14 ms·

In Syria, militias armed by the Pentagon fight those armed by the CIA

302 points by dismal2 11y ago

emblem21 11y ago
> “It is an enormous challenge,” said Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Burbank), the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, who described the clashes between U.S.-supported groups as “a fairly new phenomenon.” > “It is part of the three-dimensional chess that is the Syrian battlefield,” he said. Corrupt congressmen explaining the supreme unaccountability associated with this type of unofficial warfare as something too complex and mysterious for the average observer to comprehend should be classified as a radicalizer by the FBI.
- rdtsc 11y ago
  Yeah that is a fairly standard PR technique. "We are dealing with something very new and very complex".
- jessaustin 11y ago
  The only response by FBI will be angling to get their own team in the new Inter-Agency Syrian Proxy League. They're really pissed now; it's not fair that they never get the memo when fun evil shit like this is getting set up. Now CIA will have already bagged all the cool clubhouse locations, and FBI will be stuck with some lame faction like the Yazidis. Seriously, though, be on the lookout for news of FBI missions to "investigate Syrian sources of domestic terror".
davnn 11y ago
When you trust George Friedman, and he should know better, then funding of both sides actually is a strategy not a mistake. People often think that there is moral involved in those decisions, but there isn't, not at all.
- grandalf 11y ago
  True. The desired outcome is to create massive instability there, massive loss of life, and to deal a crippling blow to a region that the US wishes to dominate from afar.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    What would be the reason for such domination ? Is America really imperialist at its core ? do they wish for resource independence (again) by disrupting this region ? The Syrian war has ripples up to Europe core now. I'd be surprised if minds would keep on pushing a direction that could create a worldwide chaos.
    - hammock 11y ago
      http://www.oil-price.net/cartoons/iran-iraq-syria-pipeline.jpg http://www.oil-price.net/cartoons/iran-iraq-syria-pipeline.j...
      - agumonkey 11y ago
        Very "generous" of you. I know oil flows from there. I mean that's an old song that didn't work before. And people are also vocally trying to get away from oil based energy as much as possible (be it solar, wind, waves). Causing a proto WWIII for this ? .. Tell me more if you have data.
        hammock 11y ago
        Trying but not succeeding. http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/global/images/us__en_us__oil__oil_gas_info2__364x350.gif http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/global/images/us__en_us__oi... The US economy hinges on sustaining the petrodollar system. http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system/ http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrod...
        JumpCrisscross 11y ago
- binarray2000 11y ago
  I assume, you are reffering to this: https://youtu.be/QeLu_yyz3tc https://youtu.be/QeLu_yyz3tc Chilling insight into foreign policy of a superpower (an euphemism for "empire"). Not that he says something new (if you've read Carroll Quigley), but still... it's a fresh proof from the founder of the "Shadow CIA".
  - davnn 11y ago
    True, it's the most explicit reference I know of.
  - selimthegrim 11y ago
    Friedman is a tool, and the email dumps exposed that. Better to read Kennan if you want insight into American imperialism.
    - davnn 11y ago
      Would you recommend a specific book?
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        His letters and telegrams on Korea from the 1950s as well as his late in life writings. I'm not sure if there's a book.
    - binarray2000 11y ago
      Well, he is a tool. But, I think that those e-mails are just a "limited hangout": They are exposing just so much to let us think that there is not much to see anyway. Stratfor does "consulting" as well and those e-mail conversations are not exposed. EDIT: It seem that, at least some, of the e-mails of the "consulting" branch are exposed.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > (an euphemism for "empire") Lawrence Wilkerson, "The Travails of Empire" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc
- 13of40 11y ago
  Imagine what our reaction would be if two parts of the Russian government had provided weapons to different groups, who immediately turned around and fought each other. Would we be calling them (the Russians) bumbling incompetents or talking about how it was part of their sly plan all along?
brooklyndude 11y ago
The word now is you can spend for sponsorship. Both CIA and Pentagon rebels. For $100 you get a shoulder patch, for $25 they'll put a logo on a boot. For $50 you get your internet startup company name on a hat. Heard ad space is going quick. America, are we the greatest or what. USA rocks. :-)
fiatmoney 11y ago
This makes some amount of sense under a model of the US government as a collection of usually-feuding groups that have different constituencies and control different levers of power, often exporting their internal conflicts overseas. http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/secret-of-anti-americanism.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/secret-... (The phrases to look at are "red empire" and "blue empire").
- nyolfen 11y ago
  if you think that predisposed ideologies are conflicting cia and state department sponsorships categories, i have a militia in syria to sell you
lsb 11y ago
