5 ms·

I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not

I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not everyone has the same environment. I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This seems like a very tangible fear that a lot of women face, and I admire how she has conditioned herself to overcome this fear and it has helped her increase her knowledge and abilities. It's awesome that you've had a better experience, but I'm positive that many women have dropped out of CS curriculum because of some of these social factors. Recognizing this and trying to improve the state of things is a great goal to have.

mynewtb 11y ago
Nothing you wrote is different for men.
- smt88 11y ago
  I think the implication is that the pressure is amplified for women in male-dominated situations and/or that the game is rigged. As a man, there's almost nothing you can do in your career where you gender works against you. Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) I've heard many men express vocal shock upon hearing that a good PR (or whole project) was written by a woman. The game is definitely still rigged to varying degrees in programming.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    >Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) // I'll have to read your citations to be sure [hint, hint; ie citations please] but presumably this is context sensitive. I've been mocked for being able to make a hot drink by a group of women ("Wow, a man who can make their own cup of tea!") and I've also been discriminated against at work ("Can we have the lady please" - I'm the one with the greater experience but it's in an area related to child care and so I'm assumed to be here to help my female colleague). Doesn't bother me, it's pretty petty after all, but it happens and it doesn't look like people assuming I'm more competent because of my sex; perhaps I'm mislead. As a father I also get remarks like "do you know where his mum is" when the baby is crying ... (and no it's not because they know the baby needs feeding).
    - smt88 11y ago
      Citations below. It's very, very easy to Google these, by the way. There are literally decades of research that, all things equal, women are perceived as less competent, less hire-able, and less intelligent than men. I agree that there is bias against men when it comes to domestic and caretaking tasks. The point that people are trying to make is that the discrimination against men is far less painful. Your examples are actually perfect. They're small issues that didn't bother you. But what if you're a single mother trying to get a promotion? That bias could affect where your kids go to school, how much you save for retirement, and other vitally important parts of your life. A really important note: we'd rarely discuss inequality in STEM fields if those weren't some of the best-paying and most sought-after jobs at the moment. Context and circumstances do matter here. There are certainly issues of discrimination against men that are important (men are less likely to seek mental health care because it's not "manly" to have feelings or be "weak"). But those things are also caused by men, aren't they? Are women the drivers of any seriously harmful discrimination against men? (I'm genuinely asking here.) The overall point I'm trying to make is that bias against women happens in ways that have a huge impact on their lives, and bias against men (while still a problem!) happens in ways that harm us far less. That's all moot, though: if we move toward gender equality, all of the discrimination should diminish. Men and women will be affected positively. Copious citations: 1a. (writeup) http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/11/male-biology-students-consistently-underestimate-female-peers-study-finds/ http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/11/male-biology-stude... 1b. (study) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148405 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... 2. http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 3a. (writeup) http://www.amazon.com/Blindspot-Hidden-Biases-Good-People/dp/0553804642 http://www.amazon.com/Blindspot-Hidden-Biases-Good-People/dp... 3b. (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9__gD88xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9__gD88xk 3c. (study) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/articles/2009_Nosek_PNAS.pdf http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 3d. (study) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/articles/2009_Shutts_DS.pdf http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 3e. (many more studies) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/Publications.html http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 4a. (writeup) http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/stu... 4b. (study) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 5. (research done by my incredibly smart friend showing that the gender wage gap is about $.10 on the dollar when controlling all possible variables) https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09/59658/what-causes-the-gender-wage-gap/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/0...
