8 ms·

A focus on elite schools ignores the issues most college students face

96 points by kelukelugames 11y ago

ryandrake 11y ago
Wow, today I learned that there are colleges that accept >50% of their applicants. I guess I just kind of assumed that most colleges and universities were bloodbaths of competition, requiring the whole array of essays, interviews and letters of recommendation. Interesting article.
- michaelbuckbee 11y ago
  There are a number of state colleges that have open admissions (basically any state resident who can pay will be accepted as a freshman).
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    Mine was until a few years after I graduated.
- therobot24 11y ago
  an undergrad rep came to my high school and at one point said, 'if you have a 3.0 you can probably leave the essay portion blank and still get in here'.
- jofer 11y ago
  I can't imagine that most state universities accept less than 50% of their applicatants. For example, my undergrad has an acceptance rate of ~95%, but it's still a regionally very well-respected school. State schools, particularly the "non-flagship" state schools have a _very_ clear mission of educating the local populace. A low acceptance rate is in direct opposition to that. All that having been said, with a high acceptance rate comes "weed out classes". People who went to high schools that didn't prepare them for college will struggle _much_ more than people from suburban/wealthy areas. A high acceptance rate usually implies less individual attention until you get past the intro classes.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Indeed, low acceptance rates are a failure metric. It indicates that the institution cannot meet demand and is leaving many in the community behind.
    - nostrebored 11y ago
      That's a strange way to define failure. If you think that a student cannot make it through your curriculum why drain your available resources and waste their time? Should schools have sub curricula with different rigor?
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        I assume the acceptance rate is calculated only from those who meet the requirements. Why would you apply to a school you do not qualify for? I don't doubt it ever happens, but it would not account for the very low acceptance rates at many schools.
        protomyth 11y ago
        Also, your talking about students from the state that graduated from state high schools. It would be a failure of the state educational system if they weren't qualified for college. Dealing with reality, most state colleges have a program to bootstrap students or it is heavily hinted they should attend community college for the first year or two to get their skills up.
        nostrebored 11y ago
        Most people I knew applied to at least one college they knew they were not qualified for. People I met from other high schools did not realize the difference in rigor (which most colleges keep large amounts of data on) and thus had no metric to determine which school they should go to.
- alistairSH 11y ago
  Not sure if serious? Yes, plenty of schools have non-competitive admissions. And even when applying to super-selective schools, there are always fallback choices[1]. The angst felt by applicants, as described in many articles and op-eds, is almost entirely self-inflicted. [1] The only stressful part about my own college admissions experience was not being accepted early to UVA. I had to wait until April to find out if I'd be forced to slum it at VT. The horror!
oldmanhorton 11y ago
Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools underrepresented? I don't think these two ideas are the same, because I think there is room for discussion about both. Also, the article seems to imply that discussing selective institutions on a national stage is like discussing which Ferrari to purchase at a soup kitchen, but in reality, so few students attend selective institutions because theyre selective. A significantly larger number apply and are waiting for those decision letters, even if they recognize that it will almost certainly be a rejection. In the grand scheme of things this point doesn't really matter, but it was something I noticed. *Disclosure: I attend a large, public research university
- whateveridunno 11y ago
  >"Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools underrepresented?" Those aren't the same ideas, but they're both true. >"A significantly larger number apply" True, but that number is still vanishingly small relative to the number of college applicants as a whole.
shockzzz 11y ago
Love it. fivethirtyeight++. We should totally be talking about how to improve college for the vast majority of students, not the ones who basically made it already.
- akhilcacharya 11y ago
  I'm just elated to see that 538 was able to see the own bubble that they live in and comment on it. I've had it with the Ivy talk, given I have no chance at that sort of prestige now.
graycat 11y ago
