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Google Also Has Been Ordered to Help Unlock Phones, Records Show

257 points by sinak 11y ago

ergothus 11y ago
Article simply counts when the All Writs Act has been used to make a request of Google and Apple, not focusing on what that help was, and thus, isn't terribly informative. For example, when Apple turned over the iCloud data for the San Bernardino iPhone, I don't know if that was under the All Writs Act or not, but Apple claimed no problem with doing so. If Google did similar (or, in the one case this article details, reset a password), that's completely compatible with Apple's recent stance.
- JamilD 11y ago
  iCloud Data can be obtained with just a search warrant. The power of the All Writs Act is in making a company do work to assist in decrypting or accessing data, rather than just handing it over. From Apple's Legal Process Guidelines [0]: "It is further ordered that, to the extent that data on the Device is encrypted, Apple may provide a copy of the encrypted data to law enforcement but Apple is not required to attempt to decrypt, or otherwise enable law enforcement's attempts to access any encrypted data." [0] http://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf http://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guideline...
  - devnull42 11y ago
    Correct but they would not have had access to the the iCloud data without Apple doing work (Resetting password or handing over a copy of the data) The original comment is correct.
    - JamilD 11y ago
      My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong!) is that handing over a copy of the data does not fall under All Writs. If the map included warrants for iCloud data, etc, I'm pretty sure all 50 states would be colored.
      - Bluestrike2 11y ago
        You're correct. The All Writs Act is only of use if there are no alternative remedies. The best way to think of the Act is as a catch-all. It gets used when other remedies aren't applicable or don't exist.
    - nl 11y ago
      Both comments are correct - Apple supplies iCloud data with a warrant[1], but the iPhone access was going to be under the All Writs Act[2]. No judge is going to accept an argument that handing over iCloud data is going to be an unreasonable amount of work to do in response to a warrant - and Apple hasn't even attempted to argue that. [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/05/new-guidelines-outline-what-iphone-data-apple-can-give-to-police/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/05/new-guidelines-outline-... [2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/how-apple-will-fight-the-doj-in-iphone-backdoor-crypto-case/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/how-apple-will-fi...
    - shalmanese 11y ago
      I believe San Bernardino County was the owner of the iPhone so resetting the password would have gone through the standard process of sending a password reset request and then capturing the email at the server. Apple may have assisted in providing the iCloud data in a more digestible form than what's available in the public web interface but that's more a matter of convenience than access.
samstokes 11y ago
This quote from "a Google spokesman" seems unambiguous and key: "We’ve never received an All Writs Act order like the one Apple recently fought that demands we build new tools that actively compromise our products’ security.... We would strongly object to such an order."
- kuschku 11y ago
  Eh, that doesn’t answer the question, though. "We never were forced to build an additional backdoor" could just as well mean "because we already had one" EDIT: 10min after posting already at -2? Seriously? Please post a comment why you disagree instead of just downvoting.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    I didn't vote, and I don't disagree with you per se, but I also don't really know what you're saying. In the context of the quote, there was no question indicated, so it's very hard to tell what question wasn't answered.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      The question of "does Google have a backdoor" - which is what was implied here.
      - oldmanjay 11y ago
        I think you can only infer that question if you didn't read the article.
  - pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
    how about because someone else said the same thing before you? here, i'll try now... maybe google was able to say they didn't receive an all writs act, because they just received a "do this for us or else" letter, and they already had a backdoor, so they didn't have to build one. don't downvote me. ever.
  - 11y ago
devindotcom 11y ago
The ACLU post/map is pretty good. It's based on gov prosecutor report from October that Apple and Google had complied with All Writs orders scores of times before. More details at court orders linked to each case. https://www.aclu.org/map/all-writs-act-orders-assistance-tech-companies https://www.aclu.org/map/all-writs-act-orders-assistance-tec...
ClayFerguson 11y ago
The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestine plan, without any public awareness. And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. The US Govt. is capable of pretty much ANYTHING when it operates under the guise of "Protecting America." We can thank the Patriot Act (ever version 2 of it) for all the loss of freedoms and jack-booted state.
- duaneb 11y ago
  > And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. Has this really happened? I know the chicago police got caught running domestic black sites but this would dwarf even that.
- mirimir 11y ago
  This is not new! In The Puzzle Palace, Bamford describes how telegraph companies loaned paper records to federal intelligence services. How teletype companies loaned wire recordings, and later tapes. Mostly they relied on patriotism. Sometimes threats. International mail has always been subject to inspection.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Abraham Lincoln had the nations' telegraph wires all terminate in a room in Washington DC, get received and inspected, then retransmitted. That was 150 years ago.
    - fosco 11y ago
      considering that the first line in the states was built from DC to Baltimore [0] I find this a bit like the comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. If part of the technology was invented in a specific area where a large group of people had knowledge then that is the reason why it is a central point of crossing (termination) [0] http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor
ikeboy 11y ago
What capability is unique to Google? Anyone can replace the rom if the bootloader is unlocked, and if it isn't, they need the manufacturer, not Google.

