7 ms·

I'm an Apple-only user at the moment, both mobile and desktop. When Apple asserts that a desktop computer should be replaced by a locked-down handheld device w

by Udo 11y ago

I'm an Apple-only user at the moment, both mobile and desktop. When Apple asserts that a desktop computer should be replaced by a locked-down handheld device with very limited capabilities, the odd thing seems to me is they don't realize these devices do very different things and fulfill very different needs. I don't worry about the demise of the desktop because I'm nostalgic, I worry about the loss of power and productivity incurred by users with desktop-illiteracy. There are many applications for which a handheld device, especially one with the limitations of iOS, is just not suitable - in much the same way a full desktop/laptop computer is not suitable for things mobile devices excel at. That the hardware is locked down, outdated, and supremely expensive are additional criteria making the disconnect worse, but these are not the crux of the problem in my opinion. I see two outcomes from this, neither one is appealing: either Apple is misjudging the needs of their users, to the point where trendsetters like programmers will be switching away from the platform. Or, they succeed in their vision and breed several generations of technologically illiterate information workers fumbling their way through life with nothing but extremely limited mobile devices as their only productivity tool.

widdershins 11y ago
As far as I can see, Apple 'get' the different use cases better than some others in the industry. That's why they've been reluctant to add touch screen to their laptops as Microsoft have done, because they don't see it being useful. I think this was just an ill-judged offhand comment. P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully.
- Udo 11y ago
  > I think this was just an ill-judged offhand comment. I don't think you have provided sufficient information as to why you think my comment was bad. You say the 'get' different use cases better than most in the industry, and that used to be something I agree with. However, this effect is shrinking, at least as far as my personal needs are concerned - which is admittedly anecdotal. > P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. I did the same thing with my 2012 MBP, but I'll have to replace the machine entirely for performance reasons soon, and there is no upgrade path for current MBP models anymore, at all. What you buy is what you'll have.
  - the_af 11y ago
    I think the parent poster meant this was "just an ill-judged offhand comment" on Schiller's part, not you :)
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- consto 11y ago
  My laptop has a touch screen, and I have it disabled in device manager to stop people (including me) touching it.
  - fpgeek 11y ago
    Conversely, my 7 year old daughter dramatically prefers her guest account on my touchscreen laptop as opposed to the non-touch Chromebook we had intended for her to use. She just has a hard time wrapping her head around the idea of a screen that doesn't do anything when you touch it.
    - e12e 11y ago
      I actually always thought the part of "the mother of all demos"[1], where "the mouse" is introduced is a bit awkward, like they know it's a poor hack. Just because we've got a lot of mileage out of it, doesn't mean it's a great input solution. One IMNHO good indication of that is that children (not just your daughter :) seem to overwhelmingly seem to prefer touch input. I'm mostly in agreement with the article, but the author also misses some things, I think: > Yes, the iPad Pro has a very fancy stylus. That’s great for artists, but the vast majority of people aren’t artists and don’t care. > Yes, the iPad Pro has a very fancy, true-to-color screen. That’s great for artists, but the vast majority of people aren’t artists and don’t care. I think good touch and pen input really still is the obvious better way to input. It doesn't work well (enough) without a few decades of UI engineering and real-world testing -- but a "real" digital drawing pad and touch interface is probably a very sensible way to spend the improvements Moore's law have given us: My Amiga 2000 had 4?MB of ram and a 7Mhz processor, my current desktop has