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The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestin

The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestine plan, without any public awareness. And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. The US Govt. is capable of pretty much ANYTHING when it operates under the guise of "Protecting America." We can thank the Patriot Act (ever version 2 of it) for all the loss of freedoms and jack-booted state.

duaneb 11y ago
> And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. Has this really happened? I know the chicago police got caught running domestic black sites but this would dwarf even that.
mirimir 11y ago
This is not new! In The Puzzle Palace, Bamford describes how telegraph companies loaned paper records to federal intelligence services. How teletype companies loaned wire recordings, and later tapes. Mostly they relied on patriotism. Sometimes threats. International mail has always been subject to inspection.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Abraham Lincoln had the nations' telegraph wires all terminate in a room in Washington DC, get received and inspected, then retransmitted. That was 150 years ago.
  - fosco 11y ago
    considering that the first line in the states was built from DC to Baltimore [0] I find this a bit like the comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. If part of the technology was invented in a specific area where a large group of people had knowledge then that is the reason why it is a central point of crossing (termination) [0] http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor
    - kuschku 11y ago
      > comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. Funnily, 70% of the internet also goes through Frankfurt (DE-CIX, largest IX globally). The 70% number is also the most commonly made up number for made up statistics, of which there are many.
- dekhn 11y ago
  It's also mentioned in The Idea Factory; the head of Bell Labs and most AT&T leadership had "secret schedules" where they visited DC to receive orders and transmit information.
- jdc 11y ago
  The Feds' ability to acquire signals has not changed. Their ability to process signals has changed drastically.
tlrobinson 11y ago
Why was the San Bernardino FBI/Apple thing not done via NSL?
- darpa_escapee 11y ago
  To set a precedent. They had the ability, but wanted to gain access to any phone for any case without having to dip into their budget. Even ones that don't threaten national security.
- beeboop 11y ago
  NSL only makes it so Apple can't talk about it. It doesn't make it so they have to make a new operating system just because the FBI told them to. There wasn't an easy way to create the precedent of forcing Apple to do what they wanted without it being public.
- brians 11y ago
  Because NSLs are very tightly constrained. They're only for telecoms metadata and subscriber information, and they're only for national security use. There almost certainly were NSLs served on the shooters' phone companies---about the most reasonable use of them one can imagine. They would not compel Apple to do a thing about a phone held by its owner, the City of San Bernadino.
- EdHominem 11y ago
  Because they knew the phone wasn't important from day one and they decided to play a political game. I said a month ago or more that there are companies that do this and the FBI should just ask one. And moreover that these companies were beating down the FBI's door wanting to do it to prove themselves.
CaptSpify 11y ago
Proof? I absolutely believe this to be true, but we cant say it is true without evidence EDIT: As pointed out below by kazinator, I suspect this to be true, I do not believe this to be true.
- fancy_pantser 11y ago
  Here is a good primer that includes some example companies that self-report the impact of NSLs, including Microsoft, Yahoo, Verizon... https://epic.org/privacy/nsl/ https://epic.org/privacy/nsl/
- kazinator 11y ago
  What's the point of believing something if you can't regard it as true due to lack of evidence? That's usually reserved for religious faith. If you suspect something, there has to be a reason. You have a certain level of evidence to support a suspicion, a higher level to support a deeper suspicion, a lot more to support being "practically certain" and so on. The role played by suspicion in a rational context is to justify a search for more information, or to justify some precaution being taken.
  - CaptSpify 11y ago
    > The role played by suspicion in a rational context is to justify a search for more information Is that not what I'm doing? I believe it to be true, but I'm not saying it's absolutely true because I currently have no proof.
    - singlow 11y ago
      He is asking why you believe something if there is no proof. Rationally proof should precede belief, but suspicion is better suited to describe your position. I understand your use of the word "belief" but I think I do prefer his usage.
      - CaptSpify 11y ago
        Oh, I see. Yes, just poor wording on my part thanks
jacquesm 11y ago
> And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. That's a pretty bold claim to make without evidence that such things have already happened. 'May' doesn't cut it. Anything 'may' happen.
- pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
  that's the point, genius.
- the_ancient 11y ago
  I always love this argument, the NSA routinely uses it in Court to eliminate any challenge based on Standing Since the NSA will never admit they violated the constitution, no one can get discovery to prove they did, thus they will never be held to account. The very Nature of "national security" and the ability of the government to literally make everything including the price they pay for a hammer a matter of "national security" and hide these things under the impenetrable cloak of that claim is a major damn problem. As to the charge they have "disappeared" people, given we know 100% factually that the CIA perpetrated immoral renditions for the purposes of torturing people "legally" I fail to see why you do not believe other branches of the government did not follow the same play book Hell they have admitted to executing US Citizens with out trial... I do not believe there is anything they will not do.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    I'd be very interested in a story about a technology device manufacturer employee--a U.S. citizen--who was disappeared by the U.S. federal government for discussing a national security letter or any other attempt to access information. I've never heard of one, or even the allegation of one.
    - the_ancient 11y ago
      Even if someone would present such a case there would be soo little tangible evidence and many other "more plausible" theories as to why the person disappeared it would be simply dismissed as a conspiracy People want to reject the idea their government is immoral, so they do...
brians 11y ago
Nonsense. Read https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2709 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2709 ; you just can't twist that to compel a computer manufacturer to unlock a computer and reveal data. It's targeted at telecoms providers (so maybe Apple iCloud) and metadata and subscriber records.
magicalist 11y ago
> The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestine plan, without any public awareness. It's a shame this is the top post. A National Security Letter absolutely cannot do anything like this. NSLs are such a weird HN boogeyman. Absolutely a violation of the first and fourth amendments, but they are administrative subpoenas. They cannot compel the kind of action you're talking about. There are plenty of ways to twist interpretations of statute to try and make investigative and prosecutorial overreaches legal, but it's ridiculous how often these NSL posts get voted up to "educate" others on a subject the poster clearly hasn't even read up on themselves.
- tablewatcher 11y ago
  As someone who is not American it doesn't matter to me how it's worded or under what category it falls, but that the three letter agencies can completely silence individuals so that they can do whatever they want with immunity is absolutely terrifying. Lavabit, and the Ross Ulbricht case are particularly bad examples that spring to mind.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - sametmax 11y ago
    Pretty much. It means the very basics of your legal system, the habeas corpus, went to the trash bin. And ours are unfortunatly following.
- tempodox 11y ago
  The fact remains that after the words “National Security” have been uttered, the Constitution and the Law go right down the drain.
  - nxzero 11y ago
    Not sure that law goes down the drain, but would agree that it's an often hard type of law to understand since by nature it is secretive.

