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The issue here wasn't that they were just using Amazon's API and then lost access. The Amazon TOS says don't store and display our old prices and, per the post,

The issue here wasn't that they were just using Amazon's API and then lost access. The Amazon TOS says don't store and display our old prices and, per the post, that's what PriceZombie was doing. The lesson is that if you're doing something in violation of a partner's TOS and start to negatively effect their business, the partner is well within their rights to cut off access. Whether other businesses have or haven't been slapped down is only a secondary question.

iolothebard 11y ago
Exactly, you want to run something like this you have to scrape like LexisNexis, etc.
- gberger 11y ago
  It doesn't matter how they scrape. They could continue scraping prices if they wanted to. The problem is they lost access to the Affiliates API -- which is how they make money.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    They couldn't continue scraping without Amazon's permission. The CFAA makes that illegal.
    - iolothebard 11y ago
      Not sure how: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#Protected_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#P...
      - cookiecaper 11y ago
        Most Terms of Use contain language that states that automated access is unauthorized, and most companies allege you've agreed to their Terms of Use by accessing any page other than their front page (or accessing the front page more than once). Furthermore, even if this is lacking, once a company provides notice that you are no longer authorized to access their computers, it doesn't matter what the Terms of Use may say or whether the ToU is considered a binding contract; you've received notice that your access is unauthorized. The CFAA generally applies to any computer access, as the Commerce Clause has been interpreted as applying to completely intra-state transactions (ignoring the fact that most computer access crosses state lines, which would make it a federal issue anyway), and thus, effectively all computers attached to the internet are "protected computers". Even if you're able to prevail in the argument that the CFAA is not applicable, there are similarly-worded state statutes, and as mentioned, other issues may federal matters, like alleged copyright and trademark infringement (which is usually alleged in such cases). The CFAA is somewhat grey so if you have a few hundred k or more to flush on your lawyers, go ahead, it's possible that you may win. For most people, it's not relevant, because they can't afford to go head-to-head against a major global corporate entity like Amazon. One of the main goals of such a company is to make the lawsuit as costly as possible for the opposing party, since they have infinity money and they know that their opponent likely doesn't. If you're interested, there have been a handful of cases already litigated on the CFAA. The scrapers usually get smoked hard. Look up Ticketmaster v. RMG Technologies, Craigslist v. 3Taps, Register.com v. Verio, and Facebook v. Power Ventures to get started.
ValentineC 11y ago
The Amazon TOS says don't store and display our old prices How is Amazon fine with CamelCamelCamel [1] then? It seems like they make money off Amazon affiliate links too. [1] http://camelcamelcamel.com/blog/how-our-price-checking-system-works http://camelcamelcamel.com/blog/how-our-price-checking-syste...
- Bhullnatik 11y ago
  From the parent comment: Whether other businesses have or haven't been slapped down is only a secondary question.
- djsumdog 11y ago
  They probably just haven't been caught yet. Amazon is massive and has tons of people who use their Affiliate API. There's probably a small enforcement team that looks at stuff like this. Price Zombie might have just gotten large enough to show up on their radar.
  - meritt 11y ago
    CCC has been around for a very long time. That seems very unlikely they 'haven't been caught yet'.
    - sangnoir 11y ago
      Well, PriceZombie was around for a long time too and they 'hadn't been caught' until recently. So maybe it's not unlikely
      - subsection1h 11y ago
        Not that it affects your argument, but camelcamelcamel has been around twice as long as PriceZomebie[1][2]. [1] https://www.facebook.com/Camelcamelcamelcom-154220361288305/info https://www.facebook.com/Camelcamelcamelcom-154220361288305/... [2] https://www.facebook.com/Pricezombie/info https://www.facebook.com/Pricezombie/info
      - 11y ago
forrestthewoods 11y ago
That's not the lesson at all. Even if you follow the TOS those terms can change overnight and your business will die in the same way. If you are 100% reliant on another company you're entire existence depends on that relationship.
- dave2000 11y ago
  Every business is 100% on other companies. Everyone uses electricity, has to ship product, buy resources, use devices to transform those resources etc. The problem here only really exists in these silly other parasitical web-only businesses. Yes, if you track Amazon's prices and Amazon makes that harder then you'll be on trouble. So probably best to set up 20 or so companies/services in your spare time and not take any of them too seriously.
  - cortesoft 11y ago
    Right, but those other business have alternatives if the relationship with one fails (with the exception of electricity, which is regulated and therefore a bit different.)
  - Domenic_S 11y ago
    No, the problem here is that the power company can't unilaterally decide you don't get power anymore and turn it off without warning. Your shipping carrier can't suddenly decide they don't serve you anymore, and by the way we're keeping all the packages you have en route. But Amazon can. They also pay a few months in arrears, so one day you may wake up to a form email that says essentially, "adios, and I'm keeping the money". In fairness, I believe all affiliate programs are like that.
    - ryao 11y ago
      These are called carriers and utilities. There ar generally laws requiring them to offer the same business opportunities to everyone. Common carrier laws originated in England to regulate shipping carriers. I am not sure to what extent they exist in the US due to the federal postal service, but I understand that they are applied to telecommunications and more recently, the Internet via Title II.
InsideTrack 11y ago
You miss the point. PriceZombie was above board with what they were doing at all times. Amazon TOLD THEM that as long as their latest price was within 24 hours they could display price history like dozens of other price trackers were doing. PZ was reviewed three times, not just by low level people but higher up in the chain, and each time there was no question they were within the TOS so long as they displayed the current price along with price history. This is why PZ's Reddit bot always pulls up and displays the current price when queried. After three years, Amazon changed their mind - but not for everyone, just PZ.
- ryao 11y ago
  Many of the shoppers using Price Zombie likely relied on Price Zombie's historical pricing data and notifications of price drops to delay purchases until prices for items were relatively low. The affiliate link gave Amazon data on which shoppers were using Price Zombie. Maybe someone at Amazon used their data to estimate the decrease in margins from that, causing Amazon's leadership to change its mind.
  - dhimes 11y ago
    So Price Zombie was the best, and it hurt them. GOTO patio11's comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11360482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11360482
  - BorisMelnik 11y ago
    yes it is true, one of the main reasons I used PZ was for historical data mainly PC parts and such
- kuschku 11y ago
  And there are many similar sites – including ones sponsored by the German government – that still do the same.
- mattlutze 11y ago
  I guess we'll need some references here -- that's a lot of either inside knowledge or assumptions otherwise. If they did have permission from Amazon to violate the TOS, I hope they had a contract to do so with protections/compensation for early termination. If not, the situation is not unlike how off label drug usage can be okay until the FDA tells you to stop. Once they change their minds, that's that.
incepted 11y ago
Also, the problem is that 90% of their revenue apparently depended on this feed from Amazon. It's never healthy to be so dependent on one provider.
- dipnuggetron 11y ago
  Per Fred Wilson: "Be your own bitch". Pretty much any project that is beholden to one major affiliate partner has a shaky business model and no leverage in negotiations.

