6 ms·

To all people saying "We should add some link to the news because I don't know who Andy Grove was". C'mon, this is the community of people who don't need to hav

by krzrak 11y ago

To all people saying "We should add some link to the news because I don't know who Andy Grove was". C'mon, this is the community of people who don't need to have everything delivered on the silver plate - either you know, or you spend a while and find out by yourself. That's something we do every day.

dkersten 11y ago
I saw the black bar and thought "huh, who died?". I then briefly scanned the front page, saw that someone called Andy Grove had died. It took two seconds to do a Google search and I had my answer. Its really not very difficult (or time consuming) to find out who it is.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  > I saw the black bar and thought "huh, who died?" It's highly selective though. There are some great Hackers who have passed away recently and get no black bar at all. I guess you don't want to do it every single day, but then why do it at all ?
  - krapp 11y ago
    That's the biggest problem with the black bar in a status-conscious community like HN - it unintentionally becomes a prize. Certain deaths earn it, other deaths don't.
    - jotux 11y ago
      A prize for whom? The dead people?
      - krapp 11y ago
        Yes.
    - mathgeek 11y ago
      I highly doubt anyone in any HN-related community is living their life hoping to get a black bar for a day.
      - krapp 11y ago
        It's not much of a prize, but the fact that it goes up for some tech-related deaths and not others makes it a de facto posthumous award, whether it's intended to be or not. People inevitably talk about how someone "deserves" the black bar, as if it should be something earned and not given.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      We're status-conscious? I have to say that has never actually occurred to me.
- faehnrich 11y ago
  Oh, I saw the black bar and wondered, didn't make the connection it was for someone that died.
  - dkersten 11y ago
    I suppose if you haven't seen it before, there's no way of knowing it.
sdegutis 11y ago
Or, alternatively, we could just get off HN and get some work done. What's that you say? But I'm writing this on HN? Oh right, er, uh.. /me takes his own advice and closes HN.
robgibbons 11y ago
It might make sense to add an "alt" attribute with a name to the bar, or perhaps a small link in memorial.
- cgallello 11y ago
  Accessibility tip - you're probably thinking of the "title" attribute. Agreed though.
  - ndarilek 11y ago
    Actually, probably better, aria-label: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/ https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-ti... Edit: FWIW I as a blind user didn't notice the bar. Glad this story pointed it out. Kind of wish HN would update its layout to be more accessible. There are a ton of aspects of HN that are entirely unusable or painful--no easy way to navigate comments by thread, no accessible indication of downvote status, no easy accessible way to scan the front page other than pressing tab 6-7 times to navigate between entry titles... I suppose some of that isn't a huge deal--I just don't notice or care about downvotes and speak my mind (within reason) as a result--but the whole tabbing half a dozen times to hear each new headline is a bit ridiculous. Anyhow, sorry to derail the black bar discussion. Respects to the deceased, but I'd still like to see HN become more accessible and inclusive. When you literally can't notice things like this then they become aspects of a community you aren't included in.
    - digitalengineer 11y ago
      Agreed! The 'up' / 'down' vote arrows are really too small for 'not-jet-disabled' (or regular) users and I'd them test to see if two arrows placed next to each other would be more usable. Another one: comments. I usually read the comments first but clicking that on mobile is hard as well...
    - e12e 11y ago
      > Anyhow, sorry to derail the black bar discussion. IMNHO Not at all! Just like I love the fact that someone that didn't realize the meaning of the bar, simply asked (and so helped others figured it out), I love your input on accessibility. I'm sure I'm not the only one that hadn't considered the accessibility implications of such "semantic" style/design choices. FWIW, I think it's a bit crazy to use a table with a 1px image and background colour (if I'm reading the source right?), when a "border-top: thick solid black" would do the trick. But then again, HN does stick to a strict 90s table-layout. That still leaves out the question of where/how to communicate the change to those that are vision impaired. I wish development of the HN code was a bit more open - as far as I know, the current code, has evolved[1] a bit from what's currently readily accessible as FOSS[0] -- but doing something with the layout to help accessibility while still staying true to the spirit of HN really shouldn't be that hard. And I'm sure the result would be greatly helped by some of HN readers that are able to do the change themselves, for themselves. As for general accessibility, I think everyone would want vote-buttons that work (I'm using vimperator, so on Desktop, it doesn't really matter if the arrows are invisible on a big monitor - I just know that the "first" link-hint is "up", and the second is "down", indications of which way one voted (and a grace period to change/cancel), and a way to hide threads. The latter is especially useful if the first comment on a story is a controversial tangent. As for the black bar: Having those that change the bar submit a story at the same time (eg: the "Andy Glover has died"-story that was on the front page earlier), and have the bar link to the HN submission might not be a bad idea. We sadly live in a time where it might not be obvious, even in a relatively small community, for who or what the black bar express sympathy. [0] "Anarki: a publicly modifiable 'wiki-like' fork of Arc Lisp (http://www.paulgraham.com/arc.html)" http://www.paulgraham.com/arc.html)" https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki [1] "Ask HN: Is the Hacker News Team Actively Developing Arc?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11240350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11240350
Someone1234 11y ago
Except it COULD have been a black bar for Brussels. In fact I've just arbitrarily decided that it is, because there is no official word either way. If I go off and do research into what happened today Brussels makes just as much or as little sense as Andy Grove. Both are on the front page. Anyone who disagrees needs to show me why it is an Andy Grove bar instead of a Brussels bar? And, yes, I am intentionally being obstinate to make a point.
- skimmas 11y ago
  Or you can take the "for whom the bell tolls approach"
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- patrickread 11y ago
  I noticed it on here last night (ET) between news of Grove's death and the Brussels bombing. Not trying to be pedantic, but it definitely seems to be in honor of Andy Grove.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    I didn't. I got to work this morning and saw it. It easily could have been either.
- devteambravo 11y ago
  Pretty simple really. The black bar is for tech related losses. Otherwise, the black bar would be there everyday.
- orthoganol 11y ago
  Given that terrorist bombings like Brussels happen with much greater frequency in other parts of the world, do you really think HN will only choose to 'mourn' when it happens to a Western European country? It's for Andy.