duaneb 11y ago

> And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. Has this really happened? I know the chicago police got caught running domestic black sites but this would dwarf even that.

mirimir 11y ago

This is not new! In The Puzzle Palace, Bamford describes how telegraph companies loaned paper records to federal intelligence services. How teletype companies loaned wire recordings, and later tapes. Mostly they relied on patriotism. Sometimes threats. International mail has always been subject to inspection.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Abraham Lincoln had the nations' telegraph wires all terminate in a room in Washington DC, get received and inspected, then retransmitted. That was 150 years ago.
- fosco 11y ago
  considering that the first line in the states was built from DC to Baltimore [0] I find this a bit like the comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. If part of the technology was invented in a specific area where a large group of people had knowledge then that is the reason why it is a central point of crossing (termination) [0] http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor
  - kuschku 11y ago
    > comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. Funnily, 70% of the internet also goes through Frankfurt (DE-CIX, largest IX globally). The 70% number is also the most commonly made up number for made up statistics, of which there are many.
dekhn 11y ago
It's also mentioned in The Idea Factory; the head of Bell Labs and most AT&T leadership had "secret schedules" where they visited DC to receive orders and transmit information.
jdc 11y ago
The Feds' ability to acquire signals has not changed. Their ability to process signals has changed drastically.

tlrobinson 11y ago

Why was the San Bernardino FBI/Apple thing not done via NSL?

darpa_escapee 11y ago
To set a precedent. They had the ability, but wanted to gain access to any phone for any case without having to dip into their budget. Even ones that don't threaten national security.
beeboop 11y ago
NSL only makes it so Apple can't talk about it. It doesn't make it so they have to make a new operating system just because the FBI told them to. There wasn't an easy way to create the precedent of forcing Apple to do what they wanted without it being public.
brians 11y ago
Because NSLs are very tightly constrained. They're only for telecoms metadata and subscriber information, and they're only for national security use. There almost certainly were NSLs served on the shooters' phone companies---about the most reasonable use of them one can imagine. They would not compel Apple to do a thing about a phone held by its owner, the City of San Bernadino.
EdHominem 11y ago
Because they knew the phone wasn't important from day one and they decided to play a political game. I said a month ago or more that there are companies that do this and the FBI should just ask one. And moreover that these companies were beating down the FBI's door wanting to do it to prove themselves.