iolothebard 11y ago

Exactly, you want to run something like this you have to scrape like LexisNexis, etc.

gberger 11y ago
It doesn't matter how they scrape. They could continue scraping prices if they wanted to. The problem is they lost access to the Affiliates API -- which is how they make money.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  They couldn't continue scraping without Amazon's permission. The CFAA makes that illegal.
  - iolothebard 11y ago
    Not sure how: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#Protected_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act#P...
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      Most Terms of Use contain language that states that automated access is unauthorized, and most companies allege you've agreed to their Terms of Use by accessing any page other than their front page (or accessing the front page more than once). Furthermore, even if this is lacking, once a company provides notice that you are no longer authorized to access their computers, it doesn't matter what the Terms of Use may say or whether the ToU is considered a binding contract; you've received notice that your access is unauthorized. The CFAA generally applies to any computer access, as the Commerce Clause has been interpreted as applying to completely intra-state transactions (ignoring the fact that most computer access crosses state lines, which would make it a federal issue anyway), and thus, effectively all computers attached to the internet are "protected computers". Even if you're able to prevail in the argument that the CFAA is not applicable, there are similarly-worded state statutes, and as mentioned, other issues may federal matters, like alleged copyright and trademark infringement (which is usually alleged in such cases). The CFAA is somewhat grey so if you have a few hundred k or more to flush on your lawyers, go ahead, it's possible that you may win. For most people, it's not relevant, because they can't afford to go head-to-head against a major global corporate entity like Amazon. One of the main goals of such a company is to make the lawsuit as costly as possible for the opposing party, since they have infinity money and they know that their opponent likely doesn't. If you're interested, there have been a handful of cases already litigated on the CFAA. The scrapers usually get smoked hard. Look up Ticketmaster v. RMG Technologies, Craigslist v. 3Taps, Register.com v. Verio, and Facebook v. Power Ventures to get started.

