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While this is an interesting idea, restaurants are booming right now. In many cities you also see the proliferation of cheap(ish) tasting/dégustation menus, an

• guard-of-terra 11y ago
  "if we want to allow businesses to operate in residential areas" Residential area without businesses sounds crazy. I have three bakeries and around ten restaurants within 300m of my current apartment, not counting general stores. I uses to live where there was a handful stores and nothing else, and moving was one of the best things I ever did.
  • Mikeb85 11y ago
    > Residential area without businesses sounds crazy. I have three bakeries and around ten restaurants within 300m of my current apartment, not counting general stores. I also have food businesses within 300m of where I live. There are mixed-use towers downtown. But that's not the same as businesses being inside your apartment building, one door over... You're right though, mixed use neighbourhoods are great. I enjoy them too. I love high-density neighbourhoods in Europe and elsewhere. But many suburbanites hate it. Many apartment dwellers would also be in for a big shock. It's something which isn't really part of our current city planning, and residents get mad when the government changes rules, never mind when neighbours suddenly decide to just flout the rules.
    • tamana 11y ago
      Even in suburbia, we are happy with commerce at the mini-downtown at the center of the development, but not right at our bedrooms.
  • carterehsmith 11y ago
    >> Residential area without businesses sounds crazy. Depends. If you are a young, single person without a car, yes, suburbs might not be a great place to live. On the other hand, if you have a family, and can afford it, you look for a neighborhood with good schools and low crime rate. You can pick your bakeries on your way back from work, and you can drive to any restaurant, local or not.
    • vidarh 11y ago
      It doesn't have to be either-or. I spent most of my childhood in a small town in Norway. Most of it was suburban. But almost everyone was within 10 minutes walk from a small grocery store, and within 20 minutes walk from downtown which held a couple of small shopping centres, a couple of shopping streets, the train and bus stations. Very few people lived next to any noisy businesses, but everyone lived near shops.
• Reedx 11y ago
  It's a can of worms in the same way that Uber and Airbnb are. Airbnb bypasses Hotel regulations and permits. Uber bypasses taxi medallions, which used to be extremely expensive and have suddenly lost their value. Anyone who bought one a few years ago is pretty much screwed...
• amelius 11y ago
  > Just like you can't run a hotel without the proper permits. This also holds for Bed-and-breakfasts, but somehow Airbnb is getting away with it.
  • arkades 11y ago
    Perhaps because I work in healthcare and not in ... whatever the analogous field is, but I don't see the massive harm to the public that attends an unlicensed BnB (except for the flouting of our collective rules-making about where businesses are, and the impact on neighbors who had one sprung on them), whereas allowing people to just say "I used an app, so I don't have to bother to follow the rules that keep me from sickening and/or killing people on a regular basis" seems significantly worse.
    • Mikeb85 11y ago
      > massive harm to the public that attends an unlicensed BnB Reduces property value for everyone around them. Causes a nuissance. Can be a safety hazard, having a steady stream of non-residents coming and going in an apartment block.
    • BrainInAJar 11y ago
      Some of the regulation exists to protect the housing stock, so allowing just anyone to open an arbitrary number of unlicensed hotels can (and definitely does) drive up the cost of rent
    • jacalata 11y ago
      fire codes is a big one - "I used an app so I don't have to make sure that there is a smoke detector, or regular inspections on the building wiring, or a second exit from the bedroom, or any signs showing where the exit is if you wake up in an unfamiliar place with smoke in your room, or even enough exits to handle all the people in the hotel trying to leave instantly".
    • jinglewoof 11y ago
      Imagine for a moment if your closest neighbors switched from being normal professional neighbors to being a short-term rental occupied by people who want to party on a budget. That projects a noise issue, a property value issue, and often a security issue onto external parties. There are also some issues for those who take the room (e.g. fire code, safety issues, etc that come up once in a million times, but aren't great); but my objection to AirBNB is the externalities generated, and the fact that Brian Chesky has made extraordinarily clear (through word and action) that he is intentionally facilitating the violations because that's more profitable for him. I'm using a throwaway to say this because stating honest truths about AirBNB (one of pg's highest return investments) gets you banned here, no matter how you say them.