This war is a tragedy and an outrage, and its devastation of our World Heritage should make us all ashamed. While politics is often seen as off-topic, this has applicable lessons to those of us building distributed systems. 1. Any large enough system will eventually generate exceedingly surprising side-effects. 2. Hot-patching routing of resources in response to run-time surprises (backpressure, etc) is essential for correction of error. 3. Monitoring of resource allocation can help raise awareness and prevent problems before they get big enough to be a national newspaper headline. Very few of us will work on systems that impact human life (manned space travel, driverless cars, etc) and it is a privilege to not have a day job building systems that have lethal failure modes.
- smaili 11y ago
  Speaking of distributed systems, are there any good articles that go over some of the common problems that normally occur as your infrastructure grows?
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > politics is often seen as off-topic That attitude is a huge problem. Everything is political, because politics is simply the way we solve problems, negotiate details, and make decisions in a society. > lethal failure modes Non-lethal failure modes can still be just as much of a problem, and small problems are still problems. > Very few of us will work on systems that impact human life Everybody that makes a product is impacting human life. You may not be making something with immediately obvious lethal failure modes, but it still has an impact. At ever step in the building process decisions are made that affect people. Many of these are probably small and inconsequential, but prediction is hard and sometimes supposedly-trivial things have large, widespread effects. Hiding from politics and claiming that something is "apolitical" cedes the decisions to others, and technology is rapidly magnifying the impact even trivial things can have. So please, consider the surrounding politics before working on something, and at least try to consider the greater context of how people will be affected - both good and bad ways - by the work you do. Why? Because there is "no neutral ground, in a burning world"[1]. -- [1] Which is the title of Eleanor Saitta and Quinn Norton's 30C3 talk[2], which explains these ideas better than I can. [2] https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272300_-_no_neutral_ground_in_a_burning_world_-_quinn_norton_-_eleanor_saitta https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272... http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burning-world/ http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burn...
retrogradeorbit 11y ago
It's a very old strategy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule
yaacov 11y ago
This isn't quite true. The Pentagon's only supporting SDF fighters from the cantons of Jazera and Kobane. These guys were from Afrin, which is separated from the other two cantons by a pretty big strip of IS-controlled territory. http://warontherocks.com/2016/03/are-cia-backed-syrian-rebels-really-fighting-pentagon-backed-syrian-rebels/ http://warontherocks.com/2016/03/are-cia-backed-syrian-rebel...
DannoHung 11y ago
Well, you gotta grow the next generation of terrorists, don't you?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
chvid 11y ago
Syria really examplifies the terrible incoherent state of Western (American, secondly EU) foreign policy. There is really a need for change; unfortunately it is a bit hard to see where that will be coming from at the moment.
- AlwaysBCoding 11y ago
  For better or worse a Trump presidency would almost certainly be a fundamental rewrite of the way the U.S. government functions in the world.
  - chvid 11y ago
    Yes. That may be true. However; I do (still) find it unlikely that Trump will be the next president. And I am also not quite sure what his foreign policies will be. Another big change may come from Britain's exit from the EU (also something I find unlikely). This will be the end of EU as it is today. And will probably lead to a more protectionist and less interventionalist foreign policy regime across the board.
    - atmosx 11y ago
      > This will be the end of EU as it is today. Amen.
      - JupiterMoon 11y ago
        The EU needs reform. However, historically Europe engaged in very nasty wars every few years. A fractured isolationist non-corporative set of European states could be very bad for all of us.
        atmosx 11y ago
        I am not sure if you realize the role of Euro in the rise of extremism in the EU. The fact that the EU is ruled by political midgets played a najor role too.
0xFFC 11y ago
I am from middle east and I am atheist (because so many people will accuse me of being Muslim).I want to touch on topic which is a little bit off topic. But for people who wants to see big picture it is essential. I can only say one thing to your politician's : Get the fuck out of middle East. There is one way to change middle East and it is to change culture by improving your own society. When I read news about USA domestic issuse my mind blows up, how these fuckers (politicians) can bring us democracy?when they don't even care about their own people. Looks what's going on in Flint Michigan. At the otherhand when people go and see what is going on in countries like Norway/Finland(which didn't invade any country in middle East in recent years.didn't intervene and overthrow government in middle East) then they really start to think there is something wrong about us culturally (middle East) and we should start to change , and bring to ourselves what these country's have already, like democracy, freedom of speech.