11 ms·

Apple's Push to Flood India with Used iPhones Ignites Backlash

71 points by mastazi 11y ago

Razengan 11y ago
> The group’s members [who opposed Apple's application] include the largest Indian phone brands: Micromax, Intex and Samsung. Ah.
- vacri 11y ago
  Meh. Apple is asking to be treated like a special snowflake in this case, caught by their own elitism of not-selling-affordable-phones.
  - Razengan 11y ago
    That may be so, but the "Mobile and Communications Council" (I assume it's a regulatory group) seems to include their direct competition. How sure can anyone be that there's going to be absolutely no conflict of interest?
    - vacri 11y ago
      Just because it has 'council' in the name doesn't mean it can make laws. And even then, why should Apple get a special exemption from a general law?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >caught by their own elitism of not-selling-affordable-phones. Yeah, and look where that got them. From near bankruptcy in 1997 to being only the most valuable (or in top 3 depending on when you look/how you measure) of companies on the planet.
    - vacri 11y ago
      So... why does that mean that they should get special exemption from a general law? Apple can't sell in India because they are too elitist to make a model priced for the developing world (which they can absolutely choose to do with their buckets of money), so why should they be allowed a special channel into a market that they want to treat as second-class?
      - coldtea 11y ago
        You do know that Apple sells second hand (refurbished) phones (and macs) in the US and West too, and they have been doing that since forever, right?
        vacri 11y ago
        They want to increase their market share in India, but they're not willing to produce a cheaper phone for that, so they're asking for special treatment. Why should Apple get special treatment that others don't get in India? What is so magical about Apple that they should get this preferential treatment? It's funny, HN seems to be against corporate sweetheart deals, and loves stories about exposing corruption. But not against Apple! No, we'll not hear a word against those guys - they're special! Hell, when the recent Apple v FBI story broke, people here were talking about this 'the most valuable company on the planet' like it was the scrappy underdog, rather than the behemoth of industry it is. So... why does that mean that they should get special exemption from a general law?
        coldtea 11y ago
        >Why should Apple get special treatment that others don't get in India? What is so magical about Apple that they should get this preferential treatment? If the law changes to allow it, then it won't be "special treatment". What's so special about a random law that much be preserved for eternity? >It's funny, HN seems to be against corporate sweetheart deals, and loves stories about exposing corruption. Wanting / Asking to sell second-hand phones is corruption how?
        11y ago
    - ocean3 11y ago
      But that strategy did not work for them in India. Hence they are trying to sell cheaper refurbished models.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Well, they have been doing very well in India too: http://www.ibtimes.com/once-tough-market-apple-inc-indians-show-growing-taste-iphones-1796326 http://www.ibtimes.com/once-tough-market-apple-inc-indians-s... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/slideshow/appleindiasuccess/7-reasons-for-Apples-success-in-India/itslideshowviewall/19647039.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/slideshow/appleindia... In addition, they're trying to sell cheaper phones there.
        ocean3 11y ago
        I don't think they have even 5% market share. (http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/24/9790810/apple-iphone-india-smartphone-market-share http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/24/9790810/apple-iphone-indi...). For a global giant its very very poor. Hence the need to sell cheaper mobiles.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >For a global giant its very very poor Not really, as that's not how they roll. They usually have small market share, but of the highest end / largest margin part of the market. Those 5% can yield like 30-50% of the profits of the whole smartphone industry in India, and 80% of the high-end (more expensive) smartphone profits. A company that only targets the high end of the market should be compared to other products/companies in that, not the overall.
        ocean3 11y ago
        come on dude don't keep on changing criteria. Anyway "Not really, as that's not how they roll" this does not hold good. They are trying to get a bigger market share in India. Hence they are trying to selling refurbished mobiles. Which would be cheaper compared to brand new. Emphasis on it been "cheap". They already do that selling gen old mobiles.
CharlesW 11y ago
A strangely-biased article, starting with the headline. But setting aside the concerns of the companies opposing this for obvious reasons, this is a really great idea. Consumers in poorer countries get the opportunity to buy used, high-end devices supported by the manufacturer, and those devices get another consumer cycle's worth of reuse before they get recycled. Plus Apple can now reach a large new segment of customers without compromising product quality or new-product margins.
- ocean3 11y ago
  Or they can price it according to the market. How many people in US buy iPhone at full price? Most mobiles are sold at full price in India.
  - 1stranger 11y ago
    > How many people in US buy iPhone at full price? Everybody. Anybody who doesn't is buying it on credit. They're still paying the full price (and then some).
    - ocean3 11y ago
      Installment plans are recent trend isn't it. I see previously it was 2 year contracts for 199 etc. emi are common in India as well. Apple could have done the same in India.
      - bdcravens 11y ago
        Before Apple offered installments plans, US carriers were offering them. Do Indian carriers do the same?
        gryph0n 11y ago
        The sales model is pretty different. In India, you'll typically buy your phone outright based on what features you're looking for (Dual SIM, OS version, Storage, etc). Hence manufacturers/retailers typically offer a EMI plan for top-end phones (think Samsung S7, Apple iPhone 6, etc) since the outright cost is quite high. Then you'll decide which carrier you want to use based on the tariffs they're offering (Voice Calls, data, SMS, etc.) Although carriers do offer phones with their plans, it's rarely ever bought in that manner.
npunt 11y ago
