5 ms·

With No Inkling of the Contents: Viewing Narnia Through a Hindu Lens

87 points by samclemens 11y ago

dmlorenzetti 11y ago
The essay "Shakespeare in the Bush" describes an anthropologist recounting "Hamlet" to a group of people in West Africa. Their cultural expectations completely upset her understanding of the "true meaning" of the play. http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/12476/shakespeare-in-the-bush http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/12476/s...
- ams6110 11y ago
  I enjoyed reading that, thanks for posting the link.
- dmurray 11y ago
  I found this very interesting and well written. I submitted it to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11368960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11368960
- oska 11y ago
  James Thurber wrote a short story for The New Yorker [1] where a fan of whodunnits picks up a copy of Macbeth and proceeds to read it while looking to solve who the real murderer of Duncan was (not Macbeth, too obvious). [1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1937/10/02/the-macbeth-murder-mystery http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1937/10/02/the-macbeth-mur...
kiba 11y ago
I read a lot of Japanese/Koreans/Chinese/etc comics. They're enjoyable to me. Naruto is huge in Japan and elsewhere, so is Dragonball, and other franchises. I wondered recently what cultural context am I missing there. How universal is our experience of those foreign imports?
- Jack000 11y ago
  the original dragonball is based on journey to the west, which had characters who were Buddhist gods. As dragonball went on they sort of turned those religious/mythical themes into more digestible fantasy/scifi.
- labster 11y ago
  Well... a lot of our experience of literature/fiction/life is not universal. Literary criticism is widely varied for a reason, even on works from the same country and language. It's hard to get a handle on what you don't know, but you can approximate based on others. Think about depictions of Western culture that you've read in manga/manhua. Or times you've said out loud "that's totally cool but Christianity does ''not'' work that way" (at least that's what I do.) Then assume you are roughly as ignorant as they are. Ultimately, you're missing some of the culture not because of nihonjinron nonsense, but just because you aren't immersed in the culture constantly. Another way to judge Japanese mythological reference knowledge is to read Urusei Yatsura and see how long you can go without asking why something happens or who an alien species represents in mythology. (The UY setting is basically Japanese mythology with a sci-fi shim.)
reuven 11y ago
I sympathize with the author: I'm Jewish, and read the Narnia books when I was a kid. I absolutely loved them, and read them all multiple times -- except for the last one, which I never understood, and which struck me as completely weird. When I was 16, I stayed with friends of my parents while traveling. I saw a book analyzing Narnia, and it talked about CS Lewis as a Christian theologian. My response was: Wow, that's fascinating; I guess he managed to keep that out of the Narnia books, right? But then I kept reading that book about CS Lewis, and it described how Narnia was all Christian, and how its symbolism, and characters, and language, were all about Christianity. I was absolutely shocked. How could I have missed it? But I missed it because I was the wrong audience. The "dog whistles," as they're known in the political realm nowadays, failed to work for me, because I hadn't been raised to think in those terms. By the way, I encouraged my kids to read Narnia I even read many of the books to them when they were younger. But I told them that the last book would be really weird, and that it reflects the author's Christian perspective. None of them got into the series as much as I did, so much less explaining had to happen -- but I did talk about it with them, and I think that they were almost as surprised as I was.
- kbenson 11y ago
  My experience mirrors yours almost exactly. I don't remember the story all that clearly any more (probably because I didn't end up reading a a work analyzing it, but I vaguely remember it being weird towards the end. When the movies came out and people were commenting how it was very heavily Christian, I was somewhat surprised, not having caught that when I read it while younger. I'm not Jewish though. I was raised rather Agnostically, but relatives are Protestant, and I guess my Parents are? I've only been to Church three or four times for service, twice of those in Sunday school because I was young, and all because we were visiting relatives. Interestingly, it wasn't until I was 16 or 17 that I can recall asking my dad if he believed in God, and when he responded "probably", I was genuinely surprised. I had assumed he was Atheist, as I was and am. Religion was such a non-existent part of my upbringing that I didn't know my parents beliefs (I later found out my Mother used to teach Sunday school before I was born). I did go to a Protestant preschool, but when young that indoctrination wears off pretty quickly without reinforcement. My own children occasionally ask me about God or Jesus (the younger ones went to a preschool based at a Methodist church because it's a good preschool). When asked a general question, I'll say "some people believe that" and explain a belief to the best of my ability. If asked my own opinion on it I'll tell them I don't believe, but it's up to them to make their own choice.