The 538 OP is saying that the mainstream media (MSM) has been over simplifying the college admission process. Yes. Ah, since when has the MSM let the truth complicate a good, simple, formula-fiction style story? Or the MSM needs to pay the bills, which with the Internet has gotten more difficult. Then, sure, to pay the bills, grab eyeballs for ad revenue. How to grab the eyeballs? Grab the readers with the sure-fire technique for getting and keeping the attention of an audience, discovered already by the ancient Greeks, that is, by formula fiction. So, the content is a take-off on formula fiction, not passing out solid, important information about reality. In particular grab the readers by the heart, the gut, or below the belt, always below the shoulders, never between the ears. Grab them one of these three ways, and their eyeballs will be sure to follow! So, in formula fiction, there is a protagonist, that is, central character, the reader is supposed to identify with. Next, the protagonist has a problem, enough to get us concerned enough to keep reading. So maybe there is a threat, maybe from some scandal. So, we're into scandal. Uh, we're into the E. Fromm human anxiety from the human realization that we are vulnerable to the hostile forces of society -- callous college admissions committees seeking $10 million donations. Then, with high irony, we have 538 writing about the scandal of the MSM writing about the scandal of the college admission process. Hmm .... If readers have not yet figured out much of how the MSM works, then before they assume that they can trust the MSM to be factual and objective sources of information and, thus, get manipulated, they need to hear a more skeptical, realistic, and appropriate description. And the MSM manipulations can also descend into propaganda: Some of the propaganda can be paid. And a media source can pass out propaganda because they can, thus, attract an audience that likes to see their view of the world, the one given in the propaganda, the same as their own -- such readers feel better seeing the agreement. So, when the media sets aside facts and objectivity, we get manipulation, readers with unnecessary anxiety, and maybe also propaganda, some of which can be dangerous. "More formula fiction, Ma!"
spyspy 11y ago
I've found this type of attitude to be a huge problem at my company that no one wants to admit. We only recruit from top tier schools because we only want top tier talent, while at the same time and with a completely straight face complaining that we can't fill positions fast enough.
- therobot24 11y ago
  are you sure the company isn't just trying to adhere to H1B visa requirements?
  - haggy 11y ago
    wut
    - dmoy 11y ago
      H1B requires a company to try to hire locally first. Though it's unclear if restricting to ivy league or w/e is a strategy there that actually works... I don't get that part.
      - marme 11y ago
        h1b requirements are a joke. companies can make any requirements they want. The easiest way to hire a foreigner on an h1b is put a language requirement in the job description that would be nearly impossible for any to have that the candidate you want to hire just so happens knows how to speak. It does not matter that the actual job does not require this skill they are allowed to put it in the job description and throw out all resumes who dont claim to meet this and then give an impossible interview to anyone who claims to meet the requirements
        FilterSweep 11y ago
        this is exactly right. I happen to know a few key persons at some of these companies who do this, and they still have the gall to complain over social media over how they can't hire enough foreigners. they complain under the guise of being "globally-minded" but most people know they would just prefer to cut costs of human labor.
acconrad 11y ago
> FiveThirtyEight is just as bad: The vast majority of our editorial staff, including me, went to elite, selective colleges. (I went to Columbia.) What an ironic article, given that most of the article doesn't stop talking about elite colleges. I thought the rule was if you wanted to tackle something like this, you just don't write about them.
- exolymph 11y ago
  538 wants readership. Changing anything is secondary.
- bencasselman 11y ago
  I think this is an important issue that's worthy of coverage. I also thought it was important to disclose that I'm not innocent/unbiased in this. FWIW, in my own higher ed writing I try to emphasize more representative schools. (I'm the author of this piece.)
dominotw 11y ago
I interviewed at airbnb in 2012 and the very first interviewer started with "your degree is not from a good school" like the very first sentence right to my face. He just seemed insulted that he has to spend time with someone lesser like me. I've never applied to any other sfo startup after that but won't be surprised if that attitude is common at other places. Complete sob story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155
- hga 11y ago
