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Dislike this kind of story appearing in HN. We're all well educated people with high earning potential who should be capable of buying movies, not using our tal
by cbeach 11y ago
Dislike this kind of story appearing in HN. We're all well educated people with high earning potential who should be capable of buying movies, not using our talent to rip them off.
I'd hate to see HN develop a bad reputation because of stuff like this.
- staticelf 11y agoI live in Sweden if you're supposed to wait you'll have to wait several months sometimes extra to purchase content made in the US. Also, historically there is no good way to purchase the content if you do not want to purchase a physical disc in a shop. Sometimes it's never available, especially english shows that is only broadcasted on english tv channels.
- belorn 11y agoIf we are talking about the situation in Sweden, it must also be said that there is a copyright tax on storage media in computers, phones and similar devices. The tax is supposed to be there so authors get paid when people do private copying, but DRM creates a situation where the tax money get stolen and nothing is returned to the tax payer. When copyright is used as an excuse to steal tax money, its hard to use morality as an argument against non-commercial copyright infringement.
- staticelf 11y agoYes, that is truly disgusting. This is the organisation he/she is talking about: http://www.copyswede.se/in-english/ http://www.copyswede.se/in-english/
- icebraining 11y agoStandard arguments against your position: - Using without paying is immoral, you should just do without. - Even if it's OK for you to do so, we know that many people will illegally download films they could buy, hence offering these tools is unethical. - As programmers, we rely on copyright for our income, hence it's unethical to infringe on the copyright of others. Did I miss any? The feelings of deja vu in these threads are way too strong.
- staticelf 11y ago1. No one is caring about morality in the end. I believe many people do not believe illegal copying to be immoral. 2. Yes, are there any data on that these people would ever pay? 3. Yes and like all digital content we have the ability to spread our work across the globe very fast at little to no extra cost. If we limit our work to a certain country we only have ourselves to blame when people are illegally copying it.
- icebraining 11y agoSorry, I wasn't clear: I'm a pirate as well. I was just commenting on how these threads always seem to go through the same motions, and nothing is accomplished, because everyone has already heard the arguments against their position and has found them unconvincing.
- staticelf 11y agoWell yeah, but that could be said for every political discussion, yet I see a value in keeping the discussion alive.
- mbrock 11y agoThere's an interesting part in Alasdair MacIntyre's book "After Virtue" on the "interminable nature of contemporary moral discussions."
- icebraining 11y agoDon't get me wrong, I think there's plenty to discuss on this topic, it's just that HN is not a good avenue for it. First, threads always start as a blank slate, so by the time we get through the obvious arguments on both sides, it has already dropped off the front page and the discussion has died down. The next time, someone will again invariably argue that they can't watch stuff in their country, and someone will reply with one of the arguments I listed. Secondly, since many people consider this topic poses important moral questions, downvotes will invariably be used to suppress valid but disagreeable opinions, and then we'll have more posts of people justly complaining that they've been unfairly downvoted, plus a few assholes playing victim. HN is great for most discussions around technical and business matters, particularly regarding new developments; it's pretty shitty for serious discussion around social and political topics.
- icebraining 11y agoI disagree (particularly about your assumption that "we're all well educated people with high earning potential"), but I'm sorry you're being downvoted.
- zeemonkee3 11y ago> We're all well educated people with high earning potential I agree we shouldn't be encouraging piracy, but that statement is a huge generalization.
- zdkl 11y agoI dislike this kind of moral point when the alternative only offers the appearance of morality.
- Fargren 11y agoDistribution of media is not as clearcut and issue as you make it seem. Just a couple complicating factors: there are lots of places where popular media is impossible to access legally due to licensing, and DRM often prevents media shifting, which many believe should be a right if you bought a piece of media. Also, we are not all "well educated people with high earning potential". Maybe a large majority of us are, but I've seen very interesting posts on HN from people from all walks of life.
- bcook 11y agoIf media is popular, everyone is entitled to it? Piracy will be rampant even if everyone is able to legally download all media. PS - I am one of those who are not "well educated with high earning potential". Even as a "poor" person, I am unable to morally justify my selfish actions (piracy)...
- icebraining 11y agoEven as a "poor" person, I am unable to morally justify my selfish actions (piracy)... That's fine, we have enough seeders.
- bcook 11y agoAre you saying, if something is popular enough it no longer needs moral justification?
- icebraining 11y agoNah, I was just making an easy joke.
- bcook 11y agolol, touché. I think I lost my sense of humor recently. :( :)
- zdkl 11y ago
- ACow_Adonis 11y agoEven if we are (and we're not), what makes you think we wouldn't/shouldn't want to use our money to try to get rid of intellectual property or fight intellectual property laws instead?
- cbeach 11y ago"Getting rid" of intellectual property has the unfortunate side effect of getting rid of the funding for content providers.
- chris_wot 11y agoYou assume a lot! I've never been to university, and I don't earn a lot of money (actually, none right now as I'm between jobs and haven't looked very hard as I had a major operation).
- elcapitan 11y ago> We're all well educated people with high earning potential who should be capable of buying movies That's exactly what I would tell Apple when movies that I want to watch are not available in the German iTunes or just as a dubbed version.