four cores at 4Ghz and 16GB of RAM. Using some of that to go from 4096 colours and 320x256 to 24bit 4K or 8k along with real-time input in the form of free-form painting/writing seems reasonable. Just because it's so hard to paint with a mouse that most computer users aren't digital artists, while everyone that's been given pen and paper will have at doodled is a great indication that we need better input for our digital devices. As for the better screen - I think getting pixel resolution on par with print resolution can only be a good thing. Personally I find it much more comfortable to read a thousand pages at high dpi, than at "standard" +/- 1080p on a 20-24" monitor. [1] http://www.wired.com/2010/12/1209computer-mouse-mother-of-all-demos/ http://www.wired.com/2010/12/1209computer-mouse-mother-of-al... "The Mother of All Demos, presented by Douglas Engelbart (1968)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
- microcolonel 11y ago
  For what it's worth, I really like having a touch screen on my laptops. I don't buy laptops without touch screens anymore. But I don't run Windows, maybe on Windows it really IS pointless. Personally I think the greatest strength of the MBPs is the display. The touchpad is rather good in terms of quality, but is ultimately irrelevant to me because I wouldn't use it; it's an ergonomic disaster, especially for day-long work.
- gambiting 11y ago
  >>P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. late-2009 MBP here. Core2Duo 2.4GHz + 4GB of ram. I added a 128GB SSD a year ago and it works beautifully, really fast enough for almost everything.
- Aleman360 11y ago
  The big iPad Pro is a 13" laptop with a touch screen, it's just that the keyboard is detachable and it doesn't have a trackpad. The ergonomic issues are even worse since iOS doesn't support mouse and the screen angle isn't adjustable.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  > P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. Congratulations. You have one of the last macs that were upgradeable.
- ams6110 11y ago
  Or maybe they haven't added touch screen to the laptops because then some fraction of owners might not feel the need to buy an iPad?
  - robmcm 11y ago
    Maybe they haven't added music playback to the iPhone because then some fraction of owners might not feel the need to buy an iPod? Apple promote their ability and willingness to cannibalize their own products.
- peeters 11y ago
  I would argue the Surface was the first device that can actually bridge both form factors. I have a stock HP laptop with a touchscreen and Windows 10, and yeah, I don't really use the touchscreen. But my mother has a Surface and splits the use pretty evenly between typing emails and looking up recipes or travel sites, and also doing jigsaw puzzles using the touchscreen. I mean Apple's response to the different use cases is "buy two specialized devices", Microsoft's was to create a device that tries to do both. Yeah it's taken them a long time to be successful with that strategy, but I wouldn't say it's failing entirely.
masklinn 11y ago
> When Apple asserts that a desktop computer should be replaced by a locked-down handheld device with very limited capabilities, the odd thing seems to me is they don't realize these devices do very different things and fulfill very different needs. Or they do, and they believe that many (if not most) of those users don't have the needs which require desktop computers. They specifically talked about "600 millions of PCs" "over 5 years old" (a convenient cutoff for them as that's just around the ipad introduction, so those are pre-tablet machines as far as apple is concerned) > I don't worry about the demise of the desktop because I'm nostalgic, I worry about the loss of power and productivity incurred by users with desktop-illiteracy. Considering users aren't generally desktop-literate, there really is no loss there. > There are many applications for which a handheld device, especially one with the limitations of iOS, is just not suitable Just as there are many applications for which a sedan is not suitable. Does that mean sedans shouldn't exist, or that we shouldn't recommend sedans for people for whom they are a good fit? > they succeed in their vision and breed several generations of technologically illiterate information workers fumbling their way through life with nothing but extremely limited mobile devices as their only productivity tool There's nothing to breed, everyone who's made the error of doing tech support for their family knows they already exist and are the majority.
