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This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definitely have control over whether someone is biased against me because I haven't kept up with technical developments.

halite 11y ago
> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...
- zippergz 11y ago
  No. I really, really wish it weren't what weekends were for. Believe me. And I don't spend all of my weekends doing projects like that. But the reality of the industry is that not being up to date on technologies handicaps you in a job search. So as long as my day job isn't providing me the opportunities to learn these things, I feel like I have no choice but to use my spare time to do it myself.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have to spend time outside of work on keeping our skills sharp and learning new stuff.
  - underpantsgnome 11y ago
    slacker hat: perspective is one of those words they use when they want something from you, like "duty" or "contribute". Doctors get so much more job security, prestige, and straight-up money than software developers. By the time we're in our 60s, many of our classmates who went into medicine will be living in neighborhoods and moving in social circles that are completely inaccessible to us.
  - halite 11y ago
    Don't you think there's difference between reading about surgeries and performing those surgeries (Or POC surgeries :))? I do get what you are saying, not trying to be mean. What I'm saying is the effort and time commitment to do weekend apps sometime end up taking whole weekends including nights...all because we love doing this.
  - edwinnathaniel 11y ago
    I see this all the time but you can't compare apple (doctor) to orange (software developer). Doctor is more "trustworthy" (perception-wise) as they get older while Developer is more in-demand when they're younger. Doctor also technically made way more money than Developer (in general though, the statement may not stand if you compare Silicon Valley but you get the idea, even in other countries, Doctor probably made more than Developer). Doctor also keep their job longer than Developer. Doctor can read but does not necessarily have to demonstrate that to their prospective employers while Developer can't just say "I read Objective-C for Dummies therefore I am an expert of Objective-C". These were just ones of many things that I can think of.
    - ryandrake 11y ago
      You forgot: Doctors have a strong professional organization that works for them, handles things like certification, keeps the labor supply favorable and wages high. Developers, on the other hand, swallow the "unions are bad" mentality and compete with each other in the usual "labor race to the bottom".
      - ElysianEagle 11y ago
        I wish I could add more, but you've nailed it. Upvoted!
      - gozur88 11y ago
        I don't think the AMA has much affect on employment of older doctors. He's right - older doctors are in demand because they're assumed to have acquired some wisdom along the way. The same is not true of software developers.
  - TuringNYC 11y ago
    I'd be studying all night long if I was a doctor too. You can practice anywhere in the US, choose low-cost-of-living locales where you dont need 15-years worth of salary to buy a home. You have supply tightly controlled by a Board (i.e. cartel.) Wow...if only developers go those types of benefits.
- matwood 11y ago
  > Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times... They are for doing what you want to do. Sometimes I code all weekend for fun, or go in the boat or sleep or play Diablo all day. But the reason why many people on this site are good at what they do is because they love doing it. Even if I was not paid to code, I would still immerse myself in coding (and IT in general). I am fortunate enough to love doing something that also can pay well.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  Definitely not what weekends are for. I've looking over the past 5 years of my life and it fills me with regret at not having a lot of new experiences. I love coding but I'm going to disengage for a bit and find new hobbies. I don't want the highlight of the next 5 years of my life to be Github commits.
- ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
  Realistically it doesn't even have to be done on the weekend per se. Typically averaging about an hour every day learning new stuff should be totally doable on a weekday. As long as you have the drive (motivation can be different - some ppl like to hack, some are worried about their next gig etc) - this shouldn't be a problem.
- Futurebot 11y ago
  We live in an age of forced autodidactism (I personally like it, but we should not expect everyone to) and growing hypercompetition. The Average is Over/Superstar effects, and shrinking number of well-remunerated, non-cognitive, non-high skilled jobs means that anyone that wants to stay ahead (or even in) the game now has to be prepared to train nonstop (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-in-a-career-workers-train-nonstop.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-...) Fair, desirable, optimal? All debatable depending on one's perspective, but unstoppable. I think the only way we'll be able to get a handle on it is to manage its effects through policy (which has to happen eventually, given how many people will be affected, and how few will actually be able to be one of the "superstars"), rather than turning this train around.
zippergz 11y ago
Also, to be clear. I think that having many years of experience, hard-won judgement, really strong foundations, and experience with a variety of technologies (even if they aren't the newest) SHOULD be enough to be seriously considered for a job. Someone who has been in the industry for 20 years and knows a bunch of languages and frameworks is most likely going to be able to pick up a new one quickly. And he or she will bring with them experience that a younger programmer with more knowledge of some specific new technology can't provide. In a perfect world, companies would understand that, and take it into account when they're hiring. But in reality, that doesn't always happen, and all I can do to prevent myself from being impacted by it is make sure I have the right keywords on my resume, along side my years and years of experience.
- dasil003 11y ago
  At 37 I'm somewhere in the middle and I think there are two major factors at play in terms of SV age bias. The first is a proliferation of young founders who have no experience and thus no frame of reference to evaluate older developers, so they just pattern match on the new tech they are familiar with. Nothing really to be done about that since convincing twentysomethings (particularly SV funded ones) of their hubris is a sisyphean task, and in any case it leaves talent on the table for those of us who actually know the value of a dollar. The second, more troubling factor is founders who actually understand the value of experience, but prefer to take advantage of ambitious kids who are willing to work extreme hours for little equity and less salary. All else being equal, it's easier to find strong talent that isn't aware of (or bad at negotiating) their own value at a young age compared to when they get old and jaded. As slimy as that is, I think it's a somewhat self-correcting problem in that good programmers are still too thin on the ground and startups who pass over old or minority candidates that are actually good will be at a competitive disadvantage. There is certainly a flood of young people going into technology via bootcamps or other means, but my experience so far is that there is a natural and unquantifiable talent component to being a good programmer which can not be solved by education. I firmly believe anyone can learn to program, but only a minority can ever learn to program well. At the moment, I interpret having learned to program before "startups" became a career move as a strong positive signal; chalk one up for the olds!