(this is when real change start to happen, not when some moron like bush spend billions and billions without achieving single goal and for just making enemy's) At the other hand by USA presense in middle East they (usa)are basically undermine our (liberal people in middle East) argument for common people in middle East.Believe it or not hardliners will say we are traitor and West's puppets, and believe me people believe it when West's does actually occupy or intervene in their country politics. I can't understand, what is hard to get? Get the fuck out of middle East. Overthrowing Mossadegh(democratically elected). Backing Saudi Arabia (one of the worst human rights record, maybe a little bit better than ISIS itself) for many years. Backing Egyptian dictator (mobarak) for many years. Backing Saddam against Iran , while Saddam did use chemical weapon. Backing mujahedeen (basically Tliban) against Soviet Union. And list goes on. You cannot keep snake in your backyard and expect them to only bite your neighbor. honestly asking ? What the fuck do you want from us?
- chvid 11y ago
  What are the particular problems in Norway, Finland and Flint, Michigan you are referring to?
  - JeffreyKaine 11y ago
    Parent was praising Norway and Finland for their focus on leveling up their culture and economy. No problems there. As for Flint, Michigan... A quick google will give you a lot of info, but the gist of it is that they have had lead in their water for over two years and it's beyond toxic. Their government has failed them.
partycoder 11y ago
They just want perpetual conflict. Because perpetual conflict means perpetual war, and perpetual war means cash supply for the military industrial complex.
- RobertoG 11y ago
  I have problems believing that narrative. I think that it's too simplistic to forget strategic goals. For instance, perpetual conflict also means that no strong power can appear in the area.
  - partycoder 11y ago
    Before WW1, that was the Ottoman empire. The arab provinces of the empire were unhappy, and contacted the entente. The agreed to revolt against the turks in exchange for control over all that area. The arabs fought against the turks, with the help of the entente, however as soon as the war ended, the entente revealed their actual plan: the sykes-picot agreement. Basically they got backstabbed. In this agreement they would divide the area, give it new names, put it under foreign control. Since then the area is a constant mess. By design. Then every other year they finance some rebel group or army here and there so there's never peace.
- 0xFFC 11y ago
  Sad thing is this military industrial complex does control media establishment today.so most of the people don't have any clue whats going on in the world and think about USA as savior of humanity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8va9vLap2JI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8va9vLap2JI Makes me crazy.do people actually watch fox? Apparently they do. And here we are.
known 11y ago
"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the USA. They don't care." --Nelson Mandela http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nelson-mandela-iraq-israel_b_4396638.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nelson-mandela-i...
- supremeanger 11y ago
  Thats rich coming from Mandela, a terrorist
  - known 11y ago
    A terrorist is a freedom fighter who is not on your side;
cm2187 11y ago
I wonder how much of the mess in the middle east is cause by the erratic western diplomacy and how much would have happened anyway. Clearly the US invasion of Iraq, and the chaos that followed has been a catalyst for islamism in the region. The US+European backed revolution in Libya, Syria and Egypt only added to the chaos. It is tempting to think that had we just stayed away from all that, the region would be under the control of ruthless dictators but at least would be in peace, and islamists would be in jail. When we think that half of the population of Syria are now refugees, of which half had to emigrate, is overthrowing Al Assad really worth that, and is overthrowing Al Assad worth creating ISIS? I must say that for how much I dislike Putin, he has a point when he tells Western diplomacy: look at the mess in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and now you are telling me you want to invade another country in the middle east? On the other side when we look at most of these conflicts, they are really ethnic conflicts. Sunnis vs Shia vs Kurds vs Alawites vs etc... Both Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi were old and were bound to die in the next 10-20 years (as of 2002). And the rise of Islamism is a global phenomenon that spans from Indonesia to Morocco, through Turkey or Pakistan, from the muslim suburbs of Paris and Brussels to the desert in Mali. Perhaps all of this would have happened anyway. Like it is foreseeable that when Saudi Arabia will run out of oil money, it will descent in a state of complete chaos. I think of Islamism as a kind of a repeat of communism, it's an ideology which time has come, which will find a broad adhesion in the muslim world, and will likely disappear the same way communism did, through its own disastrous results when in power and inability to compete with the West, both economically and in term of values. The most anti-communist populations are the populations that have been ruled by communism (Eastern Europe). As for ethnic conflicts, there are no good solutions. If two populations hate each others, grand speeches at the UN headquarters in NYC will not change anything. I'd be incline to think we should stay away from ethnic conflicts. We should keep in mind that whoever we decide to back in Syria, once that side wins, they will start a terrible ethnic cleansing. Do we really want to sponsor that?