valine 11y ago
> Panentheism exists in Narnia. Not only is it a land overflowing with natural beauty, but its talking trees, talking beasts, fauns and centaurs are on par with its humans. It is easier to sense the divine in animals and trees that can converse with you. The landscape is stunning: the crystal-like purity of the winter snow, the deep blue of the sea, the panorama of mountains and valleys and forests spread beneath you when you are up in the sky astride a flying horse. 'Pantheism' is the belief that everything is God. C.S. Lewis was an outspoken Theist. He believed there was a clear separation between the creator and the creation. The creation simply reflects the beauty of God. If I had to explain it I would say it's like the relationship between Johny Ives and the iPhone. An iPhone is beautiful because it was designed by a master, not because the iPhone is actually Sir Johnathan Ives in disguise. C.S. Lewis did not intend for his books to be read through a Hindu worldview. I can't imagine he would intentionally create a pantheistic world. Does that make this interpretation meaningless?
- barrkel 11y ago
  C.S. Lewis did not intend for his books to be read through a Hindu worldview Sure, but that's irrelevant, isn't it? The artist doesn't get to choose how people react to their art.
  - notdonspaulding 11y ago
    The artist doesn't get to choose how people react to their art. C.S. Lewis takes on the issue of subjectivism in his book "The Abolition of Man". He takes a pretty close look at the ethical repercussions of moral subjectivity. It's a fairly quick read and I think it's even available online because it's out of copyright. It's not by any means a direct rebuttal of your comment, but right at the beginning of the book I think there's an example that's germane to this current conversation. You may find it interesting.
    - e12e 11y ago
      Link: https://archive.org/details/TheAbolitionOfMan_229 https://archive.org/details/TheAbolitionOfMan_229 After skimming a few pages, I don't read it as a critique against all subjectivism -- more of a critique of simple subjectivism. Lewis holds up some books as examples of "true" art, and so holds his subjective view as superior to the schoolbook example he disparages. Just as there is crap art, there is crap critique.
MPSimmons 11y ago
True story: I was raised basically without faith but in a vaguely Christian-oriented house, but it's because of Narnia that I eventually became an atheist. It all started when a Calormene guy died and was surprised to find Aslan, but expected to find Tash. Aslan said that through out the Calormene's life, he had done good things in Tash's name, but good deeds done in Tash's name are given or credited to Aslan, and that it wasn't the name in which the deeds were done, but the intent of the deeds themselves. That was intriguing to a 10 year old, and I thought a lot about it. Eventually I settled on the idea that, if there is a God, and everyone prays to God, and there's only one God, then everyone is praying to the same God, regardless of the name they call it. From there, it wasn't a long trip to Deism. I was a Deist for most of my life, and eventually I began to critically evaluate what the idea of God really was, and what existence really is, and means. I've finally come to terms with the idea that, if there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent power, it's the universe as a whole, but since you can't take any part of existence and remove the part that isn't divine (that is, you can't identify the part that is divine, and by exclusion, you can't differentiate the part that isn't divine), then God in the normal sense doesn't "exist". So is there a God? I don't think so, but if there IS a God, its existence can't be proven one way or another, so for all intents and purposes, it can be assumed to not exist. That being said, if you, as many humans do, feel comfort from a belief in something greater than yourself and you want to learn more about the divine, I suggest that you spend time examining math and physics, since the traditional holy books are written by people who were supposedly divinely influenced, but math books and physics books are works describing the world as it is, and in that case, are the closest glimpse of the divine that you're likely to get in this life.
- taneq 11y ago
  It sounds like you've ended up roughly in the same place a I have; that there may be one or more Gods but that, as their existence or not is by definition un-testable, that if they do exist then they're irrelevant.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Nothing that's untestable is worth attention. Except for considering how it might be tested, anyway. And except for the fun of bullshit ;)
strudey 11y ago
There's a great book called 'Planet Narnia' (by Michael Ward, "the foremost living Lewis scholar") that argues (to me, very convincingly) that Lewis wrote the Narniad based around Medieval cosmology. Not the easiest read but, in my view, very rewarding and really provides insight into some beloved stories and how they relate to Lewis' religion.