I understand India's desire to push for local manufacturing, and some of this is all just a bunch of theater dancing around that issue. Meanwhile, the Bloomberg article does a good job of letting us read between the lines about the vested interests in keeping Apple out -- > “The millions of imported used phones will need their batteries replaced. What will happen to those batteries, where will they go?” asked Sunil Vachani, chairman of Dixon Technologies, whose phone assemblies roll out a million phones a month for brands like Japan’s Panasonic and China’s Gionee. So what do they do with used batteries from other phones? This has nothing to do with whether a phone is imported or not.
- makomk 11y ago
  If a new phone is sold in India, its Indian owner benefits from the entire multi-year lifespan of the battery before it has to be disposed of. If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India. From this perspective, it's a way for the developed world to dump our e-waste on the developing world and avoid having to dispose of it ourselves.
  - simonh 11y ago
    After a few years I'd cracked the screen on my iPhone 4 and the battery was losing it's charge. I took it to an Apple store and they replaced it with a refurbished model for £100 and it's still going strong. The Apple store employee told me the phones get new batteries as part of the refurbishment.
  - glenndebacker 11y ago
    "If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India." If it is a refurbished model with a new battery that won't be the case. I have had refurbished Apple stuff in the past and those things were indistinguishable from new devices and yes that included the battery. I've I read correctly that a company like Samsung is a member of one the organisations that are complaining, I think there are other stakes at play then the green card. Especially when a company like Apple is involved. There is a lot to be critical about, but they tend to do their best in those departments.
draw_down 11y ago
http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/03/21/apple-hypocritical-insensitive-pc-users-old-pc/ http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/03/21/apple-hypocritical-... Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
mukundmr 11y ago
The backlash is just whiney competition. Many people in India see the iPhone as a status symbol. If it is more affordable and comes with a warranty from Apple, people will buy it even if it is refurbished.
arvinsim 11y ago
It shouldn't come as a surprise. There are many reasons why the incumbents don't want Apple entering the market.
planetjones 11y ago
There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to make it almost impossible for foreign companies. But then India is able to export its IT professionals and outsourcing across the whole world. Is this really a level playing field? Why is no one calling this out as foul play? India seems to want one rule for when it is abroad and another when it's at home.
- clevernickname 11y ago
  Donald Trump's trade policy in a nutshell.
- brainless 11y ago
  I understand what you are saying, but I think it is not true. Being an Indian and having lived there for 30+ years, I can hardly list any major international brand in any industry which isn't selling something there. Also all the big international brands are also big Indian brands, most people do not even care that they are not Indian owned brands. So yes, huge amounts of foreign brands sell in India, but perhaps with local manufacturing or assembly. It is not a closed country at all. edit/bid/big
  - planetjones 11y ago
    "We shall not entertain foreign direct investment in multibrand retail. There is no ambiguity or confusion on this. The same applies to e-commerce," the minister said in a news conference. http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investment-in-supermarkets-online-retail-1410182468 http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investm...
    - sandGorgon 11y ago
      This has not to due with manufacturing, but around government protecting the small shops against Walmart. What you may not know is that Walmart is operating in India but as a partner with the Tata group. The same applies to insurance, lending and banking business. So the brands we have are Tata-Starbucs, Bharti-Axa, Birla-Sunlife, etc.
brainless 11y ago
I find some of the comments really surprising here. If you notice the headline and the article, you will see, this is about "used" phones from a top tier manufacturer. None of the other companies (Samsung, LG, Nokia...) are doing it. Please do not compare this to Apple not being present in India. It is, in a large way, just not very affordable to masses, which Apple wants to change by selling old, used phones. Disclaimer: I am an Indian, with an iPhone 6 and its damn easy to find it anywhere in the country.
some1else 11y ago
I think Apple would have to have a highly backwards compatible and modular iOS for that to even make sense. I have an old iPhone 4 running iOS 6, and I don't think it passes for a useable device. Apple could make the latest iOS backwards compatible, and find ways to reduce computing requirements by omitting functional or visual features, but that would completely counter the current artificial obsolescence tactics. It's unfair to offload those to a developing market, until they decide to support a greater fragmentation of the platform.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  I don't see how Apple adding another option is "unfair". Adding an additional choice for consumers in a market rarely harms those consumers. (An iPhone 4 isn't mass-produced cigarettes.) Restricting choice for consumers in a market far more often harms them.
_ati 11y ago
If apple is allowed to sell refurbished phones in India surely lot more people will opt for those instead of the cheaper Chinese alternatives or Indian versions and this could be the reason why the manufacturers here don't want Apple in their price segment as it might affect them directly
arihant 11y ago
I don't see how this helps Apple. They offered cheaper versions with 8GB ROMs in India before. It backfired because though they were cheap it was a shitty experience. With iOS 9 underperforming even on iPhone 5S, I don't see how this more will do anything but tarnish Apple image further. Indian customers do not want to spend less. They want to spend as much as they can but expect longevity and quality. Historically Apple has provided that. Apple's iPhone 5S is 20K in India. Fairly affordable for an iPhone. If they are selling refurbished, they are trying to probably nibble at Moto G buyers. Even if they succeed, they are not a segment that is expected to exceedingly spend on App Stores or iCloud storage. That is the segment expecting things like Bluetooth file transfer. That is the segment not paying 1500/month for a decent plan which has enough LTE. All of Apple's moves these days are operational. It almost seems like COO has a complete run of the brand. Move the inventory. That's all that matters.