  I didn't see that discussion previously, but it sounds like a potential example of "Death by Lethal Reputation" as detailed by the Ask the Headhunter guy: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/halethalrep.htm http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/halethalrep.htm And it really sucks; while I didn't go to it for CS, I attended one of the best 4 schools in the world for that, and while interviewing as I've done in times past, would never dream of assuming a fellow alum who got a CS degree was definitely competent, nor that someone like you couldn't prove to me you were.
- Retric 11y ago
  I had someone ask that once in an interview. My response was I got into a better school, but sitting in classes I was less than impressed. This seemed to upset them, but I may have accidentally dissed their school. Honestly, I think it's mostly insecurity on their part. If you spend 3+ years going somewhere you like to think it was a good 'deal' even if you overpay for a sub par education.
  - eastWestMath 11y ago
    I'm at a Canadian school and work for a pretty well known prof (well known in my field, at least). The more I've encountered people who've always been in "elite" institutions, the less I've been impressed.
    - stuxnet79 11y ago
      Computer Science or Mathematics?
randomgyatwork 11y ago
I've been told that Harvard Law is pass/fail, so you can be a crappy student (as long as you can get in) and still get a degree. Thus, firms that focus on top-tire schools get lots of bad lawyers who went to the right schools. I sort of see top-tire schools like I see fake doctors wearing lab coats, if you want a lazy signal go for it, but it shouldn't be more than an ok and move on.
- otterley 11y ago
  It's true of Yale Law as well.
- w1ntermute 11y ago
  It's not pass/fail - there are grades (high pass, pass, low pass, etc.), and top law firms certainly take grades into account during the interview process.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    high pass, pass, low pass really make me wonder what's buried in the etc? What's left for someone that still graduates?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- LeifCarrotson 11y ago
  "tier". Also, if lazy signals work, PR if the lack of the signal causes problems, that's a real incentive for real doctors to wear the lab coats or students to attend top-tier schools. It would be nice to make decisions based only on real value and assume all participants are rational and well-informed, but actual humans use lazy signals all the time.
imh 11y ago
>“Ninety-five percent of the newsroom probably went to private institutions, they went to four-year institutions, and they went to elite institutions,” said Jeff Selingo... This right here is why. The narrative goes that if you don't go to an elite school, you won't get an elite job. (Let's not argue about how true that is, but I think we can agree it's a common narrative.) People want elite jobs, so they want to go to the elite schools. The article points out that most students don't go to selective schools, but this sounds to me like, when discussing wealth inequality, pointing out that most people aren't billionaires. When talking about selectivity and competition in trying to get good schools/jobs, the fact that most students don't make the cut is the whole point of the conversation.
stcredzero 11y ago
The population of the educated 1st world offers higher education as an invitation to, "Join us! It's great in here!" So it behooves us to make sure this pathway is genuine, not filled with traps and fraud, and doesn't exploit or drain the participants. From what I have seen, though, we are failing. When a regime fails, it's not visible from the centers of power and the shiny hallways. It's first visible in the periphery, amongst the least powerful.
- keithpeter 11y ago
  Quote from OP "Barely half of first-time, full-time bachelor’s degree students graduate within six years; for part-time or community college students, that share is even lower." Observation from UK: that just would not fly here. Including mature/part time students.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    I have a vague memory of being told by someone that the US system is slightly different, because it includes a year or two of what we'd consider A Level content in the UK. So you get more people panicking in the first year or two when they find they can't hack the basics. Or they just don't care, because daddy's trust fund awaits. Tangentially, the subject with the worst drop out rate in the UK is CS, at around 11%. It's also the subject with the worst employment prospects. That could be because it's hard, but it could also be because the pay here can be terrible compared to the US.
    - keithpeter 11y ago
      Or possibly because the jobs are going to eastern Europe/India. Some very clever and effective people out there and, you know, the Internet. But seriously, 50% drop out? We should export OFSTED. That'll sort them (I work as a teacher).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