87 points by samclemens 11y ago

The essay "Shakespeare in the Bush" describes an anthropologist recounting "Hamlet" to a group of people in West Africa. Their cultural expectations completely upset her understanding of the "true meaning" of the play. http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/12476/shakespeare-in-the-bush http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/picks-from-the-past/12476/s...

ams6110 11y ago
I enjoyed reading that, thanks for posting the link.
dmurray 11y ago
I found this very interesting and well written. I submitted it to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11368960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11368960
oska 11y ago
James Thurber wrote a short story for The New Yorker [1] where a fan of whodunnits picks up a copy of Macbeth and proceeds to read it while looking to solve who the real murderer of Duncan was (not Macbeth, too obvious). [1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1937/10/02/the-macbeth-murder-mystery http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1937/10/02/the-macbeth-mur...

kiba 11y ago

I read a lot of Japanese/Koreans/Chinese/etc comics. They're enjoyable to me. Naruto is huge in Japan and elsewhere, so is Dragonball, and other franchises. I wondered recently what cultural context am I missing there. How universal is our experience of those foreign imports?

Jack000 11y ago
the original dragonball is based on journey to the west, which had characters who were Buddhist gods. As dragonball went on they sort of turned those religious/mythical themes into more digestible fantasy/scifi.
labster 11y ago
Well... a lot of our experience of literature/fiction/life is not universal. Literary criticism is widely varied for a reason, even on works from the same country and language. It's hard to get a handle on what you don't know, but you can approximate based on others. Think about depictions of Western culture that you've read in manga/manhua. Or times you've said out loud "that's totally cool but Christianity does ''not'' work that way" (at least that's what I do.) Then assume you are roughly as ignorant as they are. Ultimately, you're missing some of the culture not because of nihonjinron nonsense, but just because you aren't immersed in the culture constantly. Another way to judge Japanese mythological reference knowledge is to read Urusei Yatsura and see how long you can go without asking why something happens or who an alien species represents in mythology. (The UY setting is basically Japanese mythology with a sci-fi shim.)

reuven 11y ago

I sympathize with the author: I'm Jewish, and read the Narnia books when I was a kid. I absolutely loved them, and read them all multiple times -- except for the last one, which I never understood, and which struck me as completely weird. When I was 16, I stayed with friends of my parents while traveling. I saw a book analyzing Narnia, and it talked about CS Lewis as a Christian theologian. My response was: Wow, that's fascinating; I guess he managed to keep that out of the Narnia books, right? But then I kept reading that book about CS Lewis, and it described how Narnia was all Christian, and how its symbolism, and characters, and language, were all about Christianity. I was absolutely shocked. How could I have missed it? But I missed it because I was the wrong audience. The "dog whistles," as they're known in the political realm nowadays, failed to work for me, because I hadn't been raised to think in those terms. By the way, I encouraged my kids to read Narnia I even read many of the books to them when they were younger. But I told them that the last book would be really weird, and that it reflects the author's Christian perspective. None of them got into the series as much as I did, so much less explaining had to happen -- but I did talk about it with them, and I think that they were almost as surprised as I was.

kbenson 11y ago
My experience mirrors yours almost exactly. I don't remember the story all that clearly any more (probably because I didn't end up reading a a work analyzing it, but I vaguely remember it being weird towards the end. When the movies came out and people were commenting how it was very heavily Christian, I was somewhat surprised, not having caught that when I read it while younger. I'm not Jewish though. I was raised rather Agnostically, but relatives are Protestant, and I guess my Parents are? I've only been to Church three or four times for service, twice of those in Sunday school because I was young, and all because we were visiting relatives. Interestingly, it wasn't until I was 16 or 17 that I can recall asking my dad if he believed in God, and when he responded "probably", I was genuinely surprised. I had assumed he was Atheist, as I was and am. Religion was such a non-existent part of my upbringing that I didn't know my parents beliefs (I later found out my Mother used to teach Sunday school before I was born). I did go to a Protestant preschool, but when young that indoctrination wears off pretty quickly without reinforcement. My own children occasionally ask me about God or Jesus (the younger ones went to a preschool based at a Methodist church because it's a good preschool). When asked a general question, I'll say "some people believe that" and explain a belief to the best of my ability. If asked my own opinion on it I'll tell them I don't believe, but it's up to them to make their own choice.