• arkades 11y ago
  > We have to decide, as a society, if we want to allow businesses to operate in residential areas. We can't simply encourage people to break the law because it makes some guy with an app money... I really thought where you were going here was not about zoning, but was going to be "We have to decide, as a society, if we want to undo a couple centuries' worth of public health regulations because it makes some guy with an app money... "
  • tamana 11y ago
    Six of one. Chesterton's fence. The law exists for a reason, and the law should be enforced or changed, not selectively ignored.
    • coldtea 11y ago
      If Chesterton had seen modern laws (and he was already quite vocal for the proliferation of BS laws back in his day) he would never have brought forward his "fence" argument. Really, a huge numbers of modern laws and restrictions are as far removed from utility as possible. And unlike in "Chesterton's fence" case, it's not like they are old and we don't know why they come up with them back in the day. Quite the opposite. We DO know why the come with them, and for a lot of them, we witnessed lobby groups and special interests, concerned citizens "think of the children", etc press for them -- and it has been mostly BS.
      • arkades 11y ago
        You are speaking in broad generalities about a specific and narrow topic. Could you please clarify what public health / food sanitation laws you feel are the one-sided product of lobbyists and special interests and have no "Chesterton's Fence"-type value to speak of?
        • coldtea 11y ago
          Was mostly referring to the zoning restrictions the grant-parent mentioned, here are some examples: https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities https://mises.org/library/zoning-laws-destroy-communities http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-laws-and-the-rise-of-economic-inequality/417360/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/11/zoning-l... http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-the-crazy-face-of-zoning.html http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2010/12/17/best-of-blog-t... Though the situation and intent of lots of these is much worse, "City of Quartz" (book on LA's development) is quite illuminating for example. But lots of bad food laws too, e.g: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr/15/illegal-food-cheese-us-mimolette http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/apr... We have a share of BS laws in Europe too, that killed small producers with "safety regulations" and requirements designed so that only big buck corps can afford them -- despite having no issues whatsoever with said producers' products for centuries up until the 1990s or so when the laws got drafted...
• was_boring 11y ago
  Actually, in California and several other states you can sell certain items as long as you do not pass a given revenue number per year. See http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/08/food-entrepreneurs/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/08/food-entrepreneurs/
  • Mikeb85 11y ago
    That's very limited in scope. It applies basically to home-made preserves, baked goods and condiments. No meat, no food that is cooked to order. We allow the same things here - you can sell a limited selection of items in a bake sale at a community centre or farmers' market. But that's a far cry from a home-based restaurant, which goes well beyond the scope of laws like this.
• zappo2938 11y ago
  I've been writing code for 4 years now but have 17 years cooking experience, 11 in Michelin star restaurants and 6 as a private mega yacht chef. I have all professional small equipment in my home kitchen and the kitchen and dinning room are the same.[1] I am set up. People tell me to do a food sharing experience for the public and I quickly say no. First, I don't want strangers in my house especially if they are drinking. It's illegal to sell alcohol. It's illegal to sell food without health inspection and license. I've never in my entire career have had someone come back to me suffering from food poisoning from something I've served, however, there is serious personal liability concerns over health risks and if someone gets into an accident after drinking at my party. A restaurant can prepare a stock that can be used over a couple days in several different dishes. At home, I have to prepare a stock for only one dish. It is very inefficient. I can't buy only the amount of parsley I need, I have to buy the whole bunch and it's like $3 now. The worst is the prohibitively expensive price of purchasing food at retail prices especially gourmet products. If I purchase a whole filet, lamb from Costco, or cod and tuna from the local fish monger, I'm still paying $25 - $30 per person for food. Economically scaling is a huge problem. I can make a risotto for 8 people with almost the same effort I can make the same dish for 35 people. Running a 8 seat restaurant in my house economically and legally doesn't work. [1] http://imgur.com/a/P8FrP http://imgur.com/a/P8FrP
  • jonesb6 11y ago
    FWIW your kitchen is beautiful and your HTML is formatted nicely.