96 points by kelukelugames 11y ago

Wow, today I learned that there are colleges that accept >50% of their applicants. I guess I just kind of assumed that most colleges and universities were bloodbaths of competition, requiring the whole array of essays, interviews and letters of recommendation. Interesting article.

michaelbuckbee 11y ago
There are a number of state colleges that have open admissions (basically any state resident who can pay will be accepted as a freshman).
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  Mine was until a few years after I graduated.
therobot24 11y ago
an undergrad rep came to my high school and at one point said, 'if you have a 3.0 you can probably leave the essay portion blank and still get in here'.
jofer 11y ago
I can't imagine that most state universities accept less than 50% of their applicatants. For example, my undergrad has an acceptance rate of ~95%, but it's still a regionally very well-respected school. State schools, particularly the "non-flagship" state schools have a _very_ clear mission of educating the local populace. A low acceptance rate is in direct opposition to that. All that having been said, with a high acceptance rate comes "weed out classes". People who went to high schools that didn't prepare them for college will struggle _much_ more than people from suburban/wealthy areas. A high acceptance rate usually implies less individual attention until you get past the intro classes.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Indeed, low acceptance rates are a failure metric. It indicates that the institution cannot meet demand and is leaving many in the community behind.
  - nostrebored 11y ago
    That's a strange way to define failure. If you think that a student cannot make it through your curriculum why drain your available resources and waste their time? Should schools have sub curricula with different rigor?
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      I assume the acceptance rate is calculated only from those who meet the requirements. Why would you apply to a school you do not qualify for? I don't doubt it ever happens, but it would not account for the very low acceptance rates at many schools.
      - protomyth 11y ago
        Also, your talking about students from the state that graduated from state high schools. It would be a failure of the state educational system if they weren't qualified for college. Dealing with reality, most state colleges have a program to bootstrap students or it is heavily hinted they should attend community college for the first year or two to get their skills up.
      - nostrebored 11y ago
        Most people I knew applied to at least one college they knew they were not qualified for. People I met from other high schools did not realize the difference in rigor (which most colleges keep large amounts of data on) and thus had no metric to determine which school they should go to.
alistairSH 11y ago
Not sure if serious? Yes, plenty of schools have non-competitive admissions. And even when applying to super-selective schools, there are always fallback choices[1]. The angst felt by applicants, as described in many articles and op-eds, is almost entirely self-inflicted. [1] The only stressful part about my own college admissions experience was not being accepted early to UVA. I had to wait until April to find out if I'd be forced to slum it at VT. The horror!

oldmanhorton 11y ago

Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools underrepresented? I don't think these two ideas are the same, because I think there is room for discussion about both. Also, the article seems to imply that discussing selective institutions on a national stage is like discussing which Ferrari to purchase at a soup kitchen, but in reality, so few students attend selective institutions because theyre selective. A significantly larger number apply and are waiting for those decision letters, even if they recognize that it will almost certainly be a rejection. In the grand scheme of things this point doesn't really matter, but it was something I noticed. *Disclosure: I attend a large, public research university

whateveridunno 11y ago
>"Are selective schools overrepresented, or are nonselective schools underrepresented?" Those aren't the same ideas, but they're both true. >"A significantly larger number apply" True, but that number is still vanishingly small relative to the number of college applicants as a whole.

shockzzz 11y ago

Love it. fivethirtyeight++. We should totally be talking about how to improve college for the vast majority of students, not the ones who basically made it already.

akhilcacharya 11y ago
I'm just elated to see that 538 was able to see the own bubble that they live in and comment on it. I've had it with the Ivy talk, given I have no chance at that sort of prestige now.

