4 ms·

I would rather have the opposite. I would even pay for an official "Windows on Linux". There is a handful of games I would like to play, but other than that

I would rather have the opposite. I would even pay for an official "Windows on Linux". There is a handful of games I would like to play, but other than that I have no interest in windows.

xienze 11y ago
Totally doable. Use KVM to virtualize Windows and (the important part) make sure your CPU and motherboard support VT-d. Then you can pass a graphics card (separate from the one you run Linux with, naturally) to the VM and get >95% of native performance. There's lots of videos of folks doing this.
- plexicle 11y ago
  Hi. Do you mind linking one? Thanks. :)
  - xienze 11y ago
    Sure. Here's a guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hOr44oBAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hOr44oBAI Here's the famous Linus Tech Tips 7-in-1 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOaCkbt4lI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOaCkbt4lI
- wernercd 11y ago
  That's still "VM" not "Native". You aren't running them "side by side"... you are running them "One inside the other". Not exactly an apple-to-apple comparison.
  - xienze 11y ago
    The performance hit is so negligible on modern hardware that the distinction doesn't really matter.
    - geofft 11y ago
      And the performance hit is almost certainly less than the relative performance of a "native" reimplementation of a foreign OS's syscalls that doesn't benefit from the decades of engineering work that went into making that foreign OS perform well.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Except, it does matter. Not having a unified filesystem, not having a unified window manager, etc are quite some issues.
      - dllthomas 11y ago
        Those are not meaningful issues for the stated use case of playing some handful of games.
        kuschku 11y ago
        They are when you want to use the game on multiscreen setups, or if you want to backup the game’s save files manually. Source: I use my VM only for gaming, and it’s a horrible experience.
      - xienze 11y ago
        As another posted pointed out, if you just want to bring up a VM for gaming, who cares? Also, you can share directories between the native filesystem and the VM quite easily. And if you're using something like VirtualBox or VMWare there are "unity" windowing modes available.
        kuschku 11y ago
        > Also, you can share directories between the native filesystem and the VM quite easily. And if you're using something like VirtualBox or VMWare there are "unity" windowing modes available. I tried them – they don’t work at all in KDE. Arch linux host, KDE as DE, Windows 10 Guest, just leads to a big black box in unified mode, and windows don’t properly occur in the KDE taskbar. What I expect is integration equal to WINE – automatically putting stored data into the correct folders, easily accessible and mounted, integrating windows with the taskbar, etc. And yes, this is "just for games" – but try gaming on a multiscreen setup when the game doesn’t show up in your taskbar and you can’t minimize it.
  - akiselev 11y ago
    That's a distinction without a difference if you're using a modern processor with special virtualization silicon like Intel VT-i/x/d or AMD-V. With these features, IO and memory management is completely isolated between different virtual machines at the hardware level so there is almost zero overhead. With VT-d, which allows you to dedicate DMA channels to a guest VM, you can completely bypass the the host for all types of hardware including PCI/e, USB, etc.
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    The "Native" OS is also under the hypervisor. So effectively you have real CPU, real RAM, real GPU, and you can give it a real hard drive too. At that point does it really matter that the USB controller and network card are virtualized?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- khedoros 11y ago
  I've heard that this works wonderfully for graphics, but the sound emulation is pretty terrible. At least, I've heard about clicks and pops when the game puts much load on the system. This was on a friend's machine; maybe he had it configured badly.
  - xienze 11y ago
    Well if you're giving some hypervisor-managed sound interface to the VM then I wouldn't be surprised to hear that. The answer is to get a cheap dedicated soundcard and pass it through to the VM, just like you would with the graphics card.
  - SXX 11y ago
    First of all there is option to emulate different sound cards and I have no issues with Intel HDA other than microphone delay. And you can also buy $5 USB sound card and have no issues at all. Or spend few bucks more and connect PCI sound card.
wernercd 11y ago
The problem is that the user-base for Windows on Linux probably isn't worth Microsoft's time... While it seems like it is worth Microsoft's time to keep people on Windows. I for one look forward to having all my vulnerabilities in one place... Linux, windows, server, desktop...
zymhan 11y ago
I cannot possibly imagine a world where Microsoft cannibalizes their Windows Server sales by creating a Windows Emulation Layer for Linux. Crossover is probably the best you'll get: https://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover-linux https://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover-linux Otherwise, if you only need Windows to game, I'd highly suggested PCI Passthrough so that you can use your GPU in a Windows VM: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...
- dec0dedab0de 11y ago
  I cannot possibly imagine a world where Microsoft cannibalizes their Windows Server sales by creating a Windows Emulation Layer for Linux. Are there any Windows only server applications that would be useful in a non windows shop? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really can't think of any. I would expect the most likely users to convert would be those using job specific desktop software.
TallGuyShort 11y ago
I also would've expected more demand for the opposite. I don't see myself ever switching back to Windows, but I'd pay $$$ to have Microsoft Project fully supported on Linux. I have more than a few colleagues who would be interested in the rest of the Office suite too, but who make do with LibreOffice because other things on Linux are more important.