- sridca 11y ago
  What's different however is men hardly get the equivalent empathy for the said hardships.
- huherto 11y ago
  May be we just don't understand the social clues. I friend had a little sister in high school. And she was very happy learning programming. She thought about studying CS, but she changed her mind. She was never able to articulate a reason; she was not very excited about her chosen career. My guess is that her decision was influenced by social status.
- cableshaft 11y ago
  Yep. Part of the reason I dropped out of Comp Sci the first time around is because I was struggling and thought I must be in the wrong major, because if it was the right major, it should be easy for me. (Note: throughout high school, most classwork was easy for me, or if it wasn't, I wasn't too interested in the subject, so it was a shock to actually encounter subjects I had a hard time grasping in a field I was actively interested in) I did ask for help during office hours, though, and one of my professors actually said "If you didn't learn it in the lectures there's nothing more I can teach you." Back then there was very few articles online, and no Stack Overflow, not even Experts Exchange, so my only real resources were two ancient textbooks in the school library and my professor. But asking questions isn't easy, and in fact it's actively discouraged by your peers in high school, who mostly have nothing better to do with their time at school except judge and gossip about people in their classes.
Tobani 11y ago
> I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This is something i see my wife have constantly forced upon her by her mother. My wife wasn't allowed to do her own hair until senior year of High School, because she "Didn't do it right." My mother-in-law(MIL) would re-do homework that wasn't perfect. Essays that expressed opinions not 100% in-line with her opinion were re-written. My wife is smart in her own right. She's smarter than me. She has her MS in Statistics. She's really good at what she does, but she has a hard time with confidence and asserting herself. She's been told she's not doing it right her whole life. I think some of the stress and lack of enjoyment at work stems from this. She should probably push back more often than she does. To be fair she has also had a few interactions customers who were outright sexist and make me want to punch somebody in the face. Now, we let my daughter dress herself most days (She understands there times my wife picks her clothes and doesn't fight it). She may be wearing a purple, shirt, striped pants, and a polka dot skirt (honestly most of the time things don't clash THAT much). My MIL is horrified. "All of the other kids will laugh at her." No they won't, they're in preschool. All of the girls love whatever she is wearing. The boys don't even notice. We were talking her preschool teacher the other day and she told us "She'll be princesses with the girls one minute, and rough-housing playing ninja turtles with the boys the next." I couldn't be more proud. Now that's not to rant against my MIL. My mother and father are crazy too in their own ways. As is everybody my family and that makes everything fun.
- whatever_dude 11y ago
  Great story. My partner had a similar upbringing and I still see the effect it had. And I have my own quirks due to my parents' lack of supervision. We're definitely a product of our parents.
splintercell 11y ago
> I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not everyone has the same environment. < What women need to understand is that just by solving this problem of "encourage women to do X" won't do anything. Why not? Because that's not the real problem. What you miss about AlyssaRowan's post is that she is telling you that she never cared about other people's validation. What you read there is as 'her brother and father encouraged her'. Try ignoring what other people expect out of you and you will find that suddenly everybody is rallying behind you.
- tremon 11y ago
  The two are very much related. The way you learn to ignore other (random) people's validation, is by having enough validation early on from the people that really matter. If you've missed that early validation, it becomes a lot harder to build your inner validation.