- DavidHm 11y ago
  It's been a while since a stray comment on the internet has made me reconsider so many things that I was previously convinced of. Thanks for this.
- 11y ago
pknerd 11y ago
Not something new. US backed Iraq in past, supplied emos, later fought against it. US aided Mujahideen of Afghanistan in past later become Talibans. US aided Pakistan Army and Afghan government to fight against them. Since it's Hackernews, the best analogy would be funding by VCs to different startups to compete with each other. Here CIA and Pentagon are VCs providing Emos to "Startups" to test their weapons for other wars.
ingsoc79 11y ago
Can't help but be reminded of this scene in Woody Allen's Bananas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-NL3R8wm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-NL3R8wm0
andrewvijay 11y ago
Such an open evidence and yet no country accuses the US.
pknerd 11y ago
"We like war because we are good at it" - Carlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MnJqhcZvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MnJqhcZvw
teekert 11y ago
Why do the EU and US dislike Assad? He has been saying for years that the Free Syrian Army are a bunch of crazies who Barbecue heads etc. There could well be IS-ers among them. Why are we (EU/US) not working with the Russians and Assad? Remember that those chemical weapons, after a lot of accusations were fired by the rebels, not by Assad.
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Because he's been killing his own people from the very start? Why do people so easily forget how this all started? It's only been 5 years.
- acqq 11y ago
  > Why do the EU and US dislike Assad? It's a long and old (decades!) story, per US embassy cables published by WikiLeaks. The news story: http://www.activistpost.com/2015/09/julian-assange-reveals-another-2006-western-plan-to-destroy-syria.html http://www.activistpost.com/2015/09/julian-assange-reveals-a... The US ambassador 2006 leaked cable itself: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html So it's not by accident that Chelsea Manning was treated as he was for leaking these cables. And that Assange still can't leave the embassy in London.
- nl 11y ago
  Assad is a murderous butcher whose regime tortured children[1][2]. I think that's a fairly good reason to dislike him. It's easy for us in the West to sit here and say that he was better that what came later. That certainly wasn't apparent at the time, and I think that alone is enough of a reason to be wary of him. If that wasn't enough, there's his regime's history of attempting to build nuclear weapons with North Korean help as well as it's use of chemical weapons against civilians. These aren't the Iraqi-war mythical weapons of mass destruction, but real weapons that were either used (chemical) or destroyed. It's possible that the rebels used chemical weapons too, but absolutely certain that Assad's forces did[3]. Notably, the Russians (who don't often fall for Western propaganda) were the ones who forced Assad to give up his chemical weapon stockpiles after they were used. The Russians did blame the rebels for one attack, and it is likely that may be correct. That doesn't remove Assad's guilt for the other attacks. [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-photos-killed-detainees https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-pho... [2] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-17/photos-show-deaths-of-thousands-in-syrian-regime-jails/7038020 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-17/photos-show-deaths-of-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the...
INTPenis 11y ago
This article sure expects much from the intelligence community. I don't think anyone can claim to have "control" over groups so diverse and distanced from themselves.
jacobush 11y ago
Divide and conquer.
musha68k 11y ago
This reads like out of one of Hideo Kojima's computer games, war as a "business model"? "War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles fought by mercenaries and machines. War - and its consumption of life - has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefiled control. Everything is monitored and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control, all in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield, controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, war becomes routine." – Solid Snake, Metal Gear Solid 4
titzer 11y ago
The only way to always win at war is to fight on both sides.
- contingencies 11y ago
  ... or not to play. By contrast, Sun Zi's The Art of War, being more a manual of practical statesmanship and less an ethical or philosophical sounding board, states that one should only go to war when in a position of strength and certain victory. Further, actual warfare is a last option: "the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field."
cm3 11y ago
Haven't the CIA (and DEA to some extent) always been operating in J. Edgar Hoover style crooked, hypocritical, mobster mode, under the belief that laws are for everyone else but them? They seem to follow long-term agendas with zero consideration for material, human, and societal losses.
mikelyons 11y ago
Destabilize another area, and you have a constant source of "world-news" to fearmonger with in order to take away the rights and enslave the population of your own country under the guise of democratic security.