71 points by mastazi 11y ago

> The group’s members [who opposed Apple's application] include the largest Indian phone brands: Micromax, Intex and Samsung. Ah.

vacri 11y ago
Meh. Apple is asking to be treated like a special snowflake in this case, caught by their own elitism of not-selling-affordable-phones.
- Razengan 11y ago
  That may be so, but the "Mobile and Communications Council" (I assume it's a regulatory group) seems to include their direct competition. How sure can anyone be that there's going to be absolutely no conflict of interest?
  - vacri 11y ago
    Just because it has 'council' in the name doesn't mean it can make laws. And even then, why should Apple get a special exemption from a general law?
- coldtea 11y ago
  >caught by their own elitism of not-selling-affordable-phones. Yeah, and look where that got them. From near bankruptcy in 1997 to being only the most valuable (or in top 3 depending on when you look/how you measure) of companies on the planet.
  - vacri 11y ago
    So... why does that mean that they should get special exemption from a general law? Apple can't sell in India because they are too elitist to make a model priced for the developing world (which they can absolutely choose to do with their buckets of money), so why should they be allowed a special channel into a market that they want to treat as second-class?
    - coldtea 11y ago
      You do know that Apple sells second hand (refurbished) phones (and macs) in the US and West too, and they have been doing that since forever, right?
      - vacri 11y ago
        They want to increase their market share in India, but they're not willing to produce a cheaper phone for that, so they're asking for special treatment. Why should Apple get special treatment that others don't get in India? What is so magical about Apple that they should get this preferential treatment? It's funny, HN seems to be against corporate sweetheart deals, and loves stories about exposing corruption. But not against Apple! No, we'll not hear a word against those guys - they're special! Hell, when the recent Apple v FBI story broke, people here were talking about this 'the most valuable company on the planet' like it was the scrappy underdog, rather than the behemoth of industry it is. So... why does that mean that they should get special exemption from a general law?
        coldtea 11y ago
        >Why should Apple get special treatment that others don't get in India? What is so magical about Apple that they should get this preferential treatment? If the law changes to allow it, then it won't be "special treatment". What's so special about a random law that much be preserved for eternity? >It's funny, HN seems to be against corporate sweetheart deals, and loves stories about exposing corruption. Wanting / Asking to sell second-hand phones is corruption how?
        11y ago
  - ocean3 11y ago
    But that strategy did not work for them in India. Hence they are trying to sell cheaper refurbished models.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Well, they have been doing very well in India too: http://www.ibtimes.com/once-tough-market-apple-inc-indians-show-growing-taste-iphones-1796326 http://www.ibtimes.com/once-tough-market-apple-inc-indians-s... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/slideshow/appleindiasuccess/7-reasons-for-Apples-success-in-India/itslideshowviewall/19647039.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/slideshow/appleindia... In addition, they're trying to sell cheaper phones there.
      - ocean3 11y ago
        I don't think they have even 5% market share. (http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/24/9790810/apple-iphone-india-smartphone-market-share http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/24/9790810/apple-iphone-indi...). For a global giant its very very poor. Hence the need to sell cheaper mobiles.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >For a global giant its very very poor Not really, as that's not how they roll. They usually have small market share, but of the highest end / largest margin part of the market. Those 5% can yield like 30-50% of the profits of the whole smartphone industry in India, and 80% of the high-end (more expensive) smartphone profits. A company that only targets the high end of the market should be compared to other products/companies in that, not the overall.
        ocean3 11y ago
        come on dude don't keep on changing criteria. Anyway "Not really, as that's not how they roll" this does not hold good. They are trying to get a bigger market share in India. Hence they are trying to selling refurbished mobiles. Which would be cheaper compared to brand new. Emphasis on it been "cheap". They already do that selling gen old mobiles.