  • Laforet 11y ago
    Nice kitchen. Do you mind sharing what prompted you to switch career entirely?
    • deleted 11y ago
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  • toothbrush 11y ago
    Wow, that looks really good. I have rockstar-level (probably more, TBH) respect and admiration for serious professional chefs. Maybe i should do the inverse career switch, but i'm not sure i'd know where to begin. You must be popular for dinner parties with friends though. Something i've wondered about though, if and when you're invited to other peoples' dinner parties, is that weird? I have a friend who is a relatively good (not Michelin star or anything, but does it as her day job, and quite well IMHO) chef, which always makes me a bit jumpy / stage-frighty when cooking in front of her...
• minikomi 11y ago
  Someone just has to make the Airbnb of health inspectors I guess.
• shalmanese 11y ago
  Just like there's a very broad spectrum between having a friend crash on your house for the evening to running a full time tenement house, one size fits all regulation is an imperfect tool for this job and social, rather than legal forces seem much more adept at negotiating between competing interests. Underground restaurants have been operating for decades in countries all around the world with varying levels of formality and risk. For the most part, they're no more disruptive than that other friend on the block who likes to have dinner parties once a week. There may be a few who verge more into the full time restaurant side of the spectrum but they make up an exceedingly tiny percentage of underground dining. Most underground dining restaurants operate only one or two nights a week, in a single service, for 2 - 20 guests. This is a far cry from the multi-hundred covers a typical restaurant does and trying to apply the same standards of safety seems inappropriately draconian. No matter how popular underground dining gets, it's still dwarfed by many magnitudes by the "having friends over for dinner" scenario which remains completely unregulated. It's hard to imagine any risk for underground dining even ever approaching that which already exists through our normal social dining rituals. For the most part, report any underground restaurants that are truly disruptive but leave the rest alone and be happy that people are being entrepreneurial and doing something productive.
  • telesilla 11y ago
    >Underground restaurants have been operating for decades Having eaten at some of these underground restaurants, particularly in Mexico, Cuba and Argentina, I can comment that the experience was extremely positive. This is, I assume, due to regulation and corruption making it difficult for independent restauranteurs. However I would have much higher expectations of the same in say, California, where I might expect an independent restaurant to be extremely unique and have qualities you couldn't find in a regular setting.
• ingenieros 11y ago
  "restaurants are booming right now" David Chang recently published this open letter on GQ that paints a less rosy picture on the current state of affairs in the restaurant world: http://www.gq.com/story/david-chang-resturant-business-challenges http://www.gq.com/story/david-chang-resturant-business-chall...
  • Mikeb85 11y ago
    Because one anecdote is data... Fact is, the restaurant industry is bigger than ever. Consumers now spend more money eating out than on groceries. David Chang may not have figured out how to pay good salaries and make money, but many others have. And regardless, one failing restaurant (group) doesn't negate the fact that restaurant dollars are out there...
    • ingenieros 11y ago
      It's not just David Chang complaining about the slim profit margins that most restaurants operate with. Anyone who browses Eater on a regular basis will have come across multiple restaurant shutdowns almost on a daily basis. Does this mean that ALL restaurants struggle? Of course not, but you can't deny the fact that restaurants are extremely risky investments. This is why many well known chefs have started doing things like food trucks or pop up restaurants to test out new concepts rather than invest millions of dollars on signing a new building lease.