halite 11y ago

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

zippergz 11y ago
No. I really, really wish it weren't what weekends were for. Believe me. And I don't spend all of my weekends doing projects like that. But the reality of the industry is that not being up to date on technologies handicaps you in a job search. So as long as my day job isn't providing me the opportunities to learn these things, I feel like I have no choice but to use my spare time to do it myself.
enraged_camel 11y ago
My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have to spend time outside of work on keeping our skills sharp and learning new stuff.
- underpantsgnome 11y ago
  slacker hat: perspective is one of those words they use when they want something from you, like "duty" or "contribute". Doctors get so much more job security, prestige, and straight-up money than software developers. By the time we're in our 60s, many of our classmates who went into medicine will be living in neighborhoods and moving in social circles that are completely inaccessible to us.
- halite 11y ago
  Don't you think there's difference between reading about surgeries and performing those surgeries (Or POC surgeries :))? I do get what you are saying, not trying to be mean. What I'm saying is the effort and time commitment to do weekend apps sometime end up taking whole weekends including nights...all because we love doing this.
- edwinnathaniel 11y ago
  I see this all the time but you can't compare apple (doctor) to orange (software developer). Doctor is more "trustworthy" (perception-wise) as they get older while Developer is more in-demand when they're younger. Doctor also technically made way more money than Developer (in general though, the statement may not stand if you compare Silicon Valley but you get the idea, even in other countries, Doctor probably made more than Developer). Doctor also keep their job longer than Developer. Doctor can read but does not necessarily have to demonstrate that to their prospective employers while Developer can't just say "I read Objective-C for Dummies therefore I am an expert of Objective-C". These were just ones of many things that I can think of.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    You forgot: Doctors have a strong professional organization that works for them, handles things like certification, keeps the labor supply favorable and wages high. Developers, on the other hand, swallow the "unions are bad" mentality and compete with each other in the usual "labor race to the bottom".
    - ElysianEagle 11y ago
      I wish I could add more, but you've nailed it. Upvoted!
    - gozur88 11y ago
      I don't think the AMA has much affect on employment of older doctors. He's right - older doctors are in demand because they're assumed to have acquired some wisdom along the way. The same is not true of software developers.
- TuringNYC 11y ago
  I'd be studying all night long if I was a doctor too. You can practice anywhere in the US, choose low-cost-of-living locales where you dont need 15-years worth of salary to buy a home. You have supply tightly controlled by a Board (i.e. cartel.) Wow...if only developers go those types of benefits.
matwood 11y ago
> Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times... They are for doing what you want to do. Sometimes I code all weekend for fun, or go in the boat or sleep or play Diablo all day. But the reason why many people on this site are good at what they do is because they love doing it. Even if I was not paid to code, I would still immerse myself in coding (and IT in general). I am fortunate enough to love doing something that also can pay well.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
stuxnet79 11y ago
Definitely not what weekends are for. I've looking over the past 5 years of my life and it fills me with regret at not having a lot of new experiences. I love coding but I'm going to disengage for a bit and find new hobbies. I don't want the highlight of the next 5 years of my life to be Github commits.
ChemicalWarfare 11y ago
Realistically it doesn't even have to be done on the weekend per se. Typically averaging about an hour every day learning new stuff should be totally doable on a weekday. As long as you have the drive (motivation can be different - some ppl like to hack, some are worried about their next gig etc) - this shouldn't be a problem.
Futurebot 11y ago
We live in an age of forced autodidactism (I personally like it, but we should not expect everyone to) and growing hypercompetition. The Average is Over/Superstar effects, and shrinking number of well-remunerated, non-cognitive, non-high skilled jobs means that anyone that wants to stay ahead (or even in) the game now has to be prepared to train nonstop (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-in-a-career-workers-train-nonstop.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-...) Fair, desirable, optimal? All debatable depending on one's perspective, but unstoppable. I think the only way we'll be able to get a handle on it is to manage its effects through policy (which has to happen eventually, given how many people will be affected, and how few will actually be able to be one of the "superstars"), rather than turning this train around.

zippergz 11y ago

Also, to be clear. I think that having many years of experience, hard-won judgement, really strong foundations, and experience with a variety of technologies (even if they aren't the newest) SHOULD be enough to be seriously considered for a job. Someone who has been in the industry for 20 years and knows a bunch of languages and frameworks is most likely going to be able to pick up a new one quickly. And he or she will bring with them experience that a younger programmer with more knowledge of some specific new technology can't provide. In a perfect world, companies would understand that, and take it into account when they're hiring. But in reality, that doesn't always happen, and all I can do to prevent myself from being impacted by it is make sure I have the right keywords on my resume, along side my years and years of experience.

dasil003 11y ago
At 37 I'm somewhere in the middle and I think there are two major factors at play in terms of SV age bias. The first is a proliferation of young founders who have no experience and thus no frame of reference to evaluate older developers, so they just pattern match on the new tech they are familiar with. Nothing really to be done about that since convincing twentysomethings (particularly SV funded ones) of their hubris is a sisyphean task, and in any case it leaves talent on the table for those of us who actually know the value of a dollar. The second, more troubling factor is founders who actually understand the value of experience, but prefer to take advantage of ambitious kids who are willing to work extreme hours for little equity and less salary. All else being equal, it's easier to find strong talent that isn't aware of (or bad at negotiating) their own value at a young age compared to when they get old and jaded. As slimy as that is, I think it's a somewhat self-correcting problem in that good programmers are still too thin on the ground and startups who pass over old or minority candidates that are actually good will be at a competitive disadvantage. There is certainly a flood of young people going into technology via bootcamps or other means, but my experience so far is that there is a natural and unquantifiable talent component to being a good programmer which can not be solved by education. I firmly believe anyone can learn to program, but only a minority can ever learn to program well. At the moment, I interpret having learned to program before "startups" became a career move as a strong positive signal; chalk one up for the olds!