5 ms·

So I started reading this book, and the immediate thing that strikes me is the obvious age bias (against young people) of the author. It's full of phrases like

by ojbyrne 11y ago

So I started reading this book, and the immediate thing that strikes me is the obvious age bias (against young people) of the author. It's full of phrases like "just out of high school," (about a director:) "looked like an intern." If you're going to throw rocks, etc. And for the record, I'm 55, work in tech, and yes, ageism is a problem, but this book doesn't seem like its going to help.

danielschonfeld 11y ago
Agism exists in every sector, at every age group. Have encountered the reverse myself. Happens every time one generations steps on the other's turf.
amscanne 11y ago
Or the implication that young founders are somehow in need of "adult supervision". This idea is alive and well in Canada (a more conservative culture generally); their tech scene hasn't exactly exploded as a result. This is a pet peeve of mine, and exactly the same ageism the author is complaining about. All of these things mean that you're not getting the best people for the job, both ways.
- pmalynin 11y ago
  This has been one of the worst things in being a founded in Edmonton. Also exacerbated by us getting shafted by oil, lack of interest in tech, essentially creates an environment where any decent developer / founder tries to gtfo to Vancouver or SF as fast as possible.
  - NovaS1X 11y ago
    >essentially creates an environment where any decent developer / founder tries to gtfo to Vancouver or SF as fast as possible. And then the environment and expense of Vancouver makes most gtfo to Toronto or SF (like they wanted to in the first place).
    - serge2k 11y ago
      > like they wanted to in the first place Even now I'd rather go to Vancouver than SF or Toronto. I went to Seattle instead of Vancouver because my job offer was for Seattle.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  Adult supervision doens't necessarily mean grey hairs it means having common sense and Emotional Inteligence - look at the new MS CEO badly screwing up answering a softball q at an internal company meeting. I bet after that MS share holders though damn we should have hired Mulally.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - djhn 11y ago
    What are you referencing, out of interest? Link?
    - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
      The new Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella when he said "women shouldn’t ask for raises, but should instead have “faith that the system will give you the right raise.” Some on at his level should not make that sort of mistake evver.
      - DavidHm 11y ago
        Oh dear. I get what he was trying (I hope) to say, but that is such a horrible way to put it. For reference - Netflix said it best in that masterpiece of an HR document - a pay rise should never come up as a topic, because you should already be paying your people close to the top of what the market thinks they are worth .
  - amscanne 11y ago
    My experience in Canada was that "experience" was simply a euphemism for age. I'm not complaining about genuine experience/wisdom/etc. I just think the correlation with age is a lot weaker than prevailing wisdom in the great white north, where age is almost seen as a requirement.
- serge2k 11y ago
  > This idea is alive and well in Canada (a more conservative culture generally); their tech scene hasn't exactly exploded as a result. That is far down the list of reasons why Canada's tech scene is weak. More conservative generally?
  - amscanne 11y ago
    I feel this is one of the root problems with Canada's scene. Young founders are simply not viewed as credible without sufficient "experience" (an obvious euphemism for age). The result is that assistance offered to start-ups (via accelerators, etc.) is way too often in the form of finding "experienced" entrepreneurs to "guide" the start-ups, instead of actually enabling the young founders. The experience of a former low-level exec from Nortel, RIM, IBM or Microsoft Canada is generally not relevant to a start-up. You may disagree, but I feel I spent enough years grinding it out in Canada to justify an opinion.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
atom-morgan 11y ago
I've now seen multiple people mention the author's own age bias. At this point I wonder if he's oblivious to it or genuinely views it as a different perspective.
- ojbyrne 11y ago
  Really seems to be casting things in an "us vs. them" light, which is just bad.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  I would have liked to see if he was similarly ageist before his employment experience.
- DavidAdams 11y ago
  My guess is that the "ageist" tone of his memoir it's savvy marketing. Who's going to be most interested in a memoir of a middle aged guy witnessing the horrors of working for a rich bro tech company? Who's going to buy a book, full stop? Other middle aged people who have looked at young idiots getting rich in Silicon Valley while their career prospects dwindle, that's who. So the tone of this and other articles he's written to promote the book are of course going to play up the culture clash and take sides with the older generation. Older people with wisdom and marketing experience understand these things (I kid!).
jkot 11y ago
People can go to high school and become interns at their 50-ties.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Yeah, and a woman can have genetic modification to share some genes with canines, it's technically possible. But when someone calls someone a "bitch" it doesn't make much sense to assume they meant that. It's 99.99999% more likely that he said those things pointing out their age.
coldtea 11y ago
>It's full of phrases like "just out of high school," (about a director:) "looked like an intern." Well, there is a thing as experience and immaturity. And someone looking "just out of high school", or an executive being "like an intern" could be legitimate concerns -- if he doesn't say those things as his sole arguments, but proceeds to describe how (in his opinion) these people fared badly due to their inexperience.
- dikdik 11y ago
  How people look is a pretty poor indicator of their performance. If the people being referenced actually lack maturity, then provide statements to support that. When people don't have any actual evidence to support their claims, they use bullshit phrases designed to push emotion over facts.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Well, "just out of high school" can mean that he looked young face/dress/etc-wise. It can also mean that he looked AND acted inexperienced, immature, bro-ish, etc.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >When people don't have any actual evidence to support their claims, they use bullshit phrases designed to push emotion over facts. Often I'll use emotions over facts even when I have facts. My own experience has been that discussing with other humans goes easier when you include emotional arguments. While a mix of both works best, if you have to give a very simplified argument and cannot include both factual and emotional argument, the emotional argument will tend to go better. I fully agree with your claim that those without factual argument will use emotional argument, but the use of an emotional argument does not guarantee they are lacking a factual argument. For example, if I describe someone as an intern due to their lack of maturity, I may have numerous stories to tell about their lack of maturity, but as I only have one line to describe them in, I stick with describing them as an intern.
    - coldtea 11y ago

by ojbyrne 11y ago

danielschonfeld 11y ago

Agism exists in every sector, at every age group. Have encountered the reverse myself. Happens every time one generations steps on the other's turf.