302 points by dismal2 11y ago

> “It is an enormous challenge,” said Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Burbank), the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, who described the clashes between U.S.-supported groups as “a fairly new phenomenon.” > “It is part of the three-dimensional chess that is the Syrian battlefield,” he said. Corrupt congressmen explaining the supreme unaccountability associated with this type of unofficial warfare as something too complex and mysterious for the average observer to comprehend should be classified as a radicalizer by the FBI.

rdtsc 11y ago
Yeah that is a fairly standard PR technique. "We are dealing with something very new and very complex".
jessaustin 11y ago
The only response by FBI will be angling to get their own team in the new Inter-Agency Syrian Proxy League. They're really pissed now; it's not fair that they never get the memo when fun evil shit like this is getting set up. Now CIA will have already bagged all the cool clubhouse locations, and FBI will be stuck with some lame faction like the Yazidis. Seriously, though, be on the lookout for news of FBI missions to "investigate Syrian sources of domestic terror".

davnn 11y ago

When you trust George Friedman, and he should know better, then funding of both sides actually is a strategy not a mistake. People often think that there is moral involved in those decisions, but there isn't, not at all.

grandalf 11y ago
True. The desired outcome is to create massive instability there, massive loss of life, and to deal a crippling blow to a region that the US wishes to dominate from afar.
- agumonkey 11y ago
  What would be the reason for such domination ? Is America really imperialist at its core ? do they wish for resource independence (again) by disrupting this region ? The Syrian war has ripples up to Europe core now. I'd be surprised if minds would keep on pushing a direction that could create a worldwide chaos.
  - hammock 11y ago
    http://www.oil-price.net/cartoons/iran-iraq-syria-pipeline.jpg http://www.oil-price.net/cartoons/iran-iraq-syria-pipeline.j...
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      Very "generous" of you. I know oil flows from there. I mean that's an old song that didn't work before. And people are also vocally trying to get away from oil based energy as much as possible (be it solar, wind, waves). Causing a proto WWIII for this ? .. Tell me more if you have data.
      - hammock 11y ago
        Trying but not succeeding. http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/global/images/us__en_us__oil__oil_gas_info2__364x350.gif http://www.ibm.com/smarterplanet/global/images/us__en_us__oi... The US economy hinges on sustaining the petrodollar system. http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system/ http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrod...
        JumpCrisscross 11y ago
binarray2000 11y ago
I assume, you are reffering to this: https://youtu.be/QeLu_yyz3tc https://youtu.be/QeLu_yyz3tc Chilling insight into foreign policy of a superpower (an euphemism for "empire"). Not that he says something new (if you've read Carroll Quigley), but still... it's a fresh proof from the founder of the "Shadow CIA".
- davnn 11y ago
  True, it's the most explicit reference I know of.
- selimthegrim 11y ago
  Friedman is a tool, and the email dumps exposed that. Better to read Kennan if you want insight into American imperialism.
  - davnn 11y ago
    Would you recommend a specific book?
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      His letters and telegrams on Korea from the 1950s as well as his late in life writings. I'm not sure if there's a book.
  - binarray2000 11y ago
    Well, he is a tool. But, I think that those e-mails are just a "limited hangout": They are exposing just so much to let us think that there is not much to see anyway. Stratfor does "consulting" as well and those e-mail conversations are not exposed. EDIT: It seem that, at least some, of the e-mails of the "consulting" branch are exposed.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > (an euphemism for "empire") Lawrence Wilkerson, "The Travails of Empire" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckjY-FW7-dc
13of40 11y ago
Imagine what our reaction would be if two parts of the Russian government had provided weapons to different groups, who immediately turned around and fought each other. Would we be calling them (the Russians) bumbling incompetents or talking about how it was part of their sly plan all along?

brooklyndude 11y ago

The word now is you can spend for sponsorship. Both CIA and Pentagon rebels. For $100 you get a shoulder patch, for $25 they'll put a logo on a boot. For $50 you get your internet startup company name on a hat. Heard ad space is going quick. America, are we the greatest or what. USA rocks. :-)

fiatmoney 11y ago

This makes some amount of sense under a model of the US government as a collection of usually-feuding groups that have different constituencies and control different levers of power, often exporting their internal conflicts overseas. http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/secret-of-anti-americanism.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/secret-... (The phrases to look at are "red empire" and "blue empire").