  - splintercell 11y ago
    > If you've missed that early validation, it becomes a lot harder to build your inner validation. That is not true at all. It's a choice, always. Even after not caring for other people's validation or their value judgment, more 'validation' is what you need in order for you to start caring about their validation. Tell me which one would have a stronger effect upon you to live up to other people's values: a) tremon I've always seen you happy, and I hope you will keep my daughter always happy b) tremon you're a loser, you will never be successful in life. My daughter will be so unhappy with you. If you think the first statement is what will make you not care about your in law's opinions, then you're totally wrong, and it tells me that you have never 'not-cared' for other people's opinion about you. It's the second statement which makes me wanna work towards my own happiness with my future wife. The first statement pushes me to deny my own feelings because it's only in first case you could disappoint someone else.
Abraln 11y ago
As a mechanical engineer who has worked with software engineers on projects, I believe that the nature of the job can cause us to be more blunt than most. When the guys in the shop weld something poorly they don't get points for effort, they redo the work. Likewise, when one of my designs has a flaw I WANT people to point it out bluntly and immediately to save me hours of work, the company money and reputation, an possibly even lives if the equipment fails at the wrong moment. My dad is in the field as well and we both have to put effort into not being overly critical of others outside of work. I can certainly see how someone who seeks approval from others could be beaten down by this. Learning to separate your failures from your self esteem, as long as you learn from them, is a tough skill. I honestly think that "girl culture", at least what was at my high school, makes this much more difficult.
- nucleardog 11y ago
  > As a mechanical engineer who has worked with software engineers on projects, I believe that the nature of the job can cause us to be more blunt than most. To theorize as to why this is such an issue... I think it's because IT and Engineering is an area where, while still being a creative pursuit, there's still a right and wrong answer. We have jobs that are entirely based around a right and wrong answer. If I work in an office and my job is to take forms and enter them into a computer, then I've either done it correctly or incorrectly. If someone's criticizing my work, it's because I've objectively done it incorrectly. It's really tough for someone to take it personally. We have jobs that are entirely based around a creative solution. If I work in marketing my job is to come up with creative ideas. For the most part, no one will ever (or can ever) tell me my idea is "wrong", because it's entirely subjective. Someone might like a different idea better, but it's easy not to take it too personally since it's all a matter of taste. But in engineering and IT we have an intersection of the two. We're tasked with coming up with solutions to problems which is a fundamentally creative endeavour, but at the same time at the end of it all there's no couching in friendly terms or subjective evaluations... either the solution meets the criteria or it doesn't. You've got people putting themselves out there with their creativity and effort, but being judged by a harsh and unforgiving system. Some people thrive on that decidedness and the opportunity to make use of their creativity in a place where fickle humans don't get a say. Other people get their self esteem wrapped up in their work, and a blunt "this is wrong", which can and should be acceptable, destroys them. To me trying to make these fields friendly to these sorts of people (regardless of gender) makes about as much sense as telling gallery owners they can't tell painters they don't like their work because it discourages people from painting. Your work either works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then no amount of feelings are going to override the reality of the situation.
mason240 11y ago
>I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This not a gender issue, it applies to everyone in every real world setting.
audleman 11y ago
> I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. I think this is true of both genders and I believe her story illustrates that. She describes her experience in the lab where the TA was getting frustrated, that is until she proclaimed "I DON'T UNDERSTAND," and suddenly everyone was at ease. I think this shows how everyone, be it student or TA, is silently judging themselves for not knowing.