amscanne 11y ago

Or the implication that young founders are somehow in need of "adult supervision". This idea is alive and well in Canada (a more conservative culture generally); their tech scene hasn't exactly exploded as a result. This is a pet peeve of mine, and exactly the same ageism the author is complaining about. All of these things mean that you're not getting the best people for the job, both ways.

pmalynin 11y ago
This has been one of the worst things in being a founded in Edmonton. Also exacerbated by us getting shafted by oil, lack of interest in tech, essentially creates an environment where any decent developer / founder tries to gtfo to Vancouver or SF as fast as possible.
- NovaS1X 11y ago
  >essentially creates an environment where any decent developer / founder tries to gtfo to Vancouver or SF as fast as possible. And then the environment and expense of Vancouver makes most gtfo to Toronto or SF (like they wanted to in the first place).
  - serge2k 11y ago
    > like they wanted to in the first place Even now I'd rather go to Vancouver than SF or Toronto. I went to Seattle instead of Vancouver because my job offer was for Seattle.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
Adult supervision doens't necessarily mean grey hairs it means having common sense and Emotional Inteligence - look at the new MS CEO badly screwing up answering a softball q at an internal company meeting. I bet after that MS share holders though damn we should have hired Mulally.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- djhn 11y ago
  What are you referencing, out of interest? Link?
  - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
    The new Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella when he said "women shouldn’t ask for raises, but should instead have “faith that the system will give you the right raise.” Some on at his level should not make that sort of mistake evver.
    - DavidHm 11y ago
      Oh dear. I get what he was trying (I hope) to say, but that is such a horrible way to put it. For reference - Netflix said it best in that masterpiece of an HR document - a pay rise should never come up as a topic, because you should already be paying your people close to the top of what the market thinks they are worth .
- amscanne 11y ago
  My experience in Canada was that "experience" was simply a euphemism for age. I'm not complaining about genuine experience/wisdom/etc. I just think the correlation with age is a lot weaker than prevailing wisdom in the great white north, where age is almost seen as a requirement.
serge2k 11y ago
> This idea is alive and well in Canada (a more conservative culture generally); their tech scene hasn't exactly exploded as a result. That is far down the list of reasons why Canada's tech scene is weak. More conservative generally?
- amscanne 11y ago
  I feel this is one of the root problems with Canada's scene. Young founders are simply not viewed as credible without sufficient "experience" (an obvious euphemism for age). The result is that assistance offered to start-ups (via accelerators, etc.) is way too often in the form of finding "experienced" entrepreneurs to "guide" the start-ups, instead of actually enabling the young founders. The experience of a former low-level exec from Nortel, RIM, IBM or Microsoft Canada is generally not relevant to a start-up. You may disagree, but I feel I spent enough years grinding it out in Canada to justify an opinion.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

atom-morgan 11y ago

I've now seen multiple people mention the author's own age bias. At this point I wonder if he's oblivious to it or genuinely views it as a different perspective.

ojbyrne 11y ago
Really seems to be casting things in an "us vs. them" light, which is just bad.
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
I would have liked to see if he was similarly ageist before his employment experience.
DavidAdams 11y ago
My guess is that the "ageist" tone of his memoir it's savvy marketing. Who's going to be most interested in a memoir of a middle aged guy witnessing the horrors of working for a rich bro tech company? Who's going to buy a book, full stop? Other middle aged people who have looked at young idiots getting rich in Silicon Valley while their career prospects dwindle, that's who. So the tone of this and other articles he's written to promote the book are of course going to play up the culture clash and take sides with the older generation. Older people with wisdom and marketing experience understand these things (I kid!).

jkot 11y ago

People can go to high school and become interns at their 50-ties.

coldtea 11y ago
Yeah, and a woman can have genetic modification to share some genes with canines, it's technically possible. But when someone calls someone a "bitch" it doesn't make much sense to assume they meant that. It's 99.99999% more likely that he said those things pointing out their age.

coldtea 11y ago

>It's full of phrases like "just out of high school," (about a director:) "looked like an intern." Well, there is a thing as experience and immaturity. And someone looking "just out of high school", or an executive being "like an intern" could be legitimate concerns -- if he doesn't say those things as his sole arguments, but proceeds to describe how (in his opinion) these people fared badly due to their inexperience.

dikdik 11y ago
How people look is a pretty poor indicator of their performance. If the people being referenced actually lack maturity, then provide statements to support that. When people don't have any actual evidence to support their claims, they use bullshit phrases designed to push emotion over facts.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Well, "just out of high school" can mean that he looked young face/dress/etc-wise. It can also mean that he looked AND acted inexperienced, immature, bro-ish, etc.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >When people don't have any actual evidence to support their claims, they use bullshit phrases designed to push emotion over facts. Often I'll use emotions over facts even when I have facts. My own experience has been that discussing with other humans goes easier when you include emotional arguments. While a mix of both works best, if you have to give a very simplified argument and cannot include both factual and emotional argument, the emotional argument will tend to go better. I fully agree with your claim that those without factual argument will use emotional argument, but the use of an emotional argument does not guarantee they are lacking a factual argument. For example, if I describe someone as an intern due to their lack of maturity, I may have numerous stories to tell about their lack of maturity, but as I only have one line to describe them in, I stick with describing them as an intern.
  - coldtea 11y ago