8 ms·

Being a Female Developer

129 points by crufo 11y ago

domrdy 11y ago
Sorry for being off-topic / ranting, but why do sites feel the need to hijack scrolling behaviour? Is it me or does this make following the text much more difficult? Instantly threw me off reading the rest of the text...
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Yeah, same here :/ I expect scrolling to work one way and scroll by the amount I'm used to, not the amount the author considers good for them. I closed the article after skimming a few sentences, because it was too hard to follow the flow when I couldn't scroll properly.
  - crufo 11y ago
    Hey there - thanks for the feedback, and sorry about that! We're trying to locate the scrolling issue, replicate it, and fix it (thought we already had). Would you mind sharing what your OS/browser are? Thank you!
- crufo 11y ago
  Hey there - thanks for the feedback, and sorry about that! We're trying to locate the scrolling issue, replicate it, and fix it (thought we already had). Would you mind sharing what your OS/browser are? Thank you!
pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
being a male developer: i don't feel the need to continuously point out how i choose to view myself as different and needy.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
I love this piece! So refreshing to read after all the one's that are underhanded, SJW-style feminism. She says focus on mastering programming while working with likeminded people in good environments. Finds that this can get her places. Encourages events to bring other women in tech or help them navigate obstacles but wisely warns against detrimental effects of overdoing gender part. Need more articles like this. Not just realistic but also motivational.
throwawuy222 11y ago
> focus on your craft, because your skills will speak louder than your gender. The post is about her gender. None of it even mentions what she built. Am I a jerk for pointing that out? Because males deal with nitpickers and doubters every day. I have nothing against working hard and against adversity, but I've never understood why there's this dire urgency to treat the nature outcome of social demographics as if its more an important than what value you bring to the table. I don't know why, but it really grinds at me.
LukeB_UK 11y ago
Can we have the link changed to be the Medium post[0] that this is copied from please? The site currently linked hijacks the scroll and has annoying popups trying to get you to subscribe. [0] https://medium.com/art-marketing/being-a-female-developer-6f0dd6692598 https://medium.com/art-marketing/being-a-female-developer-6f...
- atomical 11y ago
  What do you mean by hijacks the scroll?
  - tracker1 11y ago
    There's 12 trackers/widgets according to ghostery, guessing one of them is doing analytics reporting as you scroll, which can be particularly hellacious on mobile.
  - avel 11y ago
    The page seems to have the code described here: http://blog.bassta.bg/2013/05/smooth-page-scrolling-with-tweenmax/ http://blog.bassta.bg/2013/05/smooth-page-scrolling-with-twe... Basically it disables the browser's default scrolling behavior and handles the mouse scrollwheel events by itself via javascript. Which is usually annoying since the new behavior can be different to what the user is accustomed to, and for other reasons as well. You might find some more arguments in discussions like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/47n9ph/psa_dont_use_smooth_scroll_scriptsplugins_on_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/47n9ph/psa_dont_use...
- dang 11y ago
  Ok, we changed to that from http://www.andela.com/blog/being-a-female-developer/ http://www.andela.com/blog/being-a-female-developer/.
  - crufo 11y ago
    Hi Dang - can you please change back to the original link on Andela's blog? The scrolling issue should be fixed now.
arvinsim 11y ago
> Spend weekends and late nights in front of your computer, laying down lines of code, debugging and developing your personal projects. This is the only thing I disagree with. Although this would be good for your career, it does not work for all types of people.
- tracker1 11y ago
  If you're just starting out, and not doing this, you won't get very far, at least not very fast... if just starting out is in school, or out... It takes at least 5 years to master any skill/craft... and even then given the churn in tech, specifically with development, you have to put more in to get to a good point. I don't do as much on my own time as I used to... but I absolutely did for the first decade of my career.
  - craigvn 11y ago
    If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs. But the majority of devs are building reports and doing maintenance for some fortune 500 insurance co, they are doing fine.
    - yoklov 11y ago
      If you're trying to impress with your skills, you should aim to be in the 1st group, rather than the 2nd.
      - Bahamut 11y ago
        While that's true, not everyone is looking for that in their career was the point of the post you replied to. Every person has different career goals.
      - arvinsim 11y ago
        I don't know why you are downvoted. It is just a matter of what you want in your career. To get to the top, you need to put in the extra effort.
madmax96 11y ago
This is the most reasonable thing I've read in a while. I couldn't agree more with the author; very nuanced opinion. Outstanding work. The hijacked scroll was annoying though!
rjzzleep 11y ago
This is decent view, which is extremely rare when it comes to the topic at hand. From my perspective I am a person that throughout the majority of my life has been considered turkish in germany because of my looks, until people get to know my actual heritage. Yet in the US I'm just considered a random white guy. In Germany turkish are not really considered a minority and the degratory terms are overlayed by more and more political correctness (Ausländer, Migrationshintergrund - someone who's parents immigrated sometime in the past, Musel - nowadays it's ok to hate muslims and beard means muslim anyway right). For a long time in my naivity I did not know why I got that special treatment. Why I was the first to blame when something went wrong, and why people would think it's funny when I'd vote for the more complicated Goethe book in German class. Oh you speak very well German may I ask where you learned that? There's plenty research on all the shit you have take when you're a foreigner in Europe. Fun fact, being Romanian or Italian can be just as bad depending on where you are in Germany. When we talk diversity it's a whole different story. Being