nyolfen 11y ago
if you think that predisposed ideologies are conflicting cia and state department sponsorships categories, i have a militia in syria to sell you

lsb 11y ago

This war is a tragedy and an outrage, and its devastation of our World Heritage should make us all ashamed. While politics is often seen as off-topic, this has applicable lessons to those of us building distributed systems. 1. Any large enough system will eventually generate exceedingly surprising side-effects. 2. Hot-patching routing of resources in response to run-time surprises (backpressure, etc) is essential for correction of error. 3. Monitoring of resource allocation can help raise awareness and prevent problems before they get big enough to be a national newspaper headline. Very few of us will work on systems that impact human life (manned space travel, driverless cars, etc) and it is a privilege to not have a day job building systems that have lethal failure modes.

smaili 11y ago
Speaking of distributed systems, are there any good articles that go over some of the common problems that normally occur as your infrastructure grows?
pdkl95 11y ago
> politics is often seen as off-topic That attitude is a huge problem. Everything is political, because politics is simply the way we solve problems, negotiate details, and make decisions in a society. > lethal failure modes Non-lethal failure modes can still be just as much of a problem, and small problems are still problems. > Very few of us will work on systems that impact human life Everybody that makes a product is impacting human life. You may not be making something with immediately obvious lethal failure modes, but it still has an impact. At ever step in the building process decisions are made that affect people. Many of these are probably small and inconsequential, but prediction is hard and sometimes supposedly-trivial things have large, widespread effects. Hiding from politics and claiming that something is "apolitical" cedes the decisions to others, and technology is rapidly magnifying the impact even trivial things can have. So please, consider the surrounding politics before working on something, and at least try to consider the greater context of how people will be affected - both good and bad ways - by the work you do. Why? Because there is "no neutral ground, in a burning world"[1]. -- [1] Which is the title of Eleanor Saitta and Quinn Norton's 30C3 talk[2], which explains these ideas better than I can. [2] https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272300_-_no_neutral_ground_in_a_burning_world_-_quinn_norton_-_eleanor_saitta https://media.ccc.de/v/30C3_-_5491_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201312272... http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burning-world/ http://opentranscripts.org/transcript/no-neutral-ground-burn...

retrogradeorbit 11y ago

It's a very old strategy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule

yaacov 11y ago

This isn't quite true. The Pentagon's only supporting SDF fighters from the cantons of Jazera and Kobane. These guys were from Afrin, which is separated from the other two cantons by a pretty big strip of IS-controlled territory. http://warontherocks.com/2016/03/are-cia-backed-syrian-rebels-really-fighting-pentagon-backed-syrian-rebels/ http://warontherocks.com/2016/03/are-cia-backed-syrian-rebel...

DannoHung 11y ago

Well, you gotta grow the next generation of terrorists, don't you?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

chvid 11y ago

Syria really examplifies the terrible incoherent state of Western (American, secondly EU) foreign policy. There is really a need for change; unfortunately it is a bit hard to see where that will be coming from at the moment.

AlwaysBCoding 11y ago
For better or worse a Trump presidency would almost certainly be a fundamental rewrite of the way the U.S. government functions in the world.
- chvid 11y ago
  Yes. That may be true. However; I do (still) find it unlikely that Trump will be the next president. And I am also not quite sure what his foreign policies will be. Another big change may come from Britain's exit from the EU (also something I find unlikely). This will be the end of EU as it is today. And will probably lead to a more protectionist and less interventionalist foreign policy regime across the board.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    > This will be the end of EU as it is today. Amen.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      The EU needs reform. However, historically Europe engaged in very nasty wars every few years. A fractured isolationist non-corporative set of European states could be very bad for all of us.
      - atmosx 11y ago
        I am not sure if you realize the role of Euro in the rise of extremism in the EU. The fact that the EU is ruled by political midgets played a najor role too.

0xFFC 11y ago

I am from middle east and I am atheist (because so many people will accuse me of being Muslim).I want to touch on topic which is a little bit off topic. But for people who wants to see big picture it is essential. I can only say one thing to your politician's : Get the fuck out of middle East. There is one way to change middle East and it is to change culture by improving your own society. When I read news about USA domestic issuse my mind blows up, how these fuckers (politicians) can bring us democracy?when they don't even care about their own people. Looks what's going on in Flint Michigan. At the otherhand when people go and see what is going on in countries like Norway/Finland(which didn't invade any country in middle East in recent years.didn't intervene and overthrow government in middle East) then they really start to think there is something wrong about us culturally (middle East) and we should start to change , and bring to ourselves what these country's have already, like democracy, freedom of speech.(this is when real change start to happen, not when some moron like bush spend billions and billions without achieving single goal and for just making enemy's) At the other hand by USA presense in middle East they (usa)are basically undermine our (liberal people in middle East) argument for common people in middle East.Believe it or not hardliners will say we are traitor and West's puppets, and believe me people believe it when West's does actually occupy or intervene in their country politics. I can't understand, what is hard to get? Get the fuck out of middle East. Overthrowing Mossadegh(democratically elected). Backing Saudi Arabia (one of the worst human rights record, maybe a little bit better than ISIS itself) for many years. Backing Egyptian dictator (mobarak) for many years. Backing Saddam against Iran , while Saddam did use chemical weapon. Backing mujahedeen (basically Tliban) against Soviet Union. And list goes on. You cannot keep snake in your backyard and expect them to only bite your neighbor. honestly asking ? What the fuck do you want from us?