graycat 11y ago

The 538 OP is saying that the mainstream media (MSM) has been over simplifying the college admission process. Yes. Ah, since when has the MSM let the truth complicate a good, simple, formula-fiction style story? Or the MSM needs to pay the bills, which with the Internet has gotten more difficult. Then, sure, to pay the bills, grab eyeballs for ad revenue. How to grab the eyeballs? Grab the readers with the sure-fire technique for getting and keeping the attention of an audience, discovered already by the ancient Greeks, that is, by formula fiction. So, the content is a take-off on formula fiction, not passing out solid, important information about reality. In particular grab the readers by the heart, the gut, or below the belt, always below the shoulders, never between the ears. Grab them one of these three ways, and their eyeballs will be sure to follow! So, in formula fiction, there is a protagonist, that is, central character, the reader is supposed to identify with. Next, the protagonist has a problem, enough to get us concerned enough to keep reading. So maybe there is a threat, maybe from some scandal. So, we're into scandal. Uh, we're into the E. Fromm human anxiety from the human realization that we are vulnerable to the hostile forces of society -- callous college admissions committees seeking $10 million donations. Then, with high irony, we have 538 writing about the scandal of the MSM writing about the scandal of the college admission process. Hmm .... If readers have not yet figured out much of how the MSM works, then before they assume that they can trust the MSM to be factual and objective sources of information and, thus, get manipulated, they need to hear a more skeptical, realistic, and appropriate description. And the MSM manipulations can also descend into propaganda: Some of the propaganda can be paid. And a media source can pass out propaganda because they can, thus, attract an audience that likes to see their view of the world, the one given in the propaganda, the same as their own -- such readers feel better seeing the agreement. So, when the media sets aside facts and objectivity, we get manipulation, readers with unnecessary anxiety, and maybe also propaganda, some of which can be dangerous. "More formula fiction, Ma!"

spyspy 11y ago

I've found this type of attitude to be a huge problem at my company that no one wants to admit. We only recruit from top tier schools because we only want top tier talent, while at the same time and with a completely straight face complaining that we can't fill positions fast enough.

therobot24 11y ago
are you sure the company isn't just trying to adhere to H1B visa requirements?
- haggy 11y ago
  wut
  - dmoy 11y ago
    H1B requires a company to try to hire locally first. Though it's unclear if restricting to ivy league or w/e is a strategy there that actually works... I don't get that part.
    - marme 11y ago
      h1b requirements are a joke. companies can make any requirements they want. The easiest way to hire a foreigner on an h1b is put a language requirement in the job description that would be nearly impossible for any to have that the candidate you want to hire just so happens knows how to speak. It does not matter that the actual job does not require this skill they are allowed to put it in the job description and throw out all resumes who dont claim to meet this and then give an impossible interview to anyone who claims to meet the requirements
      - FilterSweep 11y ago
        this is exactly right. I happen to know a few key persons at some of these companies who do this, and they still have the gall to complain over social media over how they can't hire enough foreigners. they complain under the guise of being "globally-minded" but most people know they would just prefer to cut costs of human labor.

acconrad 11y ago

> FiveThirtyEight is just as bad: The vast majority of our editorial staff, including me, went to elite, selective colleges. (I went to Columbia.) What an ironic article, given that most of the article doesn't stop talking about elite colleges. I thought the rule was if you wanted to tackle something like this, you just don't write about them.

exolymph 11y ago
538 wants readership. Changing anything is secondary.
bencasselman 11y ago
I think this is an important issue that's worthy of coverage. I also thought it was important to disclose that I'm not innocent/unbiased in this. FWIW, in my own higher ed writing I try to emphasize more representative schools. (I'm the author of this piece.)