ValentineC 11y ago

The Amazon TOS says don't store and display our old prices How is Amazon fine with CamelCamelCamel [1] then? It seems like they make money off Amazon affiliate links too. [1] http://camelcamelcamel.com/blog/how-our-price-checking-system-works http://camelcamelcamel.com/blog/how-our-price-checking-syste...

Bhullnatik 11y ago
From the parent comment: Whether other businesses have or haven't been slapped down is only a secondary question.
djsumdog 11y ago
They probably just haven't been caught yet. Amazon is massive and has tons of people who use their Affiliate API. There's probably a small enforcement team that looks at stuff like this. Price Zombie might have just gotten large enough to show up on their radar.
- meritt 11y ago
  CCC has been around for a very long time. That seems very unlikely they 'haven't been caught yet'.
  - sangnoir 11y ago
    Well, PriceZombie was around for a long time too and they 'hadn't been caught' until recently. So maybe it's not unlikely
    - subsection1h 11y ago
      Not that it affects your argument, but camelcamelcamel has been around twice as long as PriceZomebie[1][2]. [1] https://www.facebook.com/Camelcamelcamelcom-154220361288305/info https://www.facebook.com/Camelcamelcamelcom-154220361288305/... [2] https://www.facebook.com/Pricezombie/info https://www.facebook.com/Pricezombie/info
    - 11y ago

forrestthewoods 11y ago

That's not the lesson at all. Even if you follow the TOS those terms can change overnight and your business will die in the same way. If you are 100% reliant on another company you're entire existence depends on that relationship.

dave2000 11y ago
Every business is 100% on other companies. Everyone uses electricity, has to ship product, buy resources, use devices to transform those resources etc. The problem here only really exists in these silly other parasitical web-only businesses. Yes, if you track Amazon's prices and Amazon makes that harder then you'll be on trouble. So probably best to set up 20 or so companies/services in your spare time and not take any of them too seriously.
- cortesoft 11y ago
  Right, but those other business have alternatives if the relationship with one fails (with the exception of electricity, which is regulated and therefore a bit different.)
- Domenic_S 11y ago
  No, the problem here is that the power company can't unilaterally decide you don't get power anymore and turn it off without warning. Your shipping carrier can't suddenly decide they don't serve you anymore, and by the way we're keeping all the packages you have en route. But Amazon can. They also pay a few months in arrears, so one day you may wake up to a form email that says essentially, "adios, and I'm keeping the money". In fairness, I believe all affiliate programs are like that.
  - ryao 11y ago
    These are called carriers and utilities. There ar generally laws requiring them to offer the same business opportunities to everyone. Common carrier laws originated in England to regulate shipping carriers. I am not sure to what extent they exist in the US due to the federal postal service, but I understand that they are applied to telecommunications and more recently, the Internet via Title II.

InsideTrack 11y ago

You miss the point. PriceZombie was above board with what they were doing at all times. Amazon TOLD THEM that as long as their latest price was within 24 hours they could display price history like dozens of other price trackers were doing. PZ was reviewed three times, not just by low level people but higher up in the chain, and each time there was no question they were within the TOS so long as they displayed the current price along with price history. This is why PZ's Reddit bot always pulls up and displays the current price when queried. After three years, Amazon changed their mind - but not for everyone, just PZ.

ryao 11y ago
Many of the shoppers using Price Zombie likely relied on Price Zombie's historical pricing data and notifications of price drops to delay purchases until prices for items were relatively low. The affiliate link gave Amazon data on which shoppers were using Price Zombie. Maybe someone at Amazon used their data to estimate the decrease in margins from that, causing Amazon's leadership to change its mind.
- dhimes 11y ago
  So Price Zombie was the best, and it hurt them. GOTO patio11's comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11360482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11360482
- BorisMelnik 11y ago
  yes it is true, one of the main reasons I used PZ was for historical data mainly PC parts and such
kuschku 11y ago
And there are many similar sites – including ones sponsored by the German government – that still do the same.
mattlutze 11y ago
I guess we'll need some references here -- that's a lot of either inside knowledge or assumptions otherwise. If they did have permission from Amazon to violate the TOS, I hope they had a contract to do so with protections/compensation for early termination. If not, the situation is not unlike how off label drug usage can be okay until the FDA tells you to stop. Once they change their minds, that's that.

incepted 11y ago

Also, the problem is that 90% of their revenue apparently depended on this feed from Amazon. It's never healthy to be so dependent on one provider.

dipnuggetron 11y ago
Per Fred Wilson: "Be your own bitch". Pretty much any project that is beholden to one major affiliate partner has a shaky business model and no leverage in negotiations.