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Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the

Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the right direction. While I never agreed with the nonsensical "Safari is the New IE" meme that was going around, I did fear that Apple's tendency to develop things in a vacuum would continue to harm WebKit relative to Blink, Gecko, etc. But all signs are pointing to good things to come. Perhaps Apple's major open source initiative in the area of Swift language and the Swift ecosystem is also benefiting their approach to WebKit now as well.

deleted 11y ago
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therealmarv 11y ago
what steps? Any prove? BTW here a good example how Chrome & Safari team cannot communicate and everyone of them implements their own HTML standards. Here gesture support (pinch and zoom, trackpad) on desktops https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=596689 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=596689 for what reason we have W3C/WHATWG etc. ?
- masklinn 11y ago
  https://webkit.org/status https://webkit.org/status is one, this very article above is an other, the much more significant than usual mid-cycle Safari 9.1 is a third. These are 3 things which happened in the last 3 months or so and are more progress than Apple had shown in the last what, 3 or 4 years at least?
chris_wot 11y ago
Their time to fix bugs and regressions in iOS is 3 months! Edit: Again, I write a very unpopular opinion. Yet there are hundreds of regressions that have bit developers. Some of those bugs require workarounds that would be otherwise unnecessary on any normal environment with rapid updates - like Chrome or Firefox. That increases developer effort, and there have been cases that Apple have entirely missed their update and so folks wait for 6 or more months for a fix! People can be unhappy with my comment (the score is bouncing up and down like a yo-yo!), I really don't care - but having been one of quite a few website maintainers that have had to work around Apple's bugs, it's very frustrating for both the end user and the developer.
- shadowfiend 11y ago
  Downvoter here: I downvoted early on because you're making an argument that seems to me both not particularly good and off-topic to the post you replied to. OP posited: “Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the right direction.” You basically responded, “They're still not as good as I want them to be!” It's a point that has nothing to do with the original comment, which was about improvement, not perfection, and about how seriously they take Safari/Webkit development, not about their release process (which remains roughly the same as it has been for the past many years). Additionally, regarding the workarounds you mention: they are unnecessary in a “normal environment with rapid updates” only when those developers decide to fix your bug. Again: rapid updates are only useful if your bug is being addressed. I've got workarounds in my code for issues in Firefox that probably won't be fixed anytime soon, and features that Firefox and Chrome support poorly that they won't support well for a while, etc, etc. I'm not saying Apple couldn't be releasing bug fixes for Safari on any platform faster—they certainly could. But you made an unrelated complaint as a reply to a specific comment, and your argument seems suspect to boot.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    I don't care how much I've been downvoted, especially by someone who contributes their own comments so infrequently to HN, but it's funny how you only now decided to make a comment. I personally feel that Apple are still not as good as not only I want them to be, but pretty much anyone who uses or develops for iOS. But yes, you categorize my comments and opinions well - Apple are indeed not very responsive, and yes Apple need to do a hell of a lot better. As I say, the votes are bouncing up and down, so I'm not the only one who has holds this opinion. And no, it's not off-topic. As an end user, I now have to incorporate workarounds that no normal user should have to make to get around their issues - I'm literally running Charles proxy (until iOS 9.3 fixed their issue) and a rewrite rule to get around their ridiculous bug. And I had to run it for 3 months. Firefox and Chrome has an issue like this one fixed within their next cycle - in other words, in no time at all. All of which means I'm not afraid, ashamed or worried about downvotes from folks like yourself. I've not said anything offensive, sexist, racist or even all that terribly controversial. You've finally come out of the woodwork to make your comment, which I appreciate. If only you had made it sooner, eh?
ryanjshaw 11y ago
I'll take them seriously when they release something that runs on Windows.
- Longhanks 11y ago
  WebKit runs on Windows. It's not Apple's task to package it nicely for you. Chrome was using WebKit a long time, Blink is a WebKit fork. Both run on Windows.
  - yuhong 11y ago
    I was wondering what is the current status of WebKit for Windows since the Blink fork for some time now.
    - tangue 11y ago
      I've never had the courage to build Webkit on Windows but Midori (which is webkit based) works quite well on Win 8
  - ryanjshaw 11y ago
    > WebKit runs on Windows. WebKit != Safari or Chrome or anything else. Safari has quirks that you cannot experience without using Safari itself, which you still cannot run without a Mac. When you've wasted hours trying to track down one of these issues and realise it's a Safari quirk you'll understand my annoyance. > It's not Apple's task to package it nicely for you. I'm not sure where you get this idea from given that it contradicts the article: "Safari Technology Preview is a standalone application that can be used side-by-side with Safari or other web browsers... It’s a great way to test upcoming WebKit features and give feedback to the people building them when it’s most useful." I'm pointing out my opinion that they cannot meaningfully achieve that result without a Windows implementation.
    - abiox 11y ago
      what constitutes "meaningfully achieve that result"?
crabasa 11y ago
Safari IS the new IE. Proof? IE executed a "developer preview" strategy leading up to IE9 6 years ago. I should know, I was a PM on that team. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ie9-preview-6-available-now-with-sekrit-beta-ui/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ie9-pr... This entire episode is just a rinse and repeat of what MSFT did years ago in response to negative developer sentiment.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >IE executed a "developer preview" strategy leading up to IE9 6 years ago. I should know, I was a PM on that team. That (Safari adopting "developer previews" now) doesn't mean much regarding whether Safari is the new IE. When people say that phrase they don't mean their both trying (or having tried) developer previews. They mean whether Safari is as backwards and holding the web back as IE6 was for ages. Which is not. IE9 was years behind Safari at the time you talk about (6 years ago) --and really first version of IE that started to really compete at all for the modern web--, while Safari was, and still is (the preview) at the top of the heap regarding ES6 compliance, etc. And while much smaller in userbase, Safari grew along with the modern web, introducing major new features that IE hasn't done since 2000 or so (Canvas, CSS animations, etc), being the basis for Chrome, and getting the JIT treatment right along the 2 other modern browsers (Chrome, FF). As for the mobile space, Safari has been lagging in some features (compared to desktop browsers), but was always ahead of the pack in lots of areas, to the point one cannot say mobile Chrome is that better. In fact, maybe the opposite: https://blog.runspired.com/2016/03/25/the-chrome-distortion-chrome-alters-our-expectations-in-highly-negative-ways/ https://blog.runspired.com/2016/03/25/the-chrome-distortion-...
  - crabasa 11y ago
    > They mean whether Safari is as backwards and holding the web back as IE6 was for ages. Safari is holding back the mobile web the exact same way IE held back the desktop web for the exact same reason: native apps. > while Safari was... at the top of the heap Lol? I know very few (none?) web developers who uses Safari as their primary target browser. ES6 support or not. > cherry picked pro-Safari blog post https://joreteg.com/blog/why-i-switched-to-android https://joreteg.com/blog/why-i-switched-to-android
blackkettle 11y ago
IMHO, until they decide to provide proper HTML5 support - particularly access to the getUserMedia and general WebRTC APIs - or at least allow 3rd party vendors like Google and Mozilla to do so by themselves, this is not a believable sentiment.
- om2 11y ago
  Media Capture and WebRTC are in development in the public WebKit repository. These features aren't really part of HTML5 though. And while some web apps really need these features, most would not use them at all. So I'm curious why this in particular is your litmus test. I think an even wider range of web apps will benefit from our IndexedDB revamp, Shadow DOM, ES6, fast tap, font-feature-settings, picture element, CSS Variables, and other cool stuff we shipped recently or have in the works.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

