12 ms·

Regrets as a programmer: 1. Every piece of unpolished, unfinished code that management decided should ship to the customers regardless 2. Ever using node and n

Regrets as a programmer: 1. Every piece of unpolished, unfinished code that management decided should ship to the customers regardless 2. Ever using node and npm. 3. Seeing and living through the train wreck of J2EE and the XML horrors that ensued. 4. Not seeing the beauty in simple functions early on. Not everything needs to be a class or module. 5. Most business problems are political/social - regret every time we were called in to try and provide a "technical" band aid to those same problems. 6. Again, any project with node and npm.

daxfohl 11y ago
>1. Every piece of unpolished, unfinished code that management decided should ship to the customers regardless Looking back, I view this as a pro. You get to work on more projects that way. I spent five years working with an "ideal" manager that trusted coders to make the deadlines. When I look back on that, while it was the only time I've ever gotten to code things to "perfection", it was also a big black hole of working on a single project for way longer than it really needed. Of course there's a limit beyond which the lack of polish and finish makes everyone less happy.
- seivan 11y ago
  I'm currently in this situation. My manager(s) and colleagues have been angels and incredibly patient with me rewriting the same library several times. I just need to get this out of my system and they seem to have understood. But you're right, it's not always best to set your own limits.
- trvz 11y ago
  That is a very reckless attitude - people will use that software, and lose much more time on the problems than it would've taken for the programmers to fix them. And then we go and criticise Apple and other upstream vendors for doing the same thing…
rajeemcariazo 11y ago
could you elaborate more about using node and npm
- forgottenacc56 11y ago
  I used to hate npm with the burning heat of a thousand supernovas. I think maybe they changed the way it works because now it tends to work instead of assaulting you viciously with a massive cascade of dependency errors every time you try to install a package. Until recently it was quite the absolute worst experience of software ever for me and I used DOS and Windows 1.0. Every time I realized I had to use npm I would be filled with deep dread and the knowledge that I was about to have my time burned in a bonfire of errors, confusion and complexity. Someone needs to make a sincere apology for npm. Why has it not bothered me lately? Either it has been improved or I am using it differently somehow.
  - davidgl 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness :D
    - pmarreck 11y ago
      When I learned of this concept in college, I suddenly realized why it was so hard to convince Windows people to go Mac. ;)
  - antoniuschan99 11y ago
    Were the issues way back in 2012/2013?
- romanovcode 11y ago
  Javascript was designed so that clown on your website moves when you click on it.
  - forgottenacc56 11y ago
the_papa 11y ago
why you don't like node? No papa for you.
- davidhariri 11y ago
  papa bless
eru 11y ago
> 5. Most business problems are political/social - regret every time we were called in to try and provide a "technical" band aid to those same problems. Why? Social and political problems are really hard to solve. If you can use technology to sidestep them, that's exactly the right way to do it.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- sokoloff 11y ago
  I think GP was suggesting that technical bandaids were being placed on compound fracture type injuries, rather than addressing the root issue. If you sidestep the problems entirely, sure, but I think that's the minority of cases where a genuinely hard social/political problem exists, a technical approach attempted, and the outcomes measured. We can all readily recall Uber as an example in the positive direction. What we are worse at is seeing or recalling the hundreds of times humans struggled with a technical solution that hacked away at the visible leaves while the root remained unaddressed.
- davidgl 11y ago
  That's the problem, you can't solve people problems with technology, god knows I've seen enough people try ...
- amirmc 11y ago
  I've been in many situations where people thought that the solution lay in something technical, whereas the actual issue was social/cultural. In the worst case, time and energy is spent on the technical thing, which then simply fails when it hits the 'market' (so to speak). In the best case, the technical solution papers over a few cracks and merely kicks the can down the road.
- VLM 11y ago
  OP must be very young. In corporate environments there is no sidestepping. Say there's 20 pounds of work for 10 pounds of (recently downsized) people across multiple departments. The way you'd like to see technology work is turn 20 pound of work into 10 or less pounds of work for the entire company. The way technology is actually used in the real corporate world is your boss has you automate procedures and policies such that you push work out of your department and onto even more overloaded competing departments. That's how the strongest competitors are determined for promotion and bonus. To some extent its a startup vs old company problem. Trust me, if technology could be applied to solve the whole company wide problem, grandpa would have already done it with punchcards decades ago, the only innovation that happens in old companies is pushing work and blame onto other departments. Hey, I have a number that proves we're now better, and that's all that matters. The other way it works is as a weapon / scapegoat. They don't wanna work with us and I don't want to force them, or can't make them. But I can tell my programmer to change the bounds checking on that input field and they'll be forced to cooperate or shut down. If it works and they cooperate with us, I'll take the credit, if it fails, I'll blame and fire the programmer. Or if you don't want them to work with us (as in dump work on us) the programmer can sabotage their system, and again you can guess the different pathways for reward and punishment.
a_imho 11y ago
>5. Most business problems are political/social Very insightful. Wondering why it is not discussed more often with so many snake oilers selling their silver bullets.
- edraferi 11y ago
  It's a lot simpler to throw money at technology than actually face policy / culture problems.
  - crasco 11y ago
    This is so true. It also explains the revolving door of CIO/CTOs at many places. Every 3-5 years, a new one comes in, makes minor changes and avoids the elephant in the room. On and on we go.
    - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
      Politics at every level is nowhere close to being a solved problem. Most business training still seems to rely on parables and cool stories, larded with huge doses of Standard Business Vocabulary to make it convincing (win, compete, achieve, aspire, excel, lead, inspire, and on and on.) If people really knew what they were doing there would be a lot less noise and a lot more quiet wise action.
anysz 11y ago
I'd like to tip my hat off to this contemporary masterpiece of fine trolling. A truly exquisite feat of engineering.
smikhanov 11y ago
Granted, in a decade, if you'll still be in this profession, you'll remember J2EE and XML and Node and npm and pip and git and Golang and JavaScript and code polish and functions-vs-methods debate as tiny specks on what actually constitutes you career. The author of the linked article tries analyzing his entire life from a standpoint of being a programmer, and your comment analyzes last few years of your life staring at /r/programming. Can't believe this comment made it to the top.
- dinkumthinkum 11y ago
  I agree completely with you. I think the answer is you can't help some people. It's just sort of a myopic view. Could you imagine in 50 years someone asks you what regret you had about your career and you said "that I ever used node that one week in 2015"? I mean, wow.
  - pekk 11y ago
    If you spent a couple years building everything you could on top of Node and then realized you completely disagreed with some of its basic design then that would be a memorable experience. This may be hard to understand if you are still in love with Javascript.
    - aplummer 11y ago
      I don't know, I see disliking my old work as a good sign of engineering growth, and hating old decisions as personal / professional work...
  - saeranv 11y ago
    Or, it could be an indication that they've had a pretty good career with only trivial regrets. That's how I read it.
assocguilt 11y ago
Oh shit boy, these other comments schooled you!
- dang 11y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com.
leshow 11y ago
> ever using node and npm so you regret writing anything modern for the web?

