7 ms·

Overpaying to save some endangered species, and barely funding others

52 points by shawndumas 11y ago

dintech 11y ago
I thought this was going to be about COBOL. :)
PaulHoule 11y ago
It's the same with diseases. I meet some guy I was a grad student with he tells me he is working on cures for cancer at his startup and I think he's a Poseur, now if he was working to cure Tourette's syndrome I'd take him seriously. Joe Biden has a personal reason to advance Nixon's "War on Cancer", but let's see a government or private effort to cure chronic pain -- it is such a tragedy to see people dying left and right from opioid addiction which comes from a lack of safe and effective treatment for non-cancer pain. You can go after it after the fact with addiction treatment, law enforcement, etc. but it is much better to catch that horse before it leaves the barn.
- daxfohl 11y ago
  Yeah, I remember reading an article about AIDS being the hip, high-investment disease in Africa, while diarrhea kills way more people.
  - redthrowaway 11y ago
    Cynically, AIDS leaves Africa. Diarrhea doesn't.
    - daxfohl 11y ago
      It left India for me. Fwiw Vietnam too 10 years later. Some people never learn. (I get what you were getting at tbough)
- sosuke 11y ago
  Chronic pain, fibromyalgia, chronic uticaria, essential tremors. Every week my great aunt looks for some news about essential tremors. Extremely common, affects walk, hands, throat, sometimes head movements. All there is to treat is deep brain stimulation, or treat the symptoms with stuff like beta blockers. Giant hammers but no looking into the underlying causes. We know so little.
- CWuestefeld 11y ago
  This is always going to happen given the nature of democracy. For afflictions that have a well-defined demographic (HIV, breast cancer) you get an easily-organized voting bloc, and diffuse costs across a broad population. But when the afflicted are themselves more diverse, it's much more difficult to mount the same activism. I don't mean to get political, but this is a danger of governmental involvement in health care. Given scarcity of resources, it's necessary to prioritize their allocation. Somebody's got to decide where that funding goes, and this is the kernel of truth that was exaggerated into the "death panel" meme.
  - PaulHoule 11y ago
    Private organizations can feel the pinch from activists too. I think also some groups are better or worse at marketing and/or lucky vs unlucky. For instance, diabetes is a diverse condition and the American Diabetes Association is right up there with the Breast Cancer Industrial Complex. We even see medical clinics in our area that are working pretty hard to figure out how to treat medicare patients with that condition both properly and effectively even though it has taken a long time. So far as politics goes, chronic pain is connected strongly with disability and pushing it back could get a lot of people off disability and back in the workforce again.
giarc 11y ago
I always think of panda's when talking/reading about endangered species. They likely receive an incredible amount of funding and effort to save the species. I wonder if the goal is to save the national symbol rather than to save the species.
- patio11 11y ago
  A useful phrase to know if you want to read up on this topic: "charismatic megafauna." It is well-discussed in the literature.
  - giarc 11y ago
    Interesting, summed up nicely in this line from the wiki page "By directing public attention to the diminishing numbers of giant panda due to habitat loss, for example, conservation groups can raise support for the protection of the panda and for the entire ecosystem of which it is a part." With the last few words being key. Thanks for letting me know about that topic.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
danso 11y ago
I don't know if the study's author has a link to her compiled data but I was curious to see if the data was easily available officially...and it turns out there's a convenient (convenient, if you know how to scrape and parse PDF tables) list here: http://www.fws.gov/Endangered/esa-library/index.html http://www.fws.gov/Endangered/esa-library/index.html
sosuke 11y ago
It takes constant fighting to prompt saving a single species. Take a look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocercus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocercus for instance. They are endangered by husbandry and mineral mining which both have deep pockets. Most of the population isn't an issue. The Sage-grouse had a PBS special made out of it even. I think that makes a big difference to make a detailed documentary of the life cycle of endangered species. Spreading the money out evenly would doom them all I bet.
- eru 11y ago
  > Spreading the money out evenly would doom them all I bet. People can answer that question with science. (And no one argued for spreading the money out equally. The argument is for a cleverer more effective use.)
sremani 11y ago
Pricenomics, everything is bullshit book had this problem described, where cute-species get the love and not so cute ones even though more endangered and vital to eco system, do not get love and subsequent funding. That is why WWF has a Panda, cute animal vs. some smelly weird looking frog.
- dankohn1 11y ago
  The technical term is charismatic megafauna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_megafauna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_megafauna
- mrob 11y ago
  But whales get a lot of support, and whales are not very cute. They have tiny eyes compared to their head, and eye:head ratio is probably the most important factor for determining cuteness. And humpback whales, one of the most popular species, have ugly tubercles on their skin which you'd probably mistake for a disease if you didn't know better. There must be more to popularity than just cuteness.
  - nibs 11y ago
    I think you could shorthand cuteness to what it causes, which is joy. And whales cause joy when you watch them because of their unique size (large) and temperament. So whales get love where poisonous frogs with giant eyes might not.
    - eru 11y ago
      And frogs are still on the charismatic end of the spectrum, compared to mites and insects.
  - munificent 11y ago
    Whales: * Sing songs to each other * Are graceful, gentle giants * Most are herbivores so don't kill other cute stuff * Are famously intelligent * Raise their young, live in groups, and communicate socially They may not be cute, but they have a lot of appealing characteristics and few unappealing ones. The bumps are a little funny looking, but they just make whales look like giant pickles to me.
tomahunt 11y ago
There must be many groups like this these days. There's one large lab I know [1] where they use a pile of statistics, modelling and optimisation to investigate these types of problems. Maybe check out the publications of the group leader [2]. [1] http://www.possinghamlab.org/ http://www.possinghamlab.org/ [2] https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=lSYOB3cAAAAJ&hl=en https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=lSYOB3cAAAAJ&hl...
jonah 11y ago
My uncle works with the endangered Desert Tortoise in the Mojave. It's big and it's an indicator species. There are these conservation contractors who primarily do two kinds of work: 1) Study the tortoise population in an area. They walk grids in the desert locating all the individuals. They take their vitals in situ, tag them and possibly affix a radio transmitter and leave them in place to re-find again at a later date. This gives them of how the individuals and population is doing over time. 2) They find and relocate tortoises prior to large development projects in the desert. They did this for the Ivanpah solar plant on the 15 near the CA/NV border and for the expansion of Fort Irwin's bombing range. The animals they find here are captured and moved to another location they've selected in the area. The teams he works on are probably 6-10 people who spend several months at a time in the spring and fall when the weather is acceptable living out in the desert doing this work. They make software engineer money doing this.
- cbsmith 11y ago
  > They make software engineer money doing this. You say like that is a bad/surprising thing.
  - nickff 11y ago
    My take-away from the parent post is that some people are extracting monopoly rents from 'conservation' efforts, and this waste is partially responsible for neglect of other endangered species.
    - cbsmith 11y ago
      ...and so you are saying that software engineers should be extracting monopoly rents, but conservationists shouldn't? (I'm not sure I'd agree with either point.) As the article points out, this is the least of our worries.
      - nickff 11y ago
        Oh, I don't think (any kind of) engineers should be entitled to extract monopoly rents, which is why I am against all (or almost all) occupational licensing. The concern which the (great-grand-) parent brings up is that a great deal of money is being spent on 'conservation' efforts which may be a poor allocation of limited resources that could be better used (to protect a greater variety of more endagered species).
machbio 11y ago
I had a similar viewpoint about indian government funding the tiger reserves to preserve the last few knowns tigers - but I was told by a range officer (people who work at forest) that this preserving tiger plays into the hands of the Food Chain and there by preserving the eco-system as a whole.. Hence, I dont think its fair to say you are funding only endangered species but you are funding for the eco-system..

