that we are successful enough to have time to think about it. When I was young and worried about eating or having enough money to put gas in the car so I could get to work or school (or even having a car) I never thought about these things.
  - listingboat 11y ago
    Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
- donatj 11y ago
  I'm about to turn 30 in just over a month. I got my first programming job at 20 and am seriously wondering where my twenties went? Honestly it terrifies me how quickly they went. All of my twenties went about as fast as tenth grade. I blame the time shift of programming. I hear about all the adventures my wife had before we met and just think "well I was busy programming". Since getting married in September I have spent much less of my home time programming. I've gone from initially resentful to grateful more recently. Time seems to have slowed.
serge2k 11y ago
It's less the 10x assets (although yes, I want 10x assets!) as it is the chance to really influence something and drive your vision more.
robodale 11y ago
I like the cut of your jib.
fefifofu 11y ago
The thing is, you "tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur". I think "trying" is the key. It helps you be more satisfied with the road you are on when you've been on the other roads (at least a for a little bit).
audleman 11y ago
The author states that he won't be able to retire. I find that hard to believe; programming is fairly lucrative.
tetraodonpuffer 11y ago
there is also 'you might become too sick to work, but not sick enough to die tomorrow' which is what makes me more and more worried as I get older and society provides less and less safety nets To me the 'my sister has 10x the assets' is like saying 'my sister is going to be ok in her retirement years, while I hope I'll be able to keep working for as long as I need to', but maybe I am reading that through the lens of my concerns/fears

by dcw303 11y ago

henrik_w 11y ago

So true! I've been programming professionally for 25 years, still love it! http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ http://henrikwarne.com/2012/06/02/why-i-love-coding/ Also, it's easy to forget that being a SW developer today has a lot going for it - especially the demand. At least here in Stockholm, if you are good at what you do, you can pick and chose where to work. So no reason to stay at a place where you are not happy. http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-developer-is-a-great-career-choice/ http://henrikwarne.com/2014/12/08/5-reasons-why-software-dev...

pjmlp 11y ago

Same here, but it is a big fight to convince the others why you want to stay that way. Right now I get the feeling that long term, going consulting might be the only option left as regular companies tend to only keep juniors coding. > You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today. Just for this remark I wish I could have upvoted you more than once. This is something that those that live for the job, without paying attention to family and friends seem to forget.

buserror 11y ago
Likewise here. I'm 47, been programming since I'm 12. I'm very good at it. I also know I'd be a bad manager, unless I work with /very/ good people. And yes, Ican relate to the article; I've seen (I still see) junior managers who can barely tie their shoes make more money than excellent engineers with 25y experience, but that's the way the world is... Basically 'engineer'/'programmer' is a calling for some; it is for me. People for whom this is not a calling will never be /really/ good at it (for one thing, they don't spend their spare time doing it!) and eventually gravitate out of it. But the ones for whom it is a calling, well, sod the money, give me some nice project/people to work on/with and I'm happy. Or, do that but also get the money by going consulting. That's what I do for the last few years. It's quite exciting being a 'mercenary' in a way, and you can dissociate yourself from the companies/products and focus on the engineering.
- woofyman 11y ago
  I'll be 57 in 3 months. I've been coding professionally for 35 years.
  - buserror 11y ago
    I started working at 17. So that's 30 years for me! Darn, I should have some sort of celebration ;-) My very first paid project was designing the PA audio system in the Lille (france) metro. It was a fancy Mac SE/30 with a IEEE GPIO card. That was driving two big Revox Tape machines, and was playing one, rewinding the other etc. Occasionally it would also play a digital audio file (w000t!). It was all in Pascal at the time, and I had a whooping 4MB of ram. System ran for well over 10 years!
    - woofyman 11y ago
      My first program was written in Dartmouth Basic. The original version of Basic. In college, for the first 2 years I used punched cards. Then after college I programmed a jet fighter. Then realtime embedded avioinics stuff. I got tired of working with custom hardware which was challenging distinguishing between hardware and software bugs. After 20 years of Windows programming, I re-invented myself as a HTML, CSS, CoffeeScript, Javascript, LUA, PHP, Angular, Ember and iOS developer.
      - joshmanders 11y ago
        Thanks guys, you all make me feel better about turning 31 in a month and a half and have been coding since 15.
        valine 11y ago
        I stated coding when I was 11. I turned 19 a couple months ago. I guess that makes me one of those junior developers everyone talks about.
        11y ago

bucma 11y ago

I think people who are picking up on the 10x assets thing are missing the point... Money can help you feel better about things when things in general aren't going well. What he says about missed opportunities, and working for idiotic management, that's the big thing here. You work your ass off, the management does dumb things, so the thing you're working on never really pays off, in money or fun. The fact that his sister has 10x the assets is kind of an insult after injury kind of thing.