therealmarv 11y ago

what steps? Any prove? BTW here a good example how Chrome & Safari team cannot communicate and everyone of them implements their own HTML standards. Here gesture support (pinch and zoom, trackpad) on desktops https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=596689 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=596689 for what reason we have W3C/WHATWG etc. ?

masklinn 11y ago
https://webkit.org/status https://webkit.org/status is one, this very article above is an other, the much more significant than usual mid-cycle Safari 9.1 is a third. These are 3 things which happened in the last 3 months or so and are more progress than Apple had shown in the last what, 3 or 4 years at least?

chris_wot 11y ago

Their time to fix bugs and regressions in iOS is 3 months! Edit: Again, I write a very unpopular opinion. Yet there are hundreds of regressions that have bit developers. Some of those bugs require workarounds that would be otherwise unnecessary on any normal environment with rapid updates - like Chrome or Firefox. That increases developer effort, and there have been cases that Apple have entirely missed their update and so folks wait for 6 or more months for a fix! People can be unhappy with my comment (the score is bouncing up and down like a yo-yo!), I really don't care - but having been one of quite a few website maintainers that have had to work around Apple's bugs, it's very frustrating for both the end user and the developer.

shadowfiend 11y ago
Downvoter here: I downvoted early on because you're making an argument that seems to me both not particularly good and off-topic to the post you replied to. OP posited: “Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the right direction.” You basically responded, “They're still not as good as I want them to be!” It's a point that has nothing to do with the original comment, which was about improvement, not perfection, and about how seriously they take Safari/Webkit development, not about their release process (which remains roughly the same as it has been for the past many years). Additionally, regarding the workarounds you mention: they are unnecessary in a “normal environment with rapid updates” only when those developers decide to fix your bug. Again: rapid updates are only useful if your bug is being addressed. I've got workarounds in my code for issues in Firefox that probably won't be fixed anytime soon, and features that Firefox and Chrome support poorly that they won't support well for a while, etc, etc. I'm not saying Apple couldn't be releasing bug fixes for Safari on any platform faster—they certainly could. But you made an unrelated complaint as a reply to a specific comment, and your argument seems suspect to boot.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  I don't care how much I've been downvoted, especially by someone who contributes their own comments so infrequently to HN, but it's funny how you only now decided to make a comment. I personally feel that Apple are still not as good as not only I want them to be, but pretty much anyone who uses or develops for iOS. But yes, you categorize my comments and opinions well - Apple are indeed not very responsive, and yes Apple need to do a hell of a lot better. As I say, the votes are bouncing up and down, so I'm not the only one who has holds this opinion. And no, it's not off-topic. As an end user, I now have to incorporate workarounds that no normal user should have to make to get around their issues - I'm literally running Charles proxy (until iOS 9.3 fixed their issue) and a rewrite rule to get around their ridiculous bug. And I had to run it for 3 months. Firefox and Chrome has an issue like this one fixed within their next cycle - in other words, in no time at all. All of which means I'm not afraid, ashamed or worried about downvotes from folks like yourself. I've not said anything offensive, sexist, racist or even all that terribly controversial. You've finally come out of the woodwork to make your comment, which I appreciate. If only you had made it sooner, eh?

