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There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to ma

There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to make it almost impossible for foreign companies. But then India is able to export its IT professionals and outsourcing across the whole world. Is this really a level playing field? Why is no one calling this out as foul play? India seems to want one rule for when it is abroad and another when it's at home.

clevernickname 11y ago
Donald Trump's trade policy in a nutshell.
brainless 11y ago
I understand what you are saying, but I think it is not true. Being an Indian and having lived there for 30+ years, I can hardly list any major international brand in any industry which isn't selling something there. Also all the big international brands are also big Indian brands, most people do not even care that they are not Indian owned brands. So yes, huge amounts of foreign brands sell in India, but perhaps with local manufacturing or assembly. It is not a closed country at all. edit/bid/big
- planetjones 11y ago
  "We shall not entertain foreign direct investment in multibrand retail. There is no ambiguity or confusion on this. The same applies to e-commerce," the minister said in a news conference. http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investment-in-supermarkets-online-retail-1410182468 http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investm...
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    This has not to due with manufacturing, but around government protecting the small shops against Walmart. What you may not know is that Walmart is operating in India but as a partner with the Tata group. The same applies to insurance, lending and banking business. So the brands we have are Tata-Starbucs, Bharti-Axa, Birla-Sunlife, etc.
simula67 11y ago
Foreign policy is not decided based on consistency. Every democratic government has a responsibility to defend it's own citizen's interests. USA does this also, it wants free trade when it wants to export goods and services to other nations but opposes it when it comes to importing labor ( H1B VISA cap etc ). This is not evil, it is this competition between nations that improves standard of living for people everywhere.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  Labor is not trade.
  - simula67 11y ago
    Mind elaborating ? If you should be for free trade, should you also not be fro free exchange of labor ?
    - mattmanser 11y ago
      Really? It's pretty obvious. If you're working in another country, you're not spending money on tax, rent, food, utilities, etc. in your home country, you're spending them in the host country. Most of your income is spent in the host country. For your own example, most H1Bs want to live and spend their money in the US, not send money back home. So it's actually a terrible 'trade' for the originating country, they lose skilled workers to the US, workers they paid to train and educate, for nothing in return. What's the 'trade' you talk of? Labor is not trade because what does the home country get out of it? Free trade is a completely different kettle of fish to free labor markets.
      - mc808 11y ago
        Everything you say also applies to foreign trade of goods or capital with just a little tweaking. Would you consider it "trade" when capital flows out the country, builds facilities in a foreign country, employs people in the foreign country, sells goods to people in the foreign country, and then stores most of the profit in the foreign country?
tim333 11y ago
This sort of policy mostly harms India itself and doesn't affect the west that much so there's not much point us calling it out. It's stuff like this that keeps India at around 130 on the Human Development Index, a little above the Republic of Congo in spite of having people bright enough to come and run Microsoft. Go protectionism and bureaucracy!
- shripadk 11y ago
  Are you serious? How is Human Development Index have anything to do with owning Apple devices? Even if Apple is allowed to sell it's refurbished devices it cannot compete with other phone manufacturers who sell devices with better specs at lowest possible rates. And I'm saying this as an Apple fanboy. That is the reality of Indian market. Human Development Index is mostly because of poverty which cannot be eradicated by Apple selling it's refurbished phones in the secondary market.
  - tim333 11y ago
    Not specifically the Apple deal but the general attitude: >“Why even consider allowing import of used phones when import of other used goods such as cars are precluded by 300 percent duty levies?” is what creates much of the poverty. Why not just let people buy and sell phones and cars and set up businesses without the government blocking it?
    - shripadk 11y ago
      People are already doing it. India has a thriving secondary market if you are not aware. Many can't afford to buy new phones so they buy second hand phones from these markets. But this buying and selling of used devices happens within the Indian market i.e. the seller of the old phone is an Indian and so is the buyer. The problem is that this is the first time a foreign company has requested the Government to grant license to sell second hand phones in the secondary market. What this essentially means is that Apple would dump second hand phones it receives from it's recycling policy World over into Indian secondary market. If the Government allows this then it sets a dangerous precedent with all other electronic manufacturers wanting a license to sell e-waste in India's secondary market. This is already happening with e-waste being smuggled into India illegally creating environmental hazards. Read this article published in 2007: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-china-idUSKCN0V4200 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-china-idUSKCN0V4200. Imagine the amount of e-waste already imported illegally into India since 2007. This has nothing to do with poverty or human development index. US environmental laws are strict enough to not allow e-waste from accumulating in US soil. So Apple is using it's "Recycling policy" to dump e-waste in India which doesn't yet have strict environmental laws. If Apple extends it's "Recycling policy" to second hand phones there would be no barrier to entry into India's secondary market. It's up to Apple to clarify it's policy.
shripadk 11y ago
Being an Indian I can also get work outsourced to a developer in a foreign country without having to pay any duty. There are many companies in India that also employ foreign nationals. How can you compare import/export of physical goods with import/export of services/labor? Both are different. EDIT: Also you are assuming Apple does not have retail stores in India. In fact there are multiple Apple stores in every city in India. There are many who own Apple products but there are many more who purchase Sony/Samsung/Micromax/Karbonn etc as they tend to be less expensive. None of the other companies use India as a dumping ground for second hand phones. Why should Apple be any different?
- geon 11y ago
  > dumping ground for second hand phones Why the negative phrasing? What is wrong with reuse? Would it be any difference if the phones were new? Is it an environmental issue?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Personally, I don't think this is going to happen with these Apple phones. (Although I'd be interested to see what happens with security updates; and how easy they are to use with local languages.) But. There have been considerable environmental problems with companies dumping e-waste on developing world countries. Sometimes this e-waste is described as "used, low cost computing equipment", sometimes it's described as "recyclable waste". Either of those sound fine. When I hear them I think of a small local co-op fixing the computers and installing free software and distributing them to schools or whatnot. Or of people dismantling and sorting the stuff, and recycling for cash. What actually happens is something like the e-waste dump in Agbogbloshie, Accra, Ghana. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sch78 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sch78 http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/to...
  - shripadk 11y ago
    If Apple can come with a solution for recycling these second hand phones I'm all ears. So far there is no word on that issue. We already have a lot of e-waste in the country as it is. Adding more to it will cause serious environmental hazards.
statictype 11y ago
In other words, India is trying to look after its own interests instead of being 'fair'. Is there any country that doesn't do that? Note: I'm not commenting on whether or not this practice will actually work for India in the long run
anexprogrammer 11y ago
I take your point, but India is not exactly unique here. To name but two, China has similar one-sided regulations and Switzerland has companies that can aggressively mount hostile takeovers of foreign competition, whilst being effectively protected from same (Nestles being the obvious example). Contradictory attitudes seem quite common!
794CD01 11y ago
They want one rule for when it's at home. What rules exist abroad are up to the government of that country, not India.