52 points by shawndumas 11y ago

I thought this was going to be about COBOL. :)

It's the same with diseases. I meet some guy I was a grad student with he tells me he is working on cures for cancer at his startup and I think he's a Poseur, now if he was working to cure Tourette's syndrome I'd take him seriously. Joe Biden has a personal reason to advance Nixon's "War on Cancer", but let's see a government or private effort to cure chronic pain -- it is such a tragedy to see people dying left and right from opioid addiction which comes from a lack of safe and effective treatment for non-cancer pain. You can go after it after the fact with addiction treatment, law enforcement, etc. but it is much better to catch that horse before it leaves the barn.

daxfohl 11y ago
Yeah, I remember reading an article about AIDS being the hip, high-investment disease in Africa, while diarrhea kills way more people.
- redthrowaway 11y ago
  Cynically, AIDS leaves Africa. Diarrhea doesn't.
  - daxfohl 11y ago
    It left India for me. Fwiw Vietnam too 10 years later. Some people never learn. (I get what you were getting at tbough)
sosuke 11y ago
Chronic pain, fibromyalgia, chronic uticaria, essential tremors. Every week my great aunt looks for some news about essential tremors. Extremely common, affects walk, hands, throat, sometimes head movements. All there is to treat is deep brain stimulation, or treat the symptoms with stuff like beta blockers. Giant hammers but no looking into the underlying causes. We know so little.
CWuestefeld 11y ago
This is always going to happen given the nature of democracy. For afflictions that have a well-defined demographic (HIV, breast cancer) you get an easily-organized voting bloc, and diffuse costs across a broad population. But when the afflicted are themselves more diverse, it's much more difficult to mount the same activism. I don't mean to get political, but this is a danger of governmental involvement in health care. Given scarcity of resources, it's necessary to prioritize their allocation. Somebody's got to decide where that funding goes, and this is the kernel of truth that was exaggerated into the "death panel" meme.
- PaulHoule 11y ago
  Private organizations can feel the pinch from activists too. I think also some groups are better or worse at marketing and/or lucky vs unlucky. For instance, diabetes is a diverse condition and the American Diabetes Association is right up there with the Breast Cancer Industrial Complex. We even see medical clinics in our area that are working pretty hard to figure out how to treat medicare patients with that condition both properly and effectively even though it has taken a long time. So far as politics goes, chronic pain is connected strongly with disability and pushing it back could get a lot of people off disability and back in the workforce again.