justaman 11y ago
I think the disconnect between management and the developers is worth discussing. Its important for management to understand the difficulties and decisions made by a development team to properly create a roadmap for the business. I think the author is expressing that the lack of respect for the programmers opinions can be detrimental.
- exelius 11y ago
  It's more that in a business (which is a power structure optimized for efficiency - meaning hierarchical power structure) the programmers are at the bottom of the pyramid. Involving their input would take far too many layers of overhead; so the decisions get made further up where there are fewer people to consult (and hence more efficient). IMO it is essential in today's world to have competent engineering management in the room whenever any major product decisions are made.
  - collyw 11y ago
    This is probably why there is so much poor software about.
devonkim 11y ago
That sounds like the underlying problem at heart and is why I started down the path of being more customer facing (combined with getting quickly tired of all the nerd stereotype personalities as my immediate coworkers). The reward for incompetence and the perception-driven careers that is so common with professional managers is a slap in the face to everyone that not only are under them but to those that have to live with the consequences of their negligence. There are some that get kicked down, but typically they'll just find another sucker and continue on and on with self delusion that they've actually brought any value besides some vague association with some rich people to the company. The problem that really bugs me as well as a lot of others is perhaps more deep-seated - that the popular kids from high school really do win anyway and become your bosses, and stories like Steve Wozniak or Bill Gates where smart, technical people can get ahead of the incompetent but very personable charlatans are becoming less and less common. That confidence / arrogance really are enough to succeed (many do work hard but so do the majority of technical workers too with almost none of the rewards) in the eyes of US society is a lingering thought.

andyjohnson0 11y ago

I'm in my late forties and have been a professional developer for 25+ years. I agree with what you said in your comment, but this stood out: "You might be dead tomorrow; you might as well enjoy today." This is not a bad way to live, but as I get older I am increasingly aware that there will be a day when I'm dead tomorrow. And for that reason I'm increasingly less interested in spending time in the state where "time shifts, and before I know it hours have passed." Instead I want to fill those hours with real-time concious, experienced enjoyment. Because I can't live them again. Being in the zone and cranking out great code still feels good, but only at the time. Which I guess makes me conflicted or something. Thank you for making me think about this.

matwood 11y ago
I'm only in my late 30s, but have also been thinking a lot about this. I see older people and wonder what they are thinking. Are they happy with the choices they made, the memories they have? What will I think when I'm 50, 60, 70? Then I remember how lucky I am. I started with next to nothing, worked through college, and now basically get paid to play with computers all day (something I would have done for free anyways). I get to travel and have other amazing experiences. Biggie said it best, "when I was dead broke man, I couldn't picture this". One of the reasons I think programmers always end up in this existential plight is that we are successful enough to have time to think about it. When I was young and worried about eating or having enough money to put gas in the car so I could get to work or school (or even having a car) I never thought about these things.
- listingboat 11y ago
  Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
donatj 11y ago
I'm about to turn 30 in just over a month. I got my first programming job at 20 and am seriously wondering where my twenties went? Honestly it terrifies me how quickly they went. All of my twenties went about as fast as tenth grade. I blame the time shift of programming. I hear about all the adventures my wife had before we met and just think "well I was busy programming". Since getting married in September I have spent much less of my home time programming. I've gone from initially resentful to grateful more recently. Time seems to have slowed.

serge2k 11y ago

It's less the 10x assets (although yes, I want 10x assets!) as it is the chance to really influence something and drive your vision more.

robodale 11y ago

I like the cut of your jib.

fefifofu 11y ago

The thing is, you "tried some other options - teacher, artist, entrepreneur". I think "trying" is the key. It helps you be more satisfied with the road you are on when you've been on the other roads (at least a for a little bit).

audleman 11y ago

The author states that he won't be able to retire. I find that hard to believe; programming is fairly lucrative.

tetraodonpuffer 11y ago

there is also 'you might become too sick to work, but not sick enough to die tomorrow' which is what makes me more and more worried as I get older and society provides less and less safety nets To me the 'my sister has 10x the assets' is like saying 'my sister is going to be ok in her retirement years, while I hope I'll be able to keep working for as long as I need to', but maybe I am reading that through the lens of my concerns/fears