chvid 11y ago
What are the particular problems in Norway, Finland and Flint, Michigan you are referring to?
- JeffreyKaine 11y ago
  Parent was praising Norway and Finland for their focus on leveling up their culture and economy. No problems there. As for Flint, Michigan... A quick google will give you a lot of info, but the gist of it is that they have had lead in their water for over two years and it's beyond toxic. Their government has failed them.

partycoder 11y ago

They just want perpetual conflict. Because perpetual conflict means perpetual war, and perpetual war means cash supply for the military industrial complex.

RobertoG 11y ago
I have problems believing that narrative. I think that it's too simplistic to forget strategic goals. For instance, perpetual conflict also means that no strong power can appear in the area.
- partycoder 11y ago
  Before WW1, that was the Ottoman empire. The arab provinces of the empire were unhappy, and contacted the entente. The agreed to revolt against the turks in exchange for control over all that area. The arabs fought against the turks, with the help of the entente, however as soon as the war ended, the entente revealed their actual plan: the sykes-picot agreement. Basically they got backstabbed. In this agreement they would divide the area, give it new names, put it under foreign control. Since then the area is a constant mess. By design. Then every other year they finance some rebel group or army here and there so there's never peace.
0xFFC 11y ago
Sad thing is this military industrial complex does control media establishment today.so most of the people don't have any clue whats going on in the world and think about USA as savior of humanity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8va9vLap2JI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8va9vLap2JI Makes me crazy.do people actually watch fox? Apparently they do. And here we are.

known 11y ago

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the USA. They don't care." --Nelson Mandela http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nelson-mandela-iraq-israel_b_4396638.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nelson-mandela-i...

supremeanger 11y ago
Thats rich coming from Mandela, a terrorist
- known 11y ago
  A terrorist is a freedom fighter who is not on your side;

cm2187 11y ago

I wonder how much of the mess in the middle east is cause by the erratic western diplomacy and how much would have happened anyway. Clearly the US invasion of Iraq, and the chaos that followed has been a catalyst for islamism in the region. The US+European backed revolution in Libya, Syria and Egypt only added to the chaos. It is tempting to think that had we just stayed away from all that, the region would be under the control of ruthless dictators but at least would be in peace, and islamists would be in jail. When we think that half of the population of Syria are now refugees, of which half had to emigrate, is overthrowing Al Assad really worth that, and is overthrowing Al Assad worth creating ISIS? I must say that for how much I dislike Putin, he has a point when he tells Western diplomacy: look at the mess in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and now you are telling me you want to invade another country in the middle east? On the other side when we look at most of these conflicts, they are really ethnic conflicts. Sunnis vs Shia vs Kurds vs Alawites vs etc... Both Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi were old and were bound to die in the next 10-20 years (as of 2002). And the rise of Islamism is a global phenomenon that spans from Indonesia to Morocco, through Turkey or Pakistan, from the muslim suburbs of Paris and Brussels to the desert in Mali. Perhaps all of this would have happened anyway. Like it is foreseeable that when Saudi Arabia will run out of oil money, it will descent in a state of complete chaos. I think of Islamism as a kind of a repeat of communism, it's an ideology which time has come, which will find a broad adhesion in the muslim world, and will likely disappear the same way communism did, through its own disastrous results when in power and inability to compete with the West, both economically and in term of values. The most anti-communist populations are the populations that have been ruled by communism (Eastern Europe). As for ethnic conflicts, there are no good solutions. If two populations hate each others, grand speeches at the UN headquarters in NYC will not change anything. I'd be incline to think we should stay away from ethnic conflicts. We should keep in mind that whoever we decide to back in Syria, once that side wins, they will start a terrible ethnic cleansing. Do we really want to sponsor that?