I would rather have the opposite. I would even pay for an official "Windows on Linux". There is a handful of games I would like to play, but other than that I have no interest in windows.

xienze 11y ago

Totally doable. Use KVM to virtualize Windows and (the important part) make sure your CPU and motherboard support VT-d. Then you can pass a graphics card (separate from the one you run Linux with, naturally) to the VM and get >95% of native performance. There's lots of videos of folks doing this.

plexicle 11y ago
Hi. Do you mind linking one? Thanks. :)
- xienze 11y ago
  Sure. Here's a guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hOr44oBAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hOr44oBAI Here's the famous Linus Tech Tips 7-in-1 video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOaCkbt4lI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOaCkbt4lI
wernercd 11y ago
That's still "VM" not "Native". You aren't running them "side by side"... you are running them "One inside the other". Not exactly an apple-to-apple comparison.
- xienze 11y ago
  The performance hit is so negligible on modern hardware that the distinction doesn't really matter.
  - geofft 11y ago
    And the performance hit is almost certainly less than the relative performance of a "native" reimplementation of a foreign OS's syscalls that doesn't benefit from the decades of engineering work that went into making that foreign OS perform well.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Except, it does matter. Not having a unified filesystem, not having a unified window manager, etc are quite some issues.
    - dllthomas 11y ago
      Those are not meaningful issues for the stated use case of playing some handful of games.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        They are when you want to use the game on multiscreen setups, or if you want to backup the game’s save files manually. Source: I use my VM only for gaming, and it’s a horrible experience.
    - xienze 11y ago
      As another posted pointed out, if you just want to bring up a VM for gaming, who cares? Also, you can share directories between the native filesystem and the VM quite easily. And if you're using something like VirtualBox or VMWare there are "unity" windowing modes available.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        > Also, you can share directories between the native filesystem and the VM quite easily. And if you're using something like VirtualBox or VMWare there are "unity" windowing modes available. I tried them – they don’t work at all in KDE. Arch linux host, KDE as DE, Windows 10 Guest, just leads to a big black box in unified mode, and windows don’t properly occur in the KDE taskbar. What I expect is integration equal to WINE – automatically putting stored data into the correct folders, easily accessible and mounted, integrating windows with the taskbar, etc. And yes, this is "just for games" – but try gaming on a multiscreen setup when the game doesn’t show up in your taskbar and you can’t minimize it.
- akiselev 11y ago
  That's a distinction without a difference if you're using a modern processor with special virtualization silicon like Intel VT-i/x/d or AMD-V. With these features, IO and memory management is completely isolated between different virtual machines at the hardware level so there is almost zero overhead. With VT-d, which allows you to dedicate DMA channels to a guest VM, you can completely bypass the the host for all types of hardware including PCI/e, USB, etc.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  The "Native" OS is also under the hypervisor. So effectively you have real CPU, real RAM, real GPU, and you can give it a real hard drive too. At that point does it really matter that the USB controller and network card are virtualized?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
khedoros 11y ago
I've heard that this works wonderfully for graphics, but the sound emulation is pretty terrible. At least, I've heard about clicks and pops when the game puts much load on the system. This was on a friend's machine; maybe he had it configured badly.
- xienze 11y ago
  Well if you're giving some hypervisor-managed sound interface to the VM then I wouldn't be surprised to hear that. The answer is to get a cheap dedicated soundcard and pass it through to the VM, just like you would with the graphics card.
- SXX 11y ago
  First of all there is option to emulate different sound cards and I have no issues with Intel HDA other than microphone delay. And you can also buy $5 USB sound card and have no issues at all. Or spend few bucks more and connect PCI sound card.

wernercd 11y ago

The problem is that the user-base for Windows on Linux probably isn't worth Microsoft's time... While it seems like it is worth Microsoft's time to keep people on Windows. I for one look forward to having all my vulnerabilities in one place... Linux, windows, server, desktop...

zymhan 11y ago

I cannot possibly imagine a world where Microsoft cannibalizes their Windows Server sales by creating a Windows Emulation Layer for Linux. Crossover is probably the best you'll get: https://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover-linux https://www.codeweavers.com/products/crossover-linux Otherwise, if you only need Windows to game, I'd highly suggested PCI Passthrough so that you can use your GPU in a Windows VM: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

dec0dedab0de 11y ago
I cannot possibly imagine a world where Microsoft cannibalizes their Windows Server sales by creating a Windows Emulation Layer for Linux. Are there any Windows only server applications that would be useful in a non windows shop? I'm not trying to be snarky, I really can't think of any. I would expect the most likely users to convert would be those using job specific desktop software.

TallGuyShort 11y ago

I also would've expected more demand for the opposite. I don't see myself ever switching back to Windows, but I'd pay $$$ to have Microsoft Project fully supported on Linux. I have more than a few colleagues who would be interested in the rest of the Office suite too, but who make do with LibreOffice because other things on Linux are more important.