saturdaysaint 11y ago
"the odd thing seems to me is they don't realize these devices do very different things and fulfill very different needs." They realize it - remember Jobs' "truck vs. car" analogy - and they're betting that 90% of the population's needs are better met with a car rather than a truck.
- croon 11y ago
  And here's the crux. I don't get the vibe as much that they cater to a specific usergroup, but rather steers/controls them in one direction, with the limitations of their systems. With PC/Linux(/Windows) you can get either the practically grandma safe Ubuntu or Mint installation with everything working, or you can go for Gentoo or Arch or even just a customized Ubuntu or Mint when needing more freedom. There's a thin line between recognizing user needs and deciding user needs.
  - saturdaysaint 11y ago
    With so many of my fundamental apps being cross platform and/or web-based, I don't see why too many users would feel "controlled". In any case, I think we underestimate the market and normal people in these conversations. Any iPad user can freely access the internet and quickly find out that their device is basically unusable for programming or a lot of forms of content creation and even gaming. As software eats the world, the cachet for programming has never been higher, especially among the kids/teens we "worry" about, and the tools have never been cheaper or more accessible.
vegabook 11y ago
> Apple is misjudging the needs of their users, to the point where trendsetters like programmers will be switching away from the platform I feel like this. I feel like the content creators (creative or coding) are being left behind by Apple which has pivoted far too far towards consumer tech. I know professionals aren't profitable compared to the IOS devices, but they surely punch way above their weight on contributing innovation to the Apple ecosystem. A small detail provides clear evidence of the problem: the drop in fusion-drive NAND Flash from 128 to 24 GB late last year. Probably this still serves 90% of users perfectly well, but it's an insult to power users. I for one hope Apple will stop the drift of OSX towards IOS-like candification, and that it will keep up a serious effort on the professional market for the Mac. A good start would be a reversal of the Mac-mini "update" joke, which was actually a regression from 2012, with a user-servicable, 32-GB capable, skylake 4C/8T design as in, now, and please, can we have a proper Cinema display that's not 6 years old?
mhurron 11y ago
> either Apple is misjudging the needs of their users, to the point where trendsetters like programmers will be switching away from the platform. Or, they succeed in their vision and breed several generations of technologically illiterate information workers fumbling their way through life with nothing but extremely limited mobile devices as their only productivity tool. I would dispute the 'programmers are trendsetters' assertion. Apple is probably completely correct in the way that most people use their computer. The majority of users do not use their desktop in a way that would not work on something like an iPad. They browse the web. They use webmail. They listen to music. Now, do you really think that the only way anyone knows how to use a computer at work is because they use the same thing at home? Users learn click here, here and here and you do your job they don't have to know anything about the underlying system. Which is a good thing, because they are probably using some software at work that they can not get at home. Using a locked down device at home is not going to turn people into drooling morons any more or less than they already are. The one thing that would be lost if tablets like the iPad or similar Android devices became the primary device at home is that children would not have a system they could learn the inner workings of, explore on and being to learn to create on. I'm talking about learning programming, not drawing or related artistic activities.