      • Mikeb85 11y ago
        Part of the problem is that restaurateurs generally come up through the 'system'. A system where they're treated like shit by others, paid poorly, and told that various costs and inputs 'should be' X and Y. They accept shitty pay, never really accrue much capital, so when they do finally decide to start on their own, they are at the mercy of various dubious investors imposing exceptionally terrible terms. I had the good luck of working with several chefs who wouldn't accept the 'status quo' of food cost, labour cost, ideal markup, etc... Including one who paid off all his debts (he was smart and didn't let investors take any equity) in about 2 years. We're talking capital investments well over a million - paid off in 2 years. And then there's the whole 'Bistronomie' movement in France and Europe, propagated by guides like 'Le Fooding'. By contrast, North America is running restaurants like Europe did 15 years ago. Some are making great profits, but too many are controlled by their investors, leaving little profit for the workers. > Of course not, but you can't deny the fact that restaurants are extremely risky investments. Tech startups are as well. It's just that founders are generally more insulated from the risks. Restaurants likely have a higher 'success' rate than startups, considering how many live off venture capital for years. I could rant for hours about what's wrong with restaurants (I did work in them for most of my working life). But that doesn't mean the 'industry' as a whole isn't booming. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/americans-spending-on-dining-out-just-overtook-grocery-sales-for-the-first-time-ever http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/americans-... For the right entrepreneurs, the money is there. They just need to operate more efficiently. David Chang himself demonstrates what's wrong with his model. He's not charging enough. He fears that what he's creating isn't worth more than he's charging, but he can't make a great profit. He should either charge more, or change his product to something he can charge more for. He's right - no one will pay $27 for ramen. Many restaurants specialize in ramen. He can't compete with that. I haven't been to all his restaurants, but it does seem as though he's become more and more conventional as his enterprise has grown - his first several ventures were definitely off-the-wall sorts of places. Looking at menus at his new places - they're far larger, more complex, and more conventional in format, even if the dishes themselves are quite interesting. IMO, the future is in smaller restaurants. Less workers. Limited menus. No investors sucking up profit. In many ways I see Japan as a glimpse into the future - entire neighbourhoods comprised of restaurants that are the size of a closet, with one artisan creating your food/drinks. It's not necessarily a 'scalable concept' like American investors like. But it's a way for workers to make a good living, and still create art and an 'experience'. And I would venture a guess, if one were to look at statistics, that the average restaurant is getting smaller...
• deleted 11y ago
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• dheera 11y ago
  Also, the margins on restaurants are miniscule. The margins on rental real estate are huge. It's easy to compete with hotels but hard to compete with restaurants. And as the owner of a AirBNB-style "restaurant", you actually have to buy groceries and do a good deal of work. Without volume there's no good way for you to pipeline the food preparation process as most restaurants do. Every time you have "customers", you can't work that day. You probably make nowhere near a day's worth of salary preparing meals for a couple of people, so it can't be your main source of income. As an AirBNB owner you can have a full-time job elsewhere AND some side income by renting out that extra bedroom, making it attractive to a lot of people.
  • ams6110 11y ago
    Margins on rental real-estate are huge? Where? Most landlords I know barely cover their debt service and taxes, because it's a competitive market.
    • vidarh 11y ago
      It depends greatly on location. But keep in mind leverage and capital growth. In my area of London, you could service a mortgage to 90% loan to value with the rent. Which means that if you have enough assets to convince a bank to give you a 90% mortgage (50% is more common, but it's possible), then if you merely cover your costs with the rental income, you have 10x leverage on the capital growth. Lets say 2% growth per year, and you have a 20% return. Obviously you are taking according risks, which is my the more typical LTV for but-to-rent mortgages is around 50%, which with 2% growth would give you only 4% return (but with a 50% LTV you'd likely have money left over after paying for the mortgage). But in general, the capital growth combined with the potential for leverage is the reason rental is so competitive, and the reason why returns on the rental income itself is deceptively low.
  • muzani 11y ago
    I'm not sure what it's it like for some countries, but having done a cafe of my own, I found gross profit margins on restaurants to be huge. As far as making money goes, restaurants are a near foolproof way to convert time and money into more money. Of course running a restaurant can be extremely tiring and frustrating. The money is good because not many people have the patience to work 60 hours a week for 10 years straight to make a million dollars. It's just better to do a startup or get a full time job making games or something.
• foobar1962 11y ago
  That Law Review article makes an interesting point: "In other ways, however, underground dining seems quite similar to old-fashioned, antiregulatory libertarianism, with chefs playing the role of factory owners who would prefer to produce goods without having to worry about expensive and burdensome health and safety regulations.
• simonebrunozzi 11y ago
  > Just like you can't run a hotel without the proper permits. You can, it's called AirBnB.