valine 11y ago

> Panentheism exists in Narnia. Not only is it a land overflowing with natural beauty, but its talking trees, talking beasts, fauns and centaurs are on par with its humans. It is easier to sense the divine in animals and trees that can converse with you. The landscape is stunning: the crystal-like purity of the winter snow, the deep blue of the sea, the panorama of mountains and valleys and forests spread beneath you when you are up in the sky astride a flying horse. 'Pantheism' is the belief that everything is God. C.S. Lewis was an outspoken Theist. He believed there was a clear separation between the creator and the creation. The creation simply reflects the beauty of God. If I had to explain it I would say it's like the relationship between Johny Ives and the iPhone. An iPhone is beautiful because it was designed by a master, not because the iPhone is actually Sir Johnathan Ives in disguise. C.S. Lewis did not intend for his books to be read through a Hindu worldview. I can't imagine he would intentionally create a pantheistic world. Does that make this interpretation meaningless?

barrkel 11y ago
C.S. Lewis did not intend for his books to be read through a Hindu worldview Sure, but that's irrelevant, isn't it? The artist doesn't get to choose how people react to their art.
- notdonspaulding 11y ago
  The artist doesn't get to choose how people react to their art. C.S. Lewis takes on the issue of subjectivism in his book "The Abolition of Man". He takes a pretty close look at the ethical repercussions of moral subjectivity. It's a fairly quick read and I think it's even available online because it's out of copyright. It's not by any means a direct rebuttal of your comment, but right at the beginning of the book I think there's an example that's germane to this current conversation. You may find it interesting.
  - e12e 11y ago
    Link: https://archive.org/details/TheAbolitionOfMan_229 https://archive.org/details/TheAbolitionOfMan_229 After skimming a few pages, I don't read it as a critique against all subjectivism -- more of a critique of simple subjectivism. Lewis holds up some books as examples of "true" art, and so holds his subjective view as superior to the schoolbook example he disparages. Just as there is crap art, there is crap critique.

MPSimmons 11y ago

True story: I was raised basically without faith but in a vaguely Christian-oriented house, but it's because of Narnia that I eventually became an atheist. It all started when a Calormene guy died and was surprised to find Aslan, but expected to find Tash. Aslan said that through out the Calormene's life, he had done good things in Tash's name, but good deeds done in Tash's name are given or credited to Aslan, and that it wasn't the name in which the deeds were done, but the intent of the deeds themselves. That was intriguing to a 10 year old, and I thought a lot about it. Eventually I settled on the idea that, if there is a God, and everyone prays to God, and there's only one God, then everyone is praying to the same God, regardless of the name they call it. From there, it wasn't a long trip to Deism. I was a Deist for most of my life, and eventually I began to critically evaluate what the idea of God really was, and what existence really is, and means. I've finally come to terms with the idea that, if there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent power, it's the universe as a whole, but since you can't take any part of existence and remove the part that isn't divine (that is, you can't identify the part that is divine, and by exclusion, you can't differentiate the part that isn't divine), then God in the normal sense doesn't "exist". So is there a God? I don't think so, but if there IS a God, its existence can't be proven one way or another, so for all intents and purposes, it can be assumed to not exist. That being said, if you, as many humans do, feel comfort from a belief in something greater than yourself and you want to learn more about the divine, I suggest that you spend time examining math and physics, since the traditional holy books are written by people who were supposedly divinely influenced, but math books and physics books are works describing the world as it is, and in that case, are the closest glimpse of the divine that you're likely to get in this life.

taneq 11y ago
It sounds like you've ended up roughly in the same place a I have; that there may be one or more Gods but that, as their existence or not is by definition un-testable, that if they do exist then they're irrelevant.
- mirimir 11y ago
  Nothing that's untestable is worth attention. Except for considering how it might be tested, anyway. And except for the fun of bullshit ;)

strudey 11y ago

There's a great book called 'Planet Narnia' (by Michael Ward, "the foremost living Lewis scholar") that argues (to me, very convincingly) that Lewis wrote the Narniad based around Medieval cosmology. Not the easiest read but, in my view, very rewarding and really provides insight into some beloved stories and how they relate to Lewis' religion.