by Udo 11y ago

widdershins 11y ago

As far as I can see, Apple 'get' the different use cases better than some others in the industry. That's why they've been reluctant to add touch screen to their laptops as Microsoft have done, because they don't see it being useful. I think this was just an ill-judged offhand comment. P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully.

Udo 11y ago
> I think this was just an ill-judged offhand comment. I don't think you have provided sufficient information as to why you think my comment was bad. You say the 'get' different use cases better than most in the industry, and that used to be something I agree with. However, this effect is shrinking, at least as far as my personal needs are concerned - which is admittedly anecdotal. > P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. I did the same thing with my 2012 MBP, but I'll have to replace the machine entirely for performance reasons soon, and there is no upgrade path for current MBP models anymore, at all. What you buy is what you'll have.
- the_af 11y ago
  I think the parent poster meant this was "just an ill-judged offhand comment" on Schiller's part, not you :)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
consto 11y ago
My laptop has a touch screen, and I have it disabled in device manager to stop people (including me) touching it.
- fpgeek 11y ago
  Conversely, my 7 year old daughter dramatically prefers her guest account on my touchscreen laptop as opposed to the non-touch Chromebook we had intended for her to use. She just has a hard time wrapping her head around the idea of a screen that doesn't do anything when you touch it.
  - e12e 11y ago
    I actually always thought the part of "the mother of all demos"[1], where "the mouse" is introduced is a bit awkward, like they know it's a poor hack. Just because we've got a lot of mileage out of it, doesn't mean it's a great input solution. One IMNHO good indication of that is that children (not just your daughter :) seem to overwhelmingly seem to prefer touch input. I'm mostly in agreement with the article, but the author also misses some things, I think: > Yes, the iPad Pro has a very fancy stylus. That’s great for artists, but the vast majority of people aren’t artists and don’t care. > Yes, the iPad Pro has a very fancy, true-to-color screen. That’s great for artists, but the vast majority of people aren’t artists and don’t care. I think good touch and pen input really still is the obvious better way to input. It doesn't work well (enough) without a few decades of UI engineering and real-world testing -- but a "real" digital drawing pad and touch interface is probably a very sensible way to spend the improvements Moore's law have given us: My Amiga 2000 had 4?MB of ram and a 7Mhz processor, my current desktop has four cores at 4Ghz and 16GB of RAM. Using some of that to go from 4096 colours and 320x256 to 24bit 4K or 8k along with real-time input in the form of free-form painting/writing seems reasonable. Just because it's so hard to paint with a mouse that most computer users aren't digital artists, while everyone that's been given pen and paper will have at doodled is a great indication that we need better input for our digital devices. As for the better screen - I think getting pixel resolution on par with print resolution can only be a good thing. Personally I find it much more comfortable to read a thousand pages at high dpi, than at "standard" +/- 1080p on a 20-24" monitor. [1] http://www.wired.com/2010/12/1209computer-mouse-mother-of-all-demos/ http://www.wired.com/2010/12/1209computer-mouse-mother-of-al... "The Mother of All Demos, presented by Douglas Engelbart (1968)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY
microcolonel 11y ago
For what it's worth, I really like having a touch screen on my laptops. I don't buy laptops without touch screens anymore. But I don't run Windows, maybe on Windows it really IS pointless. Personally I think the greatest strength of the MBPs is the display. The touchpad is rather good in terms of quality, but is ultimately irrelevant to me because I wouldn't use it; it's an ergonomic disaster, especially for day-long work.
gambiting 11y ago
>>P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. late-2009 MBP here. Core2Duo 2.4GHz + 4GB of ram. I added a 128GB SSD a year ago and it works beautifully, really fast enough for almost everything.
Aleman360 11y ago
The big iPad Pro is a 13" laptop with a touch screen, it's just that the keyboard is detachable and it doesn't have a trackpad. The ergonomic issues are even worse since iOS doesn't support mouse and the screen angle isn't adjustable.
venomsnake 11y ago
> P.S. I'm typing this on an 2010 MBP which, with an SSD upgrade, still works beautifully. Congratulations. You have one of the last macs that were upgradeable.
ams6110 11y ago
Or maybe they haven't added touch screen to the laptops because then some fraction of owners might not feel the need to buy an iPad?
- robmcm 11y ago
  Maybe they haven't added music playback to the iPhone because then some fraction of owners might not feel the need to buy an iPod? Apple promote their ability and willingness to cannibalize their own products.
peeters 11y ago
I would argue the Surface was the first device that can actually bridge both form factors. I have a stock HP laptop with a touchscreen and Windows 10, and yeah, I don't really use the touchscreen. But my mother has a Surface and splits the use pretty evenly between typing emails and looking up recipes or travel sites, and also doing jigsaw puzzles using the touchscreen. I mean Apple's response to the different use cases is "buy two specialized devices", Microsoft's was to create a device that tries to do both. Yeah it's taken them a long time to be successful with that strategy, but I wouldn't say it's failing entirely.