dominotw 11y ago

I interviewed at airbnb in 2012 and the very first interviewer started with "your degree is not from a good school" like the very first sentence right to my face. He just seemed insulted that he has to spend time with someone lesser like me. I've never applied to any other sfo startup after that but won't be surprised if that attitude is common at other places. Complete sob story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11291155

hga 11y ago
I didn't see that discussion previously, but it sounds like a potential example of "Death by Lethal Reputation" as detailed by the Ask the Headhunter guy: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/halethalrep.htm http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/halethalrep.htm And it really sucks; while I didn't go to it for CS, I attended one of the best 4 schools in the world for that, and while interviewing as I've done in times past, would never dream of assuming a fellow alum who got a CS degree was definitely competent, nor that someone like you couldn't prove to me you were.
Retric 11y ago
I had someone ask that once in an interview. My response was I got into a better school, but sitting in classes I was less than impressed. This seemed to upset them, but I may have accidentally dissed their school. Honestly, I think it's mostly insecurity on their part. If you spend 3+ years going somewhere you like to think it was a good 'deal' even if you overpay for a sub par education.
- eastWestMath 11y ago
  I'm at a Canadian school and work for a pretty well known prof (well known in my field, at least). The more I've encountered people who've always been in "elite" institutions, the less I've been impressed.
  - stuxnet79 11y ago
    Computer Science or Mathematics?

randomgyatwork 11y ago

I've been told that Harvard Law is pass/fail, so you can be a crappy student (as long as you can get in) and still get a degree. Thus, firms that focus on top-tire schools get lots of bad lawyers who went to the right schools. I sort of see top-tire schools like I see fake doctors wearing lab coats, if you want a lazy signal go for it, but it shouldn't be more than an ok and move on.

otterley 11y ago
It's true of Yale Law as well.
w1ntermute 11y ago
It's not pass/fail - there are grades (high pass, pass, low pass, etc.), and top law firms certainly take grades into account during the interview process.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  high pass, pass, low pass really make me wonder what's buried in the etc? What's left for someone that still graduates?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
LeifCarrotson 11y ago
"tier". Also, if lazy signals work, PR if the lack of the signal causes problems, that's a real incentive for real doctors to wear the lab coats or students to attend top-tier schools. It would be nice to make decisions based only on real value and assume all participants are rational and well-informed, but actual humans use lazy signals all the time.

imh 11y ago

>“Ninety-five percent of the newsroom probably went to private institutions, they went to four-year institutions, and they went to elite institutions,” said Jeff Selingo... This right here is why. The narrative goes that if you don't go to an elite school, you won't get an elite job. (Let's not argue about how true that is, but I think we can agree it's a common narrative.) People want elite jobs, so they want to go to the elite schools. The article points out that most students don't go to selective schools, but this sounds to me like, when discussing wealth inequality, pointing out that most people aren't billionaires. When talking about selectivity and competition in trying to get good schools/jobs, the fact that most students don't make the cut is the whole point of the conversation.

stcredzero 11y ago

The population of the educated 1st world offers higher education as an invitation to, "Join us! It's great in here!" So it behooves us to make sure this pathway is genuine, not filled with traps and fraud, and doesn't exploit or drain the participants. From what I have seen, though, we are failing. When a regime fails, it's not visible from the centers of power and the shiny hallways. It's first visible in the periphery, amongst the least powerful.

keithpeter 11y ago
Quote from OP "Barely half of first-time, full-time bachelor’s degree students graduate within six years; for part-time or community college students, that share is even lower." Observation from UK: that just would not fly here. Including mature/part time students.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  I have a vague memory of being told by someone that the US system is slightly different, because it includes a year or two of what we'd consider A Level content in the UK. So you get more people panicking in the first year or two when they find they can't hack the basics. Or they just don't care, because daddy's trust fund awaits. Tangentially, the subject with the worst drop out rate in the UK is CS, at around 11%. It's also the subject with the worst employment prospects. That could be because it's hard, but it could also be because the pay here can be terrible compared to the US.
  - keithpeter 11y ago
    Or possibly because the jobs are going to eastern Europe/India. Some very clever and effective people out there and, you know, the Internet. But seriously, 50% drop out? We should export OFSTED. That'll sort them (I work as a teacher).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]