mynewtb 11y ago

Nothing you wrote is different for men.

smt88 11y ago
I think the implication is that the pressure is amplified for women in male-dominated situations and/or that the game is rigged. As a man, there's almost nothing you can do in your career where you gender works against you. Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) I've heard many men express vocal shock upon hearing that a good PR (or whole project) was written by a woman. The game is definitely still rigged to varying degrees in programming.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >Society's bias is that men are more competent, and it's been demonstrated in experiments many times (even among women!) // I'll have to read your citations to be sure [hint, hint; ie citations please] but presumably this is context sensitive. I've been mocked for being able to make a hot drink by a group of women ("Wow, a man who can make their own cup of tea!") and I've also been discriminated against at work ("Can we have the lady please" - I'm the one with the greater experience but it's in an area related to child care and so I'm assumed to be here to help my female colleague). Doesn't bother me, it's pretty petty after all, but it happens and it doesn't look like people assuming I'm more competent because of my sex; perhaps I'm mislead. As a father I also get remarks like "do you know where his mum is" when the baby is crying ... (and no it's not because they know the baby needs feeding).
  - smt88 11y ago
    Citations below. It's very, very easy to Google these, by the way. There are literally decades of research that, all things equal, women are perceived as less competent, less hire-able, and less intelligent than men. I agree that there is bias against men when it comes to domestic and caretaking tasks. The point that people are trying to make is that the discrimination against men is far less painful. Your examples are actually perfect. They're small issues that didn't bother you. But what if you're a single mother trying to get a promotion? That bias could affect where your kids go to school, how much you save for retirement, and other vitally important parts of your life. A really important note: we'd rarely discuss inequality in STEM fields if those weren't some of the best-paying and most sought-after jobs at the moment. Context and circumstances do matter here. There are certainly issues of discrimination against men that are important (men are less likely to seek mental health care because it's not "manly" to have feelings or be "weak"). But those things are also caused by men, aren't they? Are women the drivers of any seriously harmful discrimination against men? (I'm genuinely asking here.) The overall point I'm trying to make is that bias against women happens in ways that have a huge impact on their lives, and bias against men (while still a problem!) happens in ways that harm us far less. That's all moot, though: if we move toward gender equality, all of the discrimination should diminish. Men and women will be affected positively. Copious citations: 1a. (writeup) http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/11/male-biology-students-consistently-underestimate-female-peers-study-finds/ http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/11/male-biology-stude... 1b. (study) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148405 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... 2. http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 3a. (writeup) http://www.amazon.com/Blindspot-Hidden-Biases-Good-People/dp/0553804642 http://www.amazon.com/Blindspot-Hidden-Biases-Good-People/dp... 3b. (video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9__gD88xk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL9__gD88xk 3c. (study) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/articles/2009_Nosek_PNAS.pdf http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 3d. (study) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/articles/2009_Shutts_DS.pdf http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 3e. (many more studies) http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/Publications.html http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publicati... 4a. (writeup) http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/stu... 4b. (study) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 5. (research done by my incredibly smart friend showing that the gender wage gap is about $.10 on the dollar when controlling all possible variables) https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/09/59658/what-causes-the-gender-wage-gap/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2013/04/0...
sridca 11y ago
What's different however is men hardly get the equivalent empathy for the said hardships.
huherto 11y ago
May be we just don't understand the social clues. I friend had a little sister in high school. And she was very happy learning programming. She thought about studying CS, but she changed her mind. She was never able to articulate a reason; she was not very excited about her chosen career. My guess is that her decision was influenced by social status.
cableshaft 11y ago
Yep. Part of the reason I dropped out of Comp Sci the first time around is because I was struggling and thought I must be in the wrong major, because if it was the right major, it should be easy for me. (Note: throughout high school, most classwork was easy for me, or if it wasn't, I wasn't too interested in the subject, so it was a shock to actually encounter subjects I had a hard time grasping in a field I was actively interested in) I did ask for help during office hours, though, and one of my professors actually said "If you didn't learn it in the lectures there's nothing more I can teach you." Back then there was very few articles online, and no Stack Overflow, not even Experts Exchange, so my only real resources were two ancient textbooks in the school library and my professor. But asking questions isn't easy, and in fact it's actively discouraged by your peers in high school, who mostly have nothing better to do with their time at school except judge and gossip about people in their classes.

Tobani 11y ago

> I think the sentiment the author is sharing is that a lot of women feel social pressures to appear outwardly successful, popular, etc, and this creates a very difficult situation where its perceived that asking a question that might make you sound stupid causes you to lose social status. This is something i see my wife have constantly forced upon her by her mother. My wife wasn't allowed to do her own hair until senior year of High School, because she "Didn't do it right." My mother-in-law(MIL) would re-do homework that wasn't perfect. Essays that expressed opinions not 100% in-line with her opinion were re-written. My wife is smart in her own right. She's smarter than me. She has her MS in Statistics. She's really good at what she does, but she has a hard time with confidence and asserting herself. She's been told she's not doing it right her whole life. I think some of the stress and lack of enjoyment at work stems from this. She should probably push back more often than she does. To be fair she has also had a few interactions customers who were outright sexist and make me want to punch somebody in the face. Now, we let my daughter dress herself most days (She understands there times my wife picks her clothes and doesn't fight it). She may be wearing a purple, shirt, striped pants, and a polka dot skirt (honestly most of the time things don't clash THAT much). My MIL is horrified. "All of the other kids will laugh at her." No they won't, they're in preschool. All of the girls love whatever she is wearing. The boys don't even notice. We were talking her preschool teacher the other day and she told us "She'll be princesses with the girls one minute, and rough-housing playing ninja turtles with the boys the next." I couldn't be more proud. Now that's not to rant against my MIL. My mother and father are crazy too in their own ways. As is everybody my family and that makes everything fun.