DavidHm 11y ago
It's been a while since a stray comment on the internet has made me reconsider so many things that I was previously convinced of. Thanks for this.
11y ago

pknerd 11y ago

Not something new. US backed Iraq in past, supplied emos, later fought against it. US aided Mujahideen of Afghanistan in past later become Talibans. US aided Pakistan Army and Afghan government to fight against them. Since it's Hackernews, the best analogy would be funding by VCs to different startups to compete with each other. Here CIA and Pentagon are VCs providing Emos to "Startups" to test their weapons for other wars.

ingsoc79 11y ago

Can't help but be reminded of this scene in Woody Allen's Bananas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-NL3R8wm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-NL3R8wm0

andrewvijay 11y ago

Such an open evidence and yet no country accuses the US.

pknerd 11y ago

"We like war because we are good at it" - Carlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MnJqhcZvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9MnJqhcZvw

teekert 11y ago

Why do the EU and US dislike Assad? He has been saying for years that the Free Syrian Army are a bunch of crazies who Barbecue heads etc. There could well be IS-ers among them. Why are we (EU/US) not working with the Russians and Assad? Remember that those chemical weapons, after a lot of accusations were fired by the rebels, not by Assad.

Cyph0n 11y ago
Because he's been killing his own people from the very start? Why do people so easily forget how this all started? It's only been 5 years.
acqq 11y ago
> Why do the EU and US dislike Assad? It's a long and old (decades!) story, per US embassy cables published by WikiLeaks. The news story: http://www.activistpost.com/2015/09/julian-assange-reveals-another-2006-western-plan-to-destroy-syria.html http://www.activistpost.com/2015/09/julian-assange-reveals-a... The US ambassador 2006 leaked cable itself: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html So it's not by accident that Chelsea Manning was treated as he was for leaking these cables. And that Assange still can't leave the embassy in London.
nl 11y ago
Assad is a murderous butcher whose regime tortured children[1][2]. I think that's a fairly good reason to dislike him. It's easy for us in the West to sit here and say that he was better that what came later. That certainly wasn't apparent at the time, and I think that alone is enough of a reason to be wary of him. If that wasn't enough, there's his regime's history of attempting to build nuclear weapons with North Korean help as well as it's use of chemical weapons against civilians. These aren't the Iraqi-war mythical weapons of mass destruction, but real weapons that were either used (chemical) or destroyed. It's possible that the rebels used chemical weapons too, but absolutely certain that Assad's forces did[3]. Notably, the Russians (who don't often fall for Western propaganda) were the ones who forced Assad to give up his chemical weapon stockpiles after they were used. The Russians did blame the rebels for one attack, and it is likely that may be correct. That doesn't remove Assad's guilt for the other attacks. [1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-photos-killed-detainees https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/16/syria-stories-behind-pho... [2] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-17/photos-show-deaths-of-thousands-in-syrian-regime-jails/7038020 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-17/photos-show-deaths-of-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the...

INTPenis 11y ago

This article sure expects much from the intelligence community. I don't think anyone can claim to have "control" over groups so diverse and distanced from themselves.

jacobush 11y ago

Divide and conquer.

musha68k 11y ago

This reads like out of one of Hideo Kojima's computer games, war as a "business model"? "War has changed. It's no longer about nations, ideologies, or ethnicity. It's an endless series of proxy battles fought by mercenaries and machines. War - and its consumption of life - has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID-tagged soldiers carry ID-tagged weapons, use ID-tagged gear. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their abilities. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefiled control. Everything is monitored and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control, all in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass destruction. And he who controls the battlefield, controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, war becomes routine." – Solid Snake, Metal Gear Solid 4

titzer 11y ago

The only way to always win at war is to fight on both sides.

contingencies 11y ago
... or not to play. By contrast, Sun Zi's The Art of War, being more a manual of practical statesmanship and less an ethical or philosophical sounding board, states that one should only go to war when in a position of strength and certain victory. Further, actual warfare is a last option: "the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field."

cm3 11y ago

Haven't the CIA (and DEA to some extent) always been operating in J. Edgar Hoover style crooked, hypocritical, mobster mode, under the belief that laws are for everyone else but them? They seem to follow long-term agendas with zero consideration for material, human, and societal losses.

mikelyons 11y ago

Destabilize another area, and you have a constant source of "world-news" to fearmonger with in order to take away the rights and enslave the population of your own country under the guise of democratic security.