giarc 11y ago

I always think of panda's when talking/reading about endangered species. They likely receive an incredible amount of funding and effort to save the species. I wonder if the goal is to save the national symbol rather than to save the species.

patio11 11y ago
A useful phrase to know if you want to read up on this topic: "charismatic megafauna." It is well-discussed in the literature.
- giarc 11y ago
  Interesting, summed up nicely in this line from the wiki page "By directing public attention to the diminishing numbers of giant panda due to habitat loss, for example, conservation groups can raise support for the protection of the panda and for the entire ecosystem of which it is a part." With the last few words being key. Thanks for letting me know about that topic.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

danso 11y ago

I don't know if the study's author has a link to her compiled data but I was curious to see if the data was easily available officially...and it turns out there's a convenient (convenient, if you know how to scrape and parse PDF tables) list here: http://www.fws.gov/Endangered/esa-library/index.html http://www.fws.gov/Endangered/esa-library/index.html

sosuke 11y ago

It takes constant fighting to prompt saving a single species. Take a look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocercus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocercus for instance. They are endangered by husbandry and mineral mining which both have deep pockets. Most of the population isn't an issue. The Sage-grouse had a PBS special made out of it even. I think that makes a big difference to make a detailed documentary of the life cycle of endangered species. Spreading the money out evenly would doom them all I bet.

eru 11y ago
> Spreading the money out evenly would doom them all I bet. People can answer that question with science. (And no one argued for spreading the money out equally. The argument is for a cleverer more effective use.)

sremani 11y ago

Pricenomics, everything is bullshit book had this problem described, where cute-species get the love and not so cute ones even though more endangered and vital to eco system, do not get love and subsequent funding. That is why WWF has a Panda, cute animal vs. some smelly weird looking frog.

dankohn1 11y ago
The technical term is charismatic megafauna. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_megafauna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_megafauna
mrob 11y ago
But whales get a lot of support, and whales are not very cute. They have tiny eyes compared to their head, and eye:head ratio is probably the most important factor for determining cuteness. And humpback whales, one of the most popular species, have ugly tubercles on their skin which you'd probably mistake for a disease if you didn't know better. There must be more to popularity than just cuteness.
- nibs 11y ago
  I think you could shorthand cuteness to what it causes, which is joy. And whales cause joy when you watch them because of their unique size (large) and temperament. So whales get love where poisonous frogs with giant eyes might not.
  - eru 11y ago
    And frogs are still on the charismatic end of the spectrum, compared to mites and insects.
- munificent 11y ago
  Whales: * Sing songs to each other * Are graceful, gentle giants * Most are herbivores so don't kill other cute stuff * Are famously intelligent * Raise their young, live in groups, and communicate socially They may not be cute, but they have a lot of appealing characteristics and few unappealing ones. The bumps are a little funny looking, but they just make whales look like giant pickles to me.

tomahunt 11y ago

There must be many groups like this these days. There's one large lab I know [1] where they use a pile of statistics, modelling and optimisation to investigate these types of problems. Maybe check out the publications of the group leader [2]. [1] http://www.possinghamlab.org/ http://www.possinghamlab.org/ [2] https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=lSYOB3cAAAAJ&hl=en https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=lSYOB3cAAAAJ&hl...

jonah 11y ago

My uncle works with the endangered Desert Tortoise in the Mojave. It's big and it's an indicator species. There are these conservation contractors who primarily do two kinds of work: 1) Study the tortoise population in an area. They walk grids in the desert locating all the individuals. They take their vitals in situ, tag them and possibly affix a radio transmitter and leave them in place to re-find again at a later date. This gives them of how the individuals and population is doing over time. 2) They find and relocate tortoises prior to large development projects in the desert. They did this for the Ivanpah solar plant on the 15 near the CA/NV border and for the expansion of Fort Irwin's bombing range. The animals they find here are captured and moved to another location they've selected in the area. The teams he works on are probably 6-10 people who spend several months at a time in the spring and fall when the weather is acceptable living out in the desert doing this work. They make software engineer money doing this.

cbsmith 11y ago
> They make software engineer money doing this. You say like that is a bad/surprising thing.
- nickff 11y ago
  My take-away from the parent post is that some people are extracting monopoly rents from 'conservation' efforts, and this waste is partially responsible for neglect of other endangered species.
  - cbsmith 11y ago
    ...and so you are saying that software engineers should be extracting monopoly rents, but conservationists shouldn't? (I'm not sure I'd agree with either point.) As the article points out, this is the least of our worries.
    - nickff 11y ago
      Oh, I don't think (any kind of) engineers should be entitled to extract monopoly rents, which is why I am against all (or almost all) occupational licensing. The concern which the (great-grand-) parent brings up is that a great deal of money is being spent on 'conservation' efforts which may be a poor allocation of limited resources that could be better used (to protect a greater variety of more endagered species).

machbio 11y ago

I had a similar viewpoint about indian government funding the tiger reserves to preserve the last few knowns tigers - but I was told by a range officer (people who work at forest) that this preserving tiger plays into the hands of the Food Chain and there by preserving the eco-system as a whole.. Hence, I dont think its fair to say you are funding only endangered species but you are funding for the eco-system..