ryanjshaw 11y ago

I'll take them seriously when they release something that runs on Windows.

Longhanks 11y ago
WebKit runs on Windows. It's not Apple's task to package it nicely for you. Chrome was using WebKit a long time, Blink is a WebKit fork. Both run on Windows.
- yuhong 11y ago
  I was wondering what is the current status of WebKit for Windows since the Blink fork for some time now.
  - tangue 11y ago
    I've never had the courage to build Webkit on Windows but Midori (which is webkit based) works quite well on Win 8
- ryanjshaw 11y ago
  > WebKit runs on Windows. WebKit != Safari or Chrome or anything else. Safari has quirks that you cannot experience without using Safari itself, which you still cannot run without a Mac. When you've wasted hours trying to track down one of these issues and realise it's a Safari quirk you'll understand my annoyance. > It's not Apple's task to package it nicely for you. I'm not sure where you get this idea from given that it contradicts the article: "Safari Technology Preview is a standalone application that can be used side-by-side with Safari or other web browsers... It’s a great way to test upcoming WebKit features and give feedback to the people building them when it’s most useful." I'm pointing out my opinion that they cannot meaningfully achieve that result without a Windows implementation.
  - abiox 11y ago
    what constitutes "meaningfully achieve that result"?

crabasa 11y ago

Safari IS the new IE. Proof? IE executed a "developer preview" strategy leading up to IE9 6 years ago. I should know, I was a PM on that team. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ie9-preview-6-available-now-with-sekrit-beta-ui/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/10/ie9-pr... This entire episode is just a rinse and repeat of what MSFT did years ago in response to negative developer sentiment.

coldtea 11y ago
>IE executed a "developer preview" strategy leading up to IE9 6 years ago. I should know, I was a PM on that team. That (Safari adopting "developer previews" now) doesn't mean much regarding whether Safari is the new IE. When people say that phrase they don't mean their both trying (or having tried) developer previews. They mean whether Safari is as backwards and holding the web back as IE6 was for ages. Which is not. IE9 was years behind Safari at the time you talk about (6 years ago) --and really first version of IE that started to really compete at all for the modern web--, while Safari was, and still is (the preview) at the top of the heap regarding ES6 compliance, etc. And while much smaller in userbase, Safari grew along with the modern web, introducing major new features that IE hasn't done since 2000 or so (Canvas, CSS animations, etc), being the basis for Chrome, and getting the JIT treatment right along the 2 other modern browsers (Chrome, FF). As for the mobile space, Safari has been lagging in some features (compared to desktop browsers), but was always ahead of the pack in lots of areas, to the point one cannot say mobile Chrome is that better. In fact, maybe the opposite: https://blog.runspired.com/2016/03/25/the-chrome-distortion-chrome-alters-our-expectations-in-highly-negative-ways/ https://blog.runspired.com/2016/03/25/the-chrome-distortion-...
- crabasa 11y ago
  > They mean whether Safari is as backwards and holding the web back as IE6 was for ages. Safari is holding back the mobile web the exact same way IE held back the desktop web for the exact same reason: native apps. > while Safari was... at the top of the heap Lol? I know very few (none?) web developers who uses Safari as their primary target browser. ES6 support or not. > cherry picked pro-Safari blog post https://joreteg.com/blog/why-i-switched-to-android https://joreteg.com/blog/why-i-switched-to-android

blackkettle 11y ago

IMHO, until they decide to provide proper HTML5 support - particularly access to the getUserMedia and general WebRTC APIs - or at least allow 3rd party vendors like Google and Mozilla to do so by themselves, this is not a believable sentiment.

om2 11y ago
Media Capture and WebRTC are in development in the public WebKit repository. These features aren't really part of HTML5 though. And while some web apps really need these features, most would not use them at all. So I'm curious why this in particular is your litmus test. I think an even wider range of web apps will benefit from our IndexedDB revamp, Shadow DOM, ES6, fast tap, font-feature-settings, picture element, CSS Variables, and other cool stuff we shipped recently or have in the works.