clevernickname 11y ago

Donald Trump's trade policy in a nutshell.

brainless 11y ago

I understand what you are saying, but I think it is not true. Being an Indian and having lived there for 30+ years, I can hardly list any major international brand in any industry which isn't selling something there. Also all the big international brands are also big Indian brands, most people do not even care that they are not Indian owned brands. So yes, huge amounts of foreign brands sell in India, but perhaps with local manufacturing or assembly. It is not a closed country at all. edit/bid/big

planetjones 11y ago
"We shall not entertain foreign direct investment in multibrand retail. There is no ambiguity or confusion on this. The same applies to e-commerce," the minister said in a news conference. http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investment-in-supermarkets-online-retail-1410182468 http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investm...
- sandGorgon 11y ago
  This has not to due with manufacturing, but around government protecting the small shops against Walmart. What you may not know is that Walmart is operating in India but as a partner with the Tata group. The same applies to insurance, lending and banking business. So the brands we have are Tata-Starbucs, Bharti-Axa, Birla-Sunlife, etc.

simula67 11y ago

Foreign policy is not decided based on consistency. Every democratic government has a responsibility to defend it's own citizen's interests. USA does this also, it wants free trade when it wants to export goods and services to other nations but opposes it when it comes to importing labor ( H1B VISA cap etc ). This is not evil, it is this competition between nations that improves standard of living for people everywhere.

mattmanser 11y ago
Labor is not trade.
- simula67 11y ago
  Mind elaborating ? If you should be for free trade, should you also not be fro free exchange of labor ?
  - mattmanser 11y ago
    Really? It's pretty obvious. If you're working in another country, you're not spending money on tax, rent, food, utilities, etc. in your home country, you're spending them in the host country. Most of your income is spent in the host country. For your own example, most H1Bs want to live and spend their money in the US, not send money back home. So it's actually a terrible 'trade' for the originating country, they lose skilled workers to the US, workers they paid to train and educate, for nothing in return. What's the 'trade' you talk of? Labor is not trade because what does the home country get out of it? Free trade is a completely different kettle of fish to free labor markets.
    - mc808 11y ago
      Everything you say also applies to foreign trade of goods or capital with just a little tweaking. Would you consider it "trade" when capital flows out the country, builds facilities in a foreign country, employs people in the foreign country, sells goods to people in the foreign country, and then stores most of the profit in the foreign country?