CaptSpify 11y ago

Proof? I absolutely believe this to be true, but we cant say it is true without evidence EDIT: As pointed out below by kazinator, I suspect this to be true, I do not believe this to be true.

fancy_pantser 11y ago
Here is a good primer that includes some example companies that self-report the impact of NSLs, including Microsoft, Yahoo, Verizon... https://epic.org/privacy/nsl/ https://epic.org/privacy/nsl/
kazinator 11y ago
What's the point of believing something if you can't regard it as true due to lack of evidence? That's usually reserved for religious faith. If you suspect something, there has to be a reason. You have a certain level of evidence to support a suspicion, a higher level to support a deeper suspicion, a lot more to support being "practically certain" and so on. The role played by suspicion in a rational context is to justify a search for more information, or to justify some precaution being taken.
- CaptSpify 11y ago
  > The role played by suspicion in a rational context is to justify a search for more information Is that not what I'm doing? I believe it to be true, but I'm not saying it's absolutely true because I currently have no proof.
  - singlow 11y ago
    He is asking why you believe something if there is no proof. Rationally proof should precede belief, but suspicion is better suited to describe your position. I understand your use of the word "belief" but I think I do prefer his usage.
    - CaptSpify 11y ago
      Oh, I see. Yes, just poor wording on my part thanks

jacquesm 11y ago

> And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. That's a pretty bold claim to make without evidence that such things have already happened. 'May' doesn't cut it. Anything 'may' happen.

pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
that's the point, genius.
the_ancient 11y ago
I always love this argument, the NSA routinely uses it in Court to eliminate any challenge based on Standing Since the NSA will never admit they violated the constitution, no one can get discovery to prove they did, thus they will never be held to account. The very Nature of "national security" and the ability of the government to literally make everything including the price they pay for a hammer a matter of "national security" and hide these things under the impenetrable cloak of that claim is a major damn problem. As to the charge they have "disappeared" people, given we know 100% factually that the CIA perpetrated immoral renditions for the purposes of torturing people "legally" I fail to see why you do not believe other branches of the government did not follow the same play book Hell they have admitted to executing US Citizens with out trial... I do not believe there is anything they will not do.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  I'd be very interested in a story about a technology device manufacturer employee--a U.S. citizen--who was disappeared by the U.S. federal government for discussing a national security letter or any other attempt to access information. I've never heard of one, or even the allegation of one.
  - the_ancient 11y ago
    Even if someone would present such a case there would be soo little tangible evidence and many other "more plausible" theories as to why the person disappeared it would be simply dismissed as a conspiracy People want to reject the idea their government is immoral, so they do...

brians 11y ago

Nonsense. Read https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2709 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2709 ; you just can't twist that to compel a computer manufacturer to unlock a computer and reveal data. It's targeted at telecoms providers (so maybe Apple iCloud) and metadata and subscriber records.

magicalist 11y ago

> The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestine plan, without any public awareness. It's a shame this is the top post. A National Security Letter absolutely cannot do anything like this. NSLs are such a weird HN boogeyman. Absolutely a violation of the first and fourth amendments, but they are administrative subpoenas. They cannot compel the kind of action you're talking about. There are plenty of ways to twist interpretations of statute to try and make investigative and prosecutorial overreaches legal, but it's ridiculous how often these NSL posts get voted up to "educate" others on a subject the poster clearly hasn't even read up on themselves.

tablewatcher 11y ago
As someone who is not American it doesn't matter to me how it's worded or under what category it falls, but that the three letter agencies can completely silence individuals so that they can do whatever they want with immunity is absolutely terrifying. Lavabit, and the Ross Ulbricht case are particularly bad examples that spring to mind.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- sametmax 11y ago
  Pretty much. It means the very basics of your legal system, the habeas corpus, went to the trash bin. And ours are unfortunatly following.
tempodox 11y ago
The fact remains that after the words “National Security” have been uttered, the Constitution and the Law go right down the drain.
- nxzero 11y ago
  Not sure that law goes down the drain, but would agree that it's an often hard type of law to understand since by nature it is secretive.