CharlesW 11y ago

A strangely-biased article, starting with the headline. But setting aside the concerns of the companies opposing this for obvious reasons, this is a really great idea. Consumers in poorer countries get the opportunity to buy used, high-end devices supported by the manufacturer, and those devices get another consumer cycle's worth of reuse before they get recycled. Plus Apple can now reach a large new segment of customers without compromising product quality or new-product margins.

ocean3 11y ago
Or they can price it according to the market. How many people in US buy iPhone at full price? Most mobiles are sold at full price in India.
- 1stranger 11y ago
  > How many people in US buy iPhone at full price? Everybody. Anybody who doesn't is buying it on credit. They're still paying the full price (and then some).
  - ocean3 11y ago
    Installment plans are recent trend isn't it. I see previously it was 2 year contracts for 199 etc. emi are common in India as well. Apple could have done the same in India.
    - bdcravens 11y ago
      Before Apple offered installments plans, US carriers were offering them. Do Indian carriers do the same?
      - gryph0n 11y ago
        The sales model is pretty different. In India, you'll typically buy your phone outright based on what features you're looking for (Dual SIM, OS version, Storage, etc). Hence manufacturers/retailers typically offer a EMI plan for top-end phones (think Samsung S7, Apple iPhone 6, etc) since the outright cost is quite high. Then you'll decide which carrier you want to use based on the tariffs they're offering (Voice Calls, data, SMS, etc.) Although carriers do offer phones with their plans, it's rarely ever bought in that manner.

npunt 11y ago

I understand India's desire to push for local manufacturing, and some of this is all just a bunch of theater dancing around that issue. Meanwhile, the Bloomberg article does a good job of letting us read between the lines about the vested interests in keeping Apple out -- > “The millions of imported used phones will need their batteries replaced. What will happen to those batteries, where will they go?” asked Sunil Vachani, chairman of Dixon Technologies, whose phone assemblies roll out a million phones a month for brands like Japan’s Panasonic and China’s Gionee. So what do they do with used batteries from other phones? This has nothing to do with whether a phone is imported or not.

makomk 11y ago
If a new phone is sold in India, its Indian owner benefits from the entire multi-year lifespan of the battery before it has to be disposed of. If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India. From this perspective, it's a way for the developed world to dump our e-waste on the developing world and avoid having to dispose of it ourselves.
- simonh 11y ago
  After a few years I'd cracked the screen on my iPhone 4 and the battery was losing it's charge. I took it to an Apple store and they replaced it with a refurbished model for £100 and it's still going strong. The Apple store employee told me the phones get new batteries as part of the refurbishment.
- glenndebacker 11y ago
  "If a used phone is imported from the US to India, its battery will be nearing the end of its life - most of the benefit of that battery goes to the original American owner, but the disposal costs are dumped on India." If it is a refurbished model with a new battery that won't be the case. I have had refurbished Apple stuff in the past and those things were indistinguishable from new devices and yes that included the battery. I've I read correctly that a company like Samsung is a member of one the organisations that are complaining, I think there are other stakes at play then the green card. Especially when a company like Apple is involved. There is a lot to be critical about, but they tend to do their best in those departments.