tim333 11y ago

This sort of policy mostly harms India itself and doesn't affect the west that much so there's not much point us calling it out. It's stuff like this that keeps India at around 130 on the Human Development Index, a little above the Republic of Congo in spite of having people bright enough to come and run Microsoft. Go protectionism and bureaucracy!

shripadk 11y ago
Are you serious? How is Human Development Index have anything to do with owning Apple devices? Even if Apple is allowed to sell it's refurbished devices it cannot compete with other phone manufacturers who sell devices with better specs at lowest possible rates. And I'm saying this as an Apple fanboy. That is the reality of Indian market. Human Development Index is mostly because of poverty which cannot be eradicated by Apple selling it's refurbished phones in the secondary market.
- tim333 11y ago
  Not specifically the Apple deal but the general attitude: >“Why even consider allowing import of used phones when import of other used goods such as cars are precluded by 300 percent duty levies?” is what creates much of the poverty. Why not just let people buy and sell phones and cars and set up businesses without the government blocking it?
  - shripadk 11y ago
    People are already doing it. India has a thriving secondary market if you are not aware. Many can't afford to buy new phones so they buy second hand phones from these markets. But this buying and selling of used devices happens within the Indian market i.e. the seller of the old phone is an Indian and so is the buyer. The problem is that this is the first time a foreign company has requested the Government to grant license to sell second hand phones in the secondary market. What this essentially means is that Apple would dump second hand phones it receives from it's recycling policy World over into Indian secondary market. If the Government allows this then it sets a dangerous precedent with all other electronic manufacturers wanting a license to sell e-waste in India's secondary market. This is already happening with e-waste being smuggled into India illegally creating environmental hazards. Read this article published in 2007: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-china-idUSKCN0V4200 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-china-idUSKCN0V4200. Imagine the amount of e-waste already imported illegally into India since 2007. This has nothing to do with poverty or human development index. US environmental laws are strict enough to not allow e-waste from accumulating in US soil. So Apple is using it's "Recycling policy" to dump e-waste in India which doesn't yet have strict environmental laws. If Apple extends it's "Recycling policy" to second hand phones there would be no barrier to entry into India's secondary market. It's up to Apple to clarify it's policy.

shripadk 11y ago

Being an Indian I can also get work outsourced to a developer in a foreign country without having to pay any duty. There are many companies in India that also employ foreign nationals. How can you compare import/export of physical goods with import/export of services/labor? Both are different. EDIT: Also you are assuming Apple does not have retail stores in India. In fact there are multiple Apple stores in every city in India. There are many who own Apple products but there are many more who purchase Sony/Samsung/Micromax/Karbonn etc as they tend to be less expensive. None of the other companies use India as a dumping ground for second hand phones. Why should Apple be any different?

geon 11y ago
> dumping ground for second hand phones Why the negative phrasing? What is wrong with reuse? Would it be any difference if the phones were new? Is it an environmental issue?
- DanBC 11y ago
  Personally, I don't think this is going to happen with these Apple phones. (Although I'd be interested to see what happens with security updates; and how easy they are to use with local languages.) But. There have been considerable environmental problems with companies dumping e-waste on developing world countries. Sometimes this e-waste is described as "used, low cost computing equipment", sometimes it's described as "recyclable waste". Either of those sound fine. When I hear them I think of a small local co-op fixing the computers and installing free software and distributing them to schools or whatnot. Or of people dismantling and sorting the stuff, and recycling for cash. What actually happens is something like the e-waste dump in Agbogbloshie, Accra, Ghana. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sch78 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sch78 http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/to...
- shripadk 11y ago
  If Apple can come with a solution for recycling these second hand phones I'm all ears. So far there is no word on that issue. We already have a lot of e-waste in the country as it is. Adding more to it will cause serious environmental hazards.

statictype 11y ago

In other words, India is trying to look after its own interests instead of being 'fair'. Is there any country that doesn't do that? Note: I'm not commenting on whether or not this practice will actually work for India in the long run

anexprogrammer 11y ago

I take your point, but India is not exactly unique here. To name but two, China has similar one-sided regulations and Switzerland has companies that can aggressively mount hostile takeovers of foreign competition, whilst being effectively protected from same (Nestles being the obvious example). Contradictory attitudes seem quite common!

794CD01 11y ago

They want one rule for when it's at home. What rules exist abroad are up to the government of that country, not India.