257 points by sinak 11y ago

Article simply counts when the All Writs Act has been used to make a request of Google and Apple, not focusing on what that help was, and thus, isn't terribly informative. For example, when Apple turned over the iCloud data for the San Bernardino iPhone, I don't know if that was under the All Writs Act or not, but Apple claimed no problem with doing so. If Google did similar (or, in the one case this article details, reset a password), that's completely compatible with Apple's recent stance.

JamilD 11y ago
iCloud Data can be obtained with just a search warrant. The power of the All Writs Act is in making a company do work to assist in decrypting or accessing data, rather than just handing it over. From Apple's Legal Process Guidelines [0]: "It is further ordered that, to the extent that data on the Device is encrypted, Apple may provide a copy of the encrypted data to law enforcement but Apple is not required to attempt to decrypt, or otherwise enable law enforcement's attempts to access any encrypted data." [0] http://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf http://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guideline...
- devnull42 11y ago
  Correct but they would not have had access to the the iCloud data without Apple doing work (Resetting password or handing over a copy of the data) The original comment is correct.
  - JamilD 11y ago
    My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong!) is that handing over a copy of the data does not fall under All Writs. If the map included warrants for iCloud data, etc, I'm pretty sure all 50 states would be colored.
    - Bluestrike2 11y ago
      You're correct. The All Writs Act is only of use if there are no alternative remedies. The best way to think of the Act is as a catch-all. It gets used when other remedies aren't applicable or don't exist.
  - nl 11y ago
    Both comments are correct - Apple supplies iCloud data with a warrant[1], but the iPhone access was going to be under the All Writs Act[2]. No judge is going to accept an argument that handing over iCloud data is going to be an unreasonable amount of work to do in response to a warrant - and Apple hasn't even attempted to argue that. [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/05/new-guidelines-outline-what-iphone-data-apple-can-give-to-police/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/05/new-guidelines-outline-... [2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/how-apple-will-fight-the-doj-in-iphone-backdoor-crypto-case/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/how-apple-will-fi...
  - shalmanese 11y ago
    I believe San Bernardino County was the owner of the iPhone so resetting the password would have gone through the standard process of sending a password reset request and then capturing the email at the server. Apple may have assisted in providing the iCloud data in a more digestible form than what's available in the public web interface but that's more a matter of convenience than access.

samstokes 11y ago

This quote from "a Google spokesman" seems unambiguous and key: "We’ve never received an All Writs Act order like the one Apple recently fought that demands we build new tools that actively compromise our products’ security.... We would strongly object to such an order."

kuschku 11y ago
Eh, that doesn’t answer the question, though. "We never were forced to build an additional backdoor" could just as well mean "because we already had one" EDIT: 10min after posting already at -2? Seriously? Please post a comment why you disagree instead of just downvoting.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  I didn't vote, and I don't disagree with you per se, but I also don't really know what you're saying. In the context of the quote, there was no question indicated, so it's very hard to tell what question wasn't answered.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    The question of "does Google have a backdoor" - which is what was implied here.
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      I think you can only infer that question if you didn't read the article.
- pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
  how about because someone else said the same thing before you? here, i'll try now... maybe google was able to say they didn't receive an all writs act, because they just received a "do this for us or else" letter, and they already had a backdoor, so they didn't have to build one. don't downvote me. ever.
- 11y ago

devindotcom 11y ago

The ACLU post/map is pretty good. It's based on gov prosecutor report from October that Apple and Google had complied with All Writs orders scores of times before. More details at court orders linked to each case. https://www.aclu.org/map/all-writs-act-orders-assistance-tech-companies https://www.aclu.org/map/all-writs-act-orders-assistance-tec...

ClayFerguson 11y ago

The feds have gone to ALL device makers and demanded access, using National Security Letters each time to force the manufacturers to enter into their clandestine plan, without any public awareness. And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. The US Govt. is capable of pretty much ANYTHING when it operates under the guise of "Protecting America." We can thank the Patriot Act (ever version 2 of it) for all the loss of freedoms and jack-booted state.

duaneb 11y ago
> And if anyone spills the beans they may just get disappeared into a special holding facility. Has this really happened? I know the chicago police got caught running domestic black sites but this would dwarf even that.
mirimir 11y ago
This is not new! In The Puzzle Palace, Bamford describes how telegraph companies loaned paper records to federal intelligence services. How teletype companies loaned wire recordings, and later tapes. Mostly they relied on patriotism. Sometimes threats. International mail has always been subject to inspection.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Abraham Lincoln had the nations' telegraph wires all terminate in a room in Washington DC, get received and inspected, then retransmitted. That was 150 years ago.
  - fosco 11y ago
    considering that the first line in the states was built from DC to Baltimore [0] I find this a bit like the comments that 70% of the worlds internet goes through Northern Virginia[1]. If part of the technology was invented in a specific area where a large group of people had knowledge then that is the reason why it is a central point of crossing (termination) [0] http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_1.html http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/reform/jb_reform_morsecod_... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulles_Technology_Corridor

ikeboy 11y ago

What capability is unique to Google? Anyone can replace the rom if the bootloader is unlocked, and if it isn't, they need the manufacturer, not Google.