masklinn 11y ago

> When Apple asserts that a desktop computer should be replaced by a locked-down handheld device with very limited capabilities, the odd thing seems to me is they don't realize these devices do very different things and fulfill very different needs. Or they do, and they believe that many (if not most) of those users don't have the needs which require desktop computers. They specifically talked about "600 millions of PCs" "over 5 years old" (a convenient cutoff for them as that's just around the ipad introduction, so those are pre-tablet machines as far as apple is concerned) > I don't worry about the demise of the desktop because I'm nostalgic, I worry about the loss of power and productivity incurred by users with desktop-illiteracy. Considering users aren't generally desktop-literate, there really is no loss there. > There are many applications for which a handheld device, especially one with the limitations of iOS, is just not suitable Just as there are many applications for which a sedan is not suitable. Does that mean sedans shouldn't exist, or that we shouldn't recommend sedans for people for whom they are a good fit? > they succeed in their vision and breed several generations of technologically illiterate information workers fumbling their way through life with nothing but extremely limited mobile devices as their only productivity tool There's nothing to breed, everyone who's made the error of doing tech support for their family knows they already exist and are the majority.

saturdaysaint 11y ago

"the odd thing seems to me is they don't realize these devices do very different things and fulfill very different needs." They realize it - remember Jobs' "truck vs. car" analogy - and they're betting that 90% of the population's needs are better met with a car rather than a truck.

croon 11y ago
And here's the crux. I don't get the vibe as much that they cater to a specific usergroup, but rather steers/controls them in one direction, with the limitations of their systems. With PC/Linux(/Windows) you can get either the practically grandma safe Ubuntu or Mint installation with everything working, or you can go for Gentoo or Arch or even just a customized Ubuntu or Mint when needing more freedom. There's a thin line between recognizing user needs and deciding user needs.
- saturdaysaint 11y ago
  With so many of my fundamental apps being cross platform and/or web-based, I don't see why too many users would feel "controlled". In any case, I think we underestimate the market and normal people in these conversations. Any iPad user can freely access the internet and quickly find out that their device is basically unusable for programming or a lot of forms of content creation and even gaming. As software eats the world, the cachet for programming has never been higher, especially among the kids/teens we "worry" about, and the tools have never been cheaper or more accessible.

vegabook 11y ago

> Apple is misjudging the needs of their users, to the point where trendsetters like programmers will be switching away from the platform I feel like this. I feel like the content creators (creative or coding) are being left behind by Apple which has pivoted far too far towards consumer tech. I know professionals aren't profitable compared to the IOS devices, but they surely punch way above their weight on contributing innovation to the Apple ecosystem. A small detail provides clear evidence of the problem: the drop in fusion-drive NAND Flash from 128 to 24 GB late last year. Probably this still serves 90% of users perfectly well, but it's an insult to power users. I for one hope Apple will stop the drift of OSX towards IOS-like candification, and that it will keep up a serious effort on the professional market for the Mac. A good start would be a reversal of the Mac-mini "update" joke, which was actually a regression from 2012, with a user-servicable, 32-GB capable, skylake 4C/8T design as in, now, and please, can we have a proper Cinema display that's not 6 years old?

mhurron 11y ago

> either Apple is misjudging the needs of their users, to the point where trendsetters like programmers will be switching away from the platform. Or, they succeed in their vision and breed several generations of technologically illiterate information workers fumbling their way through life with nothing but extremely limited mobile devices as their only productivity tool. I would dispute the 'programmers are trendsetters' assertion. Apple is probably completely correct in the way that most people use their computer. The majority of users do not use their desktop in a way that would not work on something like an iPad. They browse the web. They use webmail. They listen to music. Now, do you really think that the only way anyone knows how to use a computer at work is because they use the same thing at home? Users learn click here, here and here and you do your job they don't have to know anything about the underlying system. Which is a good thing, because they are probably using some software at work that they can not get at home. Using a locked down device at home is not going to turn people into drooling morons any more or less than they already are. The one thing that would be lost if tablets like the iPad or similar Android devices became the primary device at home is that children would not have a system they could learn the inner workings of, explore on and being to learn to create on. I'm talking about learning programming, not drawing or related artistic activities.