draw_down 11y ago

http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/03/21/apple-hypocritical-insensitive-pc-users-old-pc/ http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/03/21/apple-hypocritical-... Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

mukundmr 11y ago

The backlash is just whiney competition. Many people in India see the iPhone as a status symbol. If it is more affordable and comes with a warranty from Apple, people will buy it even if it is refurbished.

arvinsim 11y ago

It shouldn't come as a surprise. There are many reasons why the incumbents don't want Apple entering the market.

planetjones 11y ago

There's something deeply contradictory in India's attitude. For imports (including setting up supermarkets in India) there are levys, laws and regulations to make it almost impossible for foreign companies. But then India is able to export its IT professionals and outsourcing across the whole world. Is this really a level playing field? Why is no one calling this out as foul play? India seems to want one rule for when it is abroad and another when it's at home.

clevernickname 11y ago
Donald Trump's trade policy in a nutshell.
brainless 11y ago
I understand what you are saying, but I think it is not true. Being an Indian and having lived there for 30+ years, I can hardly list any major international brand in any industry which isn't selling something there. Also all the big international brands are also big Indian brands, most people do not even care that they are not Indian owned brands. So yes, huge amounts of foreign brands sell in India, but perhaps with local manufacturing or assembly. It is not a closed country at all. edit/bid/big
- planetjones 11y ago
  "We shall not entertain foreign direct investment in multibrand retail. There is no ambiguity or confusion on this. The same applies to e-commerce," the minister said in a news conference. http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investment-in-supermarkets-online-retail-1410182468 http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-wont-allow-foreign-investm...
  - sandGorgon 11y ago
    This has not to due with manufacturing, but around government protecting the small shops against Walmart. What you may not know is that Walmart is operating in India but as a partner with the Tata group. The same applies to insurance, lending and banking business. So the brands we have are Tata-Starbucs, Bharti-Axa, Birla-Sunlife, etc.

brainless 11y ago

I find some of the comments really surprising here. If you notice the headline and the article, you will see, this is about "used" phones from a top tier manufacturer. None of the other companies (Samsung, LG, Nokia...) are doing it. Please do not compare this to Apple not being present in India. It is, in a large way, just not very affordable to masses, which Apple wants to change by selling old, used phones. Disclaimer: I am an Indian, with an iPhone 6 and its damn easy to find it anywhere in the country.

some1else 11y ago

I think Apple would have to have a highly backwards compatible and modular iOS for that to even make sense. I have an old iPhone 4 running iOS 6, and I don't think it passes for a useable device. Apple could make the latest iOS backwards compatible, and find ways to reduce computing requirements by omitting functional or visual features, but that would completely counter the current artificial obsolescence tactics. It's unfair to offload those to a developing market, until they decide to support a greater fragmentation of the platform.

sokoloff 11y ago
I don't see how Apple adding another option is "unfair". Adding an additional choice for consumers in a market rarely harms those consumers. (An iPhone 4 isn't mass-produced cigarettes.) Restricting choice for consumers in a market far more often harms them.

_ati 11y ago

If apple is allowed to sell refurbished phones in India surely lot more people will opt for those instead of the cheaper Chinese alternatives or Indian versions and this could be the reason why the manufacturers here don't want Apple in their price segment as it might affect them directly

arihant 11y ago

I don't see how this helps Apple. They offered cheaper versions with 8GB ROMs in India before. It backfired because though they were cheap it was a shitty experience. With iOS 9 underperforming even on iPhone 5S, I don't see how this more will do anything but tarnish Apple image further. Indian customers do not want to spend less. They want to spend as much as they can but expect longevity and quality. Historically Apple has provided that. Apple's iPhone 5S is 20K in India. Fairly affordable for an iPhone. If they are selling refurbished, they are trying to probably nibble at Moto G buyers. Even if they succeed, they are not a segment that is expected to exceedingly spend on App Stores or iCloud storage. That is the segment expecting things like Bluetooth file transfer. That is the segment not paying 1500/month for a decent plan which has enough LTE. All of Apple's moves these days are operational. It almost seems like COO has a complete run of the brand. Move the inventory. That's all that matters.