by krzrak 11y ago

dkersten 11y ago

I saw the black bar and thought "huh, who died?". I then briefly scanned the front page, saw that someone called Andy Grove had died. It took two seconds to do a Google search and I had my answer. Its really not very difficult (or time consuming) to find out who it is.

ekianjo 11y ago
> I saw the black bar and thought "huh, who died?" It's highly selective though. There are some great Hackers who have passed away recently and get no black bar at all. I guess you don't want to do it every single day, but then why do it at all ?
- krapp 11y ago
  That's the biggest problem with the black bar in a status-conscious community like HN - it unintentionally becomes a prize. Certain deaths earn it, other deaths don't.
  - jotux 11y ago
    A prize for whom? The dead people?
    - krapp 11y ago
      Yes.
  - mathgeek 11y ago
    I highly doubt anyone in any HN-related community is living their life hoping to get a black bar for a day.
    - krapp 11y ago
      It's not much of a prize, but the fact that it goes up for some tech-related deaths and not others makes it a de facto posthumous award, whether it's intended to be or not. People inevitably talk about how someone "deserves" the black bar, as if it should be something earned and not given.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    We're status-conscious? I have to say that has never actually occurred to me.
faehnrich 11y ago
Oh, I saw the black bar and wondered, didn't make the connection it was for someone that died.
- dkersten 11y ago
  I suppose if you haven't seen it before, there's no way of knowing it.

sdegutis 11y ago

Or, alternatively, we could just get off HN and get some work done. What's that you say? But I'm writing this on HN? Oh right, er, uh.. /me takes his own advice and closes HN.

robgibbons 11y ago

It might make sense to add an "alt" attribute with a name to the bar, or perhaps a small link in memorial.