- cbeach 11y agoSeems my generalisation was wrong. A shame.
- truebosko 11y agoThe only viable way for me to purchase a large majority of shows my wife and I enjoy watching are to maintain a cable subscription, loaded with channels that I don't care about. I can't justify paying nearly $100 CAD / month. (We pay for Netflix, Spotify, and have used Google Play to buy episodes of certain shows)
- bcook 11y agoYou justify piracy because the legal method (having a cable subscription) is inconvenient?
- ultramancool 11y agoSome people think about this way too morally - For most of us, morality never enters the equation, I just want to watch something, there's no "justification" it's just "how do I get the content?" in an absolutely utilitarian sense.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoI guess in the same way folks are uncivil online. The virtual world doesn't seem to have the same emotional force as the real world. So folks lie, cheat and steal without hesitation.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- bcook 11y agoJust because someone is unaware of morality does not mean morality ceases to exist...
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- soylentcola 11y ago
- kbart 11y agoSouth Park, as always, was spot on with this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0wXeN6_FY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0wXeN6_FY
- bcook 11y agoI agree. I would expect the affluent to have a much more intelligent argument than "well... everyone else pirates (with differing levels of justification) and life goes on". Piracy is an alternative... not a solution.
- deepnet 11y agoIt is not either or. Yes, Paul Graham has advised not doing music start ups because of the stupidity of the entrenched monopolies. But making money by forward thinking social change and distruption is at the heart of hnews. Everyone goes to the movies. All fans spend money on art. It is well documented that those who spend the most on music also listen to a lot more than strict copyright & DRM allows. Arguably the problem is not enjoying culture but poorly thought out legislation written by lobbies for monopolies. Radio play and Libraries both faced the same problem and monopoly lobbying but stronger government then legislated enforced licenses and re-distribution agencies. To the direct benefit of those monopolies and society. In fact every new technology is lobbied against. Portrayed as destroying the Music/ Movie industry, yet turns out to be a huge new market when they are dragged kicking and screaming into the present. The sheet music industry lobbied against records. The record industry lobbied against radio. The film industry lobbied against the VHS market. TV lobbied against cable. Against mp3, against online itself, &c. Every single time they were wrong about the future of their own industry. Monopolies are bad for their own markets & society. These laws are protectionism, the first thing Adam Smith objects to in 'The Wealth of Nations'. Not everyone who reads hnews is wealthy, many are self-educated precisely because they could hustle access to information. These monopolies screw over artists more than anyone.
- rmc 11y agoI'd pay if they Try being in not-the-USA and paying for content. Add "Linux" in there and you can forget about it.
- cbeach 11y agoSo you're saying its up to content makers to support every niche OS, otherwise niche OS users are entitled to steal their work?
- zdkl 11y agoI don't know what parent is saying, but my choice of software shouldn't be the concern of content distributors. It's their job to make content available after all. If they don't want my business, I'll take it elsewhere
- cbeach 11y agoThat's exactly how capitalism should work. But for a moment there it sounded as if you were contemplating piracy, rather than taking your business elsewhere.
- zdkl 11y agoOh make no mistake I am contemplating piracy if only because it's unfair/immoral/irrational (pick your favourite) that the people securing themselves such huge income are the keyholders to almost all legal distribution of media. We need a Richard Stallman for media. (edit: added 'legal')
- soylentcola 11y agoSure, but then again, I use streaming torrents (via VPN) frequently and it's not to avoid paying for stuff. For various reasons we have a cable TV subscription in our house. Mostly it's because others in the house want cable TV but either way, it's like a $30 addon with internet service so it's relatively cheap and we pay for it. The down side is that even though I pay for cable TV, I have to use their shitty tuner/DVR and they've all but blocked the use of alternatives. So what I do is run Popcorn Time while connected through a VPN, bookmark all of my favorite shows, and when I want to watch TV, I just go to my favorites and click the latest episode that aired the previous night. It's seamless, I don't need to worry about their DVR failing to record for some reason I can't troubleshoot (unless you count driving to the cable company during work hours to swap the DVR for another equally shitty DVR), and the interface is much nicer. And while I'm aware that it's still in violation of copyright law, I don't feel I'm doing anything immoral because I pay for cable TV and could watch the same shows if I happened to be around or awake when they aired. The really screwy thing here is that I'd gladly pay even more for cable TV if they offered a legit version of this. Nice Netflix-like interface where I can browse titles or go to my favorites and see which episode I left off on. Click any one of them and within a minute it starts streaming in decent 1080p quality and there's no unresponsive 1990's interface to wrestle with. They could even set it up so you need to log in with your cable service account and all viewers would be "seeds" on the cable company's swarm. Instead I pay $30/yr for a VPN service that provides enough anonymity to avoid lawsuits and threats (even if I wouldn't necessarily count on it for anything truly sensitive) and go the "back channel" route. While I accept that I'm not owed a better experience and it may come off as entitled, in my case, it's not so much about wanting everything for free as it is about wanting something better and using the available tools to get it.
- chrisra 11y agoUpvoted to combat the lack of caring about honesty. Even if you don't have the money, stealing isn't justified.
- digler999 11y agoThats because all the "DO NOT PIRATE" messages are reserved for the paying customers.