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> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists A pretty big overstatement. The only cross

> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. If perfection is our standard, then of course the UN and everything else is a failure. Otherwise, the UN is doing this job effectively. > The UN made sense when the security council members had some incentive to use the UN system, but when their foreign policy is to circumvent international law at any opportunity, then its easy for them to sidestep it. Autocratic states ultimately can't work with democratic ones. Its unfair to expect one group to 'follow the rules' and another to go off willy-nilly when it serves them. There's no enforcer here, they're supposed to be voluntarily enforcing themselves and obviously that's not happening. The golden age you imagine never existed. It's always been this way. This is the way the UN, and politics in general, works. I wish it were otherwise and we should work to improve it, but it does work, unless we measure it by the standards of ideals and perfection - and then what human institution (or human being) measures up?

jussij 11y ago
>> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists > A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Russia has never like the fact Ukraine decided to leave the Soviet Union. I suspect the reference to China refers to how China is unilaterally taking ownership of the South China Sea using it military strength, with total disregard to international law. It might also be in reference to how China handles Tibet, or how they are trying to kill democracy in Hong Kong, or maybe how they have their eyes on Taiwan where they claim it is rightfully theirs. > The golden age you imagine never existed. It's always been this way. This is the way the UN, and politics in general, works. I wish it were otherwise and we should work to improve it, but it does work I suspect drzaiusapelord disagrees with you when you say it is working and I would say I tend to agree with him. The modern day UN is nothing more than a very expensive bureaucracy that in reality achieves very little. Maybe it has never worked?
- dgudkov 11y ago
  >Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. This is correct, although it's not so covert. Russia has built in Eastern Ukraine a full-scale army of 40K troops with 600 tanks and thousands of APCs. It sends hundreds of railway cars with military supplies across the border. The army is better equipped and trained than many NATO countries in Europe. At this scale it simply can't be covert, and it's certainly a war.
- vkou 11y ago
  > Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Which is different from US involvement in its sphere of influence how, exactly? Presence of boots on the ground?
  - hackuser 11y ago
    The U.S. has not invaded a neighbor and conquered its territory and people (at least not since the 19th century). There is no comparison. The borders with Mexico and Canada are undefended - Russia's neighbors, by contrast, are begging for NATO forces to protect them.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Russian troops invaded Ukraine, killed thousands (more?) Ukrainians, conquered a large part of its territory and people, and organize, supply, train, and fight along side an open rebellion. I'm not sure what else to call that but invasion and war. The Russian and Ukrainian goernments avoid that term right now because both want a cease fire.
  - jussij 11y ago
    I do realize that Russian troops invaded Ukraine but they are not at war (i.e. war has not been declared). Ask Putin are Russia soldiers in the Ukraine he will say no. Ask him if Russia is supporting fighters in Ukraine with weapons he will say no. Ask him is Russia at war with Ukraine he will say no. That is exactly why the UN is so hopeless. Everyone knows the answer to those questions is YES and Russia is effectively at war with the Ukraine, but all he has to do is deny it. Ukraine has even gone to the UN asking for help, but nothing is done, only because the UN is such a toothless tiger. The big world players, USA, Russia and China do as they please, regardless of what the UN or the rest of the world thinks.
ende 11y ago
>> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists >A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. If perfection is our standard, then of course the UN and everything else is a failure. Otherwise, the UN is doing this job effectively. This is a pretty good point, with nuclear weapons as an alternative explanation.
johnchristopher 11y ago
> > Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists > A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. If perfection is our standard, then of course the UN and everything else is a failure. Otherwise, the UN is doing this job effectively. Well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War There's that 2008 skirmish. Not that I disagree with your post though.
- hackuser 11y ago
  I agree. I was talking about a current war.

jussij 11y ago

>> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists > A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Russia has never like the fact Ukraine decided to leave the Soviet Union. I suspect the reference to China refers to how China is unilaterally taking ownership of the South China Sea using it military strength, with total disregard to international law. It might also be in reference to how China handles Tibet, or how they are trying to kill democracy in Hong Kong, or maybe how they have their eyes on Taiwan where they claim it is rightfully theirs. > The golden age you imagine never existed. It's always been this way. This is the way the UN, and politics in general, works. I wish it were otherwise and we should work to improve it, but it does work I suspect drzaiusapelord disagrees with you when you say it is working and I would say I tend to agree with him. The modern day UN is nothing more than a very expensive bureaucracy that in reality achieves very little. Maybe it has never worked?

dgudkov 11y ago
>Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. This is correct, although it's not so covert. Russia has built in Eastern Ukraine a full-scale army of 40K troops with 600 tanks and thousands of APCs. It sends hundreds of railway cars with military supplies across the border. The army is better equipped and trained than many NATO countries in Europe. At this scale it simply can't be covert, and it's certainly a war.
vkou 11y ago
> Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Which is different from US involvement in its sphere of influence how, exactly? Presence of boots on the ground?
- hackuser 11y ago
  The U.S. has not invaded a neighbor and conquered its territory and people (at least not since the 19th century). There is no comparison. The borders with Mexico and Canada are undefended - Russia's neighbors, by contrast, are begging for NATO forces to protect them.
hackuser 11y ago
> Russia is not at war with Ukraine. Russia is just running a covert action in Ukraine in an attempt to destabilize it's democratically elected government. Russian troops invaded Ukraine, killed thousands (more?) Ukrainians, conquered a large part of its territory and people, and organize, supply, train, and fight along side an open rebellion. I'm not sure what else to call that but invasion and war. The Russian and Ukrainian goernments avoid that term right now because both want a cease fire.
- jussij 11y ago
  I do realize that Russian troops invaded Ukraine but they are not at war (i.e. war has not been declared). Ask Putin are Russia soldiers in the Ukraine he will say no. Ask him if Russia is supporting fighters in Ukraine with weapons he will say no. Ask him is Russia at war with Ukraine he will say no. That is exactly why the UN is so hopeless. Everyone knows the answer to those questions is YES and Russia is effectively at war with the Ukraine, but all he has to do is deny it. Ukraine has even gone to the UN asking for help, but nothing is done, only because the UN is such a toothless tiger. The big world players, USA, Russia and China do as they please, regardless of what the UN or the rest of the world thinks.

ende 11y ago

>> Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists >A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. If perfection is our standard, then of course the UN and everything else is a failure. Otherwise, the UN is doing this job effectively. This is a pretty good point, with nuclear weapons as an alternative explanation.

johnchristopher 11y ago

> > Considering Russia and China are casually annexing territories, its pretty obvious this framework no longer exists > A pretty big overstatement. The only cross-border war between nations I can think of is Russia and Ukraine. If perfection is our standard, then of course the UN and everything else is a failure. Otherwise, the UN is doing this job effectively. Well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War There's that 2008 skirmish. Not that I disagree with your post though.

hackuser 11y ago
I agree. I was talking about a current war.