cgallello 11y ago
Accessibility tip - you're probably thinking of the "title" attribute. Agreed though.
- ndarilek 11y ago
  Actually, probably better, aria-label: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/ https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-ti... Edit: FWIW I as a blind user didn't notice the bar. Glad this story pointed it out. Kind of wish HN would update its layout to be more accessible. There are a ton of aspects of HN that are entirely unusable or painful--no easy way to navigate comments by thread, no accessible indication of downvote status, no easy accessible way to scan the front page other than pressing tab 6-7 times to navigate between entry titles... I suppose some of that isn't a huge deal--I just don't notice or care about downvotes and speak my mind (within reason) as a result--but the whole tabbing half a dozen times to hear each new headline is a bit ridiculous. Anyhow, sorry to derail the black bar discussion. Respects to the deceased, but I'd still like to see HN become more accessible and inclusive. When you literally can't notice things like this then they become aspects of a community you aren't included in.
  - digitalengineer 11y ago
    Agreed! The 'up' / 'down' vote arrows are really too small for 'not-jet-disabled' (or regular) users and I'd them test to see if two arrows placed next to each other would be more usable. Another one: comments. I usually read the comments first but clicking that on mobile is hard as well...
  - e12e 11y ago
    > Anyhow, sorry to derail the black bar discussion. IMNHO Not at all! Just like I love the fact that someone that didn't realize the meaning of the bar, simply asked (and so helped others figured it out), I love your input on accessibility. I'm sure I'm not the only one that hadn't considered the accessibility implications of such "semantic" style/design choices. FWIW, I think it's a bit crazy to use a table with a 1px image and background colour (if I'm reading the source right?), when a "border-top: thick solid black" would do the trick. But then again, HN does stick to a strict 90s table-layout. That still leaves out the question of where/how to communicate the change to those that are vision impaired. I wish development of the HN code was a bit more open - as far as I know, the current code, has evolved[1] a bit from what's currently readily accessible as FOSS[0] -- but doing something with the layout to help accessibility while still staying true to the spirit of HN really shouldn't be that hard. And I'm sure the result would be greatly helped by some of HN readers that are able to do the change themselves, for themselves. As for general accessibility, I think everyone would want vote-buttons that work (I'm using vimperator, so on Desktop, it doesn't really matter if the arrows are invisible on a big monitor - I just know that the "first" link-hint is "up", and the second is "down", indications of which way one voted (and a grace period to change/cancel), and a way to hide threads. The latter is especially useful if the first comment on a story is a controversial tangent. As for the black bar: Having those that change the bar submit a story at the same time (eg: the "Andy Glover has died"-story that was on the front page earlier), and have the bar link to the HN submission might not be a bad idea. We sadly live in a time where it might not be obvious, even in a relatively small community, for who or what the black bar express sympathy. [0] "Anarki: a publicly modifiable 'wiki-like' fork of Arc Lisp (http://www.paulgraham.com/arc.html)" http://www.paulgraham.com/arc.html)" https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki [1] "Ask HN: Is the Hacker News Team Actively Developing Arc?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11240350 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11240350

Someone1234 11y ago

Except it COULD have been a black bar for Brussels. In fact I've just arbitrarily decided that it is, because there is no official word either way. If I go off and do research into what happened today Brussels makes just as much or as little sense as Andy Grove. Both are on the front page. Anyone who disagrees needs to show me why it is an Andy Grove bar instead of a Brussels bar? And, yes, I am intentionally being obstinate to make a point.

skimmas 11y ago
Or you can take the "for whom the bell tolls approach"
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
patrickread 11y ago
I noticed it on here last night (ET) between news of Grove's death and the Brussels bombing. Not trying to be pedantic, but it definitely seems to be in honor of Andy Grove.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  I didn't. I got to work this morning and saw it. It easily could have been either.
devteambravo 11y ago
Pretty simple really. The black bar is for tech related losses. Otherwise, the black bar would be there everyday.
orthoganol 11y ago
Given that terrorist bombings like Brussels happen with much greater frequency in other parts of the world, do you really think HN will only choose to 'mourn' when it happens to a Western European country? It's for Andy.