daxfohl 11y ago

>1. Every piece of unpolished, unfinished code that management decided should ship to the customers regardless Looking back, I view this as a pro. You get to work on more projects that way. I spent five years working with an "ideal" manager that trusted coders to make the deadlines. When I look back on that, while it was the only time I've ever gotten to code things to "perfection", it was also a big black hole of working on a single project for way longer than it really needed. Of course there's a limit beyond which the lack of polish and finish makes everyone less happy.

seivan 11y ago
I'm currently in this situation. My manager(s) and colleagues have been angels and incredibly patient with me rewriting the same library several times. I just need to get this out of my system and they seem to have understood. But you're right, it's not always best to set your own limits.
trvz 11y ago
That is a very reckless attitude - people will use that software, and lose much more time on the problems than it would've taken for the programmers to fix them. And then we go and criticise Apple and other upstream vendors for doing the same thing…

rajeemcariazo 11y ago

could you elaborate more about using node and npm

forgottenacc56 11y ago
I used to hate npm with the burning heat of a thousand supernovas. I think maybe they changed the way it works because now it tends to work instead of assaulting you viciously with a massive cascade of dependency errors every time you try to install a package. Until recently it was quite the absolute worst experience of software ever for me and I used DOS and Windows 1.0. Every time I realized I had to use npm I would be filled with deep dread and the knowledge that I was about to have my time burned in a bonfire of errors, confusion and complexity. Someone needs to make a sincere apology for npm. Why has it not bothered me lately? Either it has been improved or I am using it differently somehow.
- davidgl 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness :D
  - pmarreck 11y ago
    When I learned of this concept in college, I suddenly realized why it was so hard to convince Windows people to go Mac. ;)
- antoniuschan99 11y ago
  Were the issues way back in 2012/2013?
romanovcode 11y ago
Javascript was designed so that clown on your website moves when you click on it.
- forgottenacc56 11y ago

the_papa 11y ago

why you don't like node? No papa for you.