whatever_dude 11y ago
Great story. My partner had a similar upbringing and I still see the effect it had. And I have my own quirks due to my parents' lack of supervision. We're definitely a product of our parents.

splintercell 11y ago

> I can appreciate that you had a great environment with an older brother and father that encouraged you to participate in technical activities with them, but not everyone has the same environment. < What women need to understand is that just by solving this problem of "encourage women to do X" won't do anything. Why not? Because that's not the real problem. What you miss about AlyssaRowan's post is that she is telling you that she never cared about other people's validation. What you read there is as 'her brother and father encouraged her'. Try ignoring what other people expect out of you and you will find that suddenly everybody is rallying behind you.

tremon 11y ago
The two are very much related. The way you learn to ignore other (random) people's validation, is by having enough validation early on from the people that really matter. If you've missed that early validation, it becomes a lot harder to build your inner validation.
- splintercell 11y ago
  > If you've missed that early validation, it becomes a lot harder to build your inner validation. That is not true at all. It's a choice, always. Even after not caring for other people's validation or their value judgment, more 'validation' is what you need in order for you to start caring about their validation. Tell me which one would have a stronger effect upon you to live up to other people's values: a) tremon I've always seen you happy, and I hope you will keep my daughter always happy b) tremon you're a loser, you will never be successful in life. My daughter will be so unhappy with you. If you think the first statement is what will make you not care about your in law's opinions, then you're totally wrong, and it tells me that you have never 'not-cared' for other people's opinion about you. It's the second statement which makes me wanna work towards my own happiness with my future wife. The first statement pushes me to deny my own feelings because it's only in first case you could disappoint someone else.

Abraln 11y ago

As a mechanical engineer who has worked with software engineers on projects, I believe that the nature of the job can cause us to be more blunt than most. When the guys in the shop weld something poorly they don't get points for effort, they redo the work. Likewise, when one of my designs has a flaw I WANT people to point it out bluntly and immediately to save me hours of work, the company money and reputation, an possibly even lives if the equipment fails at the wrong moment. My dad is in the field as well and we both have to put effort into not being overly critical of others outside of work. I can certainly see how someone who seeks approval from others could be beaten down by this. Learning to separate your failures from your self esteem, as long as you learn from them, is a tough skill. I honestly think that "girl culture", at least what was at my high school, makes this much more difficult.

nucleardog 11y ago
> As a mechanical engineer who has worked with software engineers on projects, I believe that the nature of the job can cause us to be more blunt than most. To theorize as to why this is such an issue... I think it's because IT and Engineering is an area where, while still being a creative pursuit, there's still a right and wrong answer. We have jobs that are entirely based around a right and wrong answer. If I work in an office and my job is to take forms and enter them into a computer, then I've either done it correctly or incorrectly. If someone's criticizing my work, it's because I've objectively done it incorrectly. It's really tough for someone to take it personally. We have jobs that are entirely based around a creative solution. If I work in marketing my job is to come up with creative ideas. For the most part, no one will ever (or can ever) tell me my idea is "wrong", because it's entirely subjective. Someone might like a different idea better, but it's easy not to take it too personally since it's all a matter of taste. But in engineering and IT we have an intersection of the two. We're tasked with coming up with solutions to problems which is a fundamentally creative endeavour, but at the same time at the end of it all there's no couching in friendly terms or subjective evaluations... either the solution meets the criteria or it doesn't. You've got people putting themselves out there with their creativity and effort, but being judged by a harsh and unforgiving system. Some people thrive on that decidedness and the opportunity to make use of their creativity in a place where fickle humans don't get a say. Other people get their self esteem wrapped up in their work, and a blunt "this is wrong", which can and should be acceptable, destroys them. To me trying to make these fields friendly to these sorts of people (regardless of gender) makes about as much sense as telling gallery owners they can't tell painters they don't like their work because it discourages people from painting. Your work either works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then no amount of feelings are going to override the reality of the situation.

mason240 11y ago

audleman 11y ago