davidhariri 11y ago
papa bless

eru 11y ago

> 5. Most business problems are political/social - regret every time we were called in to try and provide a "technical" band aid to those same problems. Why? Social and political problems are really hard to solve. If you can use technology to sidestep them, that's exactly the right way to do it.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 11y ago
I think GP was suggesting that technical bandaids were being placed on compound fracture type injuries, rather than addressing the root issue. If you sidestep the problems entirely, sure, but I think that's the minority of cases where a genuinely hard social/political problem exists, a technical approach attempted, and the outcomes measured. We can all readily recall Uber as an example in the positive direction. What we are worse at is seeing or recalling the hundreds of times humans struggled with a technical solution that hacked away at the visible leaves while the root remained unaddressed.
davidgl 11y ago
That's the problem, you can't solve people problems with technology, god knows I've seen enough people try ...
amirmc 11y ago
I've been in many situations where people thought that the solution lay in something technical, whereas the actual issue was social/cultural. In the worst case, time and energy is spent on the technical thing, which then simply fails when it hits the 'market' (so to speak). In the best case, the technical solution papers over a few cracks and merely kicks the can down the road.
VLM 11y ago
OP must be very young. In corporate environments there is no sidestepping. Say there's 20 pounds of work for 10 pounds of (recently downsized) people across multiple departments. The way you'd like to see technology work is turn 20 pound of work into 10 or less pounds of work for the entire company. The way technology is actually used in the real corporate world is your boss has you automate procedures and policies such that you push work out of your department and onto even more overloaded competing departments. That's how the strongest competitors are determined for promotion and bonus. To some extent its a startup vs old company problem. Trust me, if technology could be applied to solve the whole company wide problem, grandpa would have already done it with punchcards decades ago, the only innovation that happens in old companies is pushing work and blame onto other departments. Hey, I have a number that proves we're now better, and that's all that matters. The other way it works is as a weapon / scapegoat. They don't wanna work with us and I don't want to force them, or can't make them. But I can tell my programmer to change the bounds checking on that input field and they'll be forced to cooperate or shut down. If it works and they cooperate with us, I'll take the credit, if it fails, I'll blame and fire the programmer. Or if you don't want them to work with us (as in dump work on us) the programmer can sabotage their system, and again you can guess the different pathways for reward and punishment.

a_imho 11y ago

>5. Most business problems are political/social Very insightful. Wondering why it is not discussed more often with so many snake oilers selling their silver bullets.

edraferi 11y ago
It's a lot simpler to throw money at technology than actually face policy / culture problems.
- crasco 11y ago
  This is so true. It also explains the revolving door of CIO/CTOs at many places. Every 3-5 years, a new one comes in, makes minor changes and avoids the elephant in the room. On and on we go.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    Politics at every level is nowhere close to being a solved problem. Most business training still seems to rely on parables and cool stories, larded with huge doses of Standard Business Vocabulary to make it convincing (win, compete, achieve, aspire, excel, lead, inspire, and on and on.) If people really knew what they were doing there would be a lot less noise and a lot more quiet wise action.

anysz 11y ago

I'd like to tip my hat off to this contemporary masterpiece of fine trolling. A truly exquisite feat of engineering.

smikhanov 11y ago

Granted, in a decade, if you'll still be in this profession, you'll remember J2EE and XML and Node and npm and pip and git and Golang and JavaScript and code polish and functions-vs-methods debate as tiny specks on what actually constitutes you career. The author of the linked article tries analyzing his entire life from a standpoint of being a programmer, and your comment analyzes last few years of your life staring at /r/programming. Can't believe this comment made it to the top.

dinkumthinkum 11y ago
I agree completely with you. I think the answer is you can't help some people. It's just sort of a myopic view. Could you imagine in 50 years someone asks you what regret you had about your career and you said "that I ever used node that one week in 2015"? I mean, wow.
- pekk 11y ago
  If you spent a couple years building everything you could on top of Node and then realized you completely disagreed with some of its basic design then that would be a memorable experience. This may be hard to understand if you are still in love with Javascript.
  - aplummer 11y ago
    I don't know, I see disliking my old work as a good sign of engineering growth, and hating old decisions as personal / professional work...
- saeranv 11y ago
  Or, it could be an indication that they've had a pretty good career with only trivial regrets. That's how I read it.

assocguilt 11y ago

Oh shit boy, these other comments schooled you!

dang 11y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines. If you don't want it to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com.

leshow 11y ago

> ever using node and npm so you regret writing anything modern for the web?