a white spanish dude in northern Europe can be diverse. Americans in their ignorance will see "just two white caucasian dudes at a conference". I liked being in the US precisely because I'm considered just another white guy. Yet what absolutely utterly pisses me off about american culture is how disengenious it is. Despite having had to spend days at the police station for forgetting my ID or getting assaulted by security guards and then getting sued in the most absurd kangoroo court i've ever been to. Now to get back to the argument, for some reason in the US I have white middle class women, who's parents can just lash out 60k a year for an Ivy league school (an amount most Südländer as they call them will never make in their lifetime) and who haven't had a hint of discrimination in their lifetime tell me that I should keep my mouth shut and just take whatever they say and: "what do you know, you're way too white anyway" - that's the level at which the discussion is happening. I wouldn't even care that much if these people weren't so hell bent in destroying the only safe haven people like me had. I'm not even sure why they're doing it. The only reason I'm at the place in my life I am right now, is because whenever I got back home from all the shit I had to take in school and elsewhere I just went online hung out in IRC and did random stuff. Very few people actually knew me in person. When I'd talk too much shit and not do anything they'd shut me up. Oh you read the dragon book and wrote an LR parser? Now we're talking. There were some lunatics in there, but you know what, it didn't matter. Because whenever I wanted to learn something from them. I was demanding that someone I don't know, devotes his time to me for free. I don't get to make demands in that position, if you think differently something is wrong with you. It's called entitlement. Most discussions are not about women in tech, they're about culture or work etiquette. I'm not saying you can't be actively pissed about it, but they're two different things. I once wore a Jacket at an Erlang conference in DC(I thought that's what they wear in the capitol). It was the most awkward moment in my life in a tech environment.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
nicolethenerd 11y ago
Clicked through to her site, and the tagline is "True && False of two Female Developers"... True && False evaluates to False... so, lies by two female developers? Not a criticism - I get what she meant, but it's amusing.
frogfuzion 11y ago
Good article. Disconcerting that all of the comments are from men though...
- tracker1 11y ago
  I never really look at the gender of the comments, or even look at the pictures, if there are any... I would suspect a lot of people are that way. Once upon a time, I was in IRC having a discussion with someone about the electronic art scene... it was a few months later I discovered the person in question was even a she. This is in particular one of the things that's great about open source, online communications, and github culture... it really doesn't matter your gender, race, or anything else, so long as you make an effort, you'll generally fit in just fine.
- throwawuy222 11y ago
  > Good article. Disconcerting that all of the comments are from men though... How do you know they are men, and why did you bother to check?
wmsiler 11y ago
Unlike most of the other commenters, I'm not a huge fan of this article. From the article, it seems the author hasn't really experienced much, if any, gender discrimination at work. That's great; it really is refreshing to hear stories of women in tech who are judged purely on their merits, as they should be. However, her two takeaways from her experience are, "your skills will speak louder than your gender," and, "to become a female developer, you only have to do what any other smart dev would do...[i.e. work hard]." I think the problem is precisely that many women have found these statements to be false. Many women that are smart devs have gone into the tech sector with good skills, but found that they are still judged unfairly by their gender. The fact that this women hasn't experienced that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist for others. Also, the claim that if you work hard and have good skills, then your gender won't matter has the (probably unintended) implication that if you do find others discriminating against your based on your gender, then you must not have the skills or the work ethic. I really don't know to what extent gender discrimination exists in the tech sector, but I think we should be careful to avoid over generalizing from individual experiences and we should be especially careful not to suggest that discrimination only happens to the developers whose skills aren't good enough to overcome other people's stereotypes.
- profeta 11y ago
  well, on the other hand, the toxic environment you describe would be also weird for men that do not want to participate on it. i still haven't found it on tech (i did when i was working on a news room, and i quit, as did a lot of people of all genders, because toxic is toxic. i will not blame the whole gender/race/religion of the few that throve there, but the individuals)
- mattlondon 11y ago
  Fan or not, increasing awareness of the issue and getting people to become more aware of any unconscious biases they hold is crucial. The fact you're reading it, digesting it, and we're discussing it can only be a positive thing.
- groovy2shoes 11y ago
  I agree. At the same time, I get the feeling that the west coast must be a very different place compared to the east coast. I've worked for six different employers in the tech scene here on the east coast, and I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace. I'm not denying that it happens, because I'm sure that it does. But either it's far more frequent or much more overt in other parts of the world.
mamoswined 11y ago
Honestly having been a "female developer" for 10+ years my main thought on the subject of being that is it's just a job. And it's a job that's really not for everyone. I've tried to sell a lot of people I've worked with in other fields on it, both men and women, and there are a lot of things that keep people away from it. And most of them are not related to gender. I also have learned to have a healthy suspicion of companies that seem too obsessed with the "women in tech" thing. I usually find they seem to just be doing it because out of causes you could pick in tech, it has little downside for the company and even serves as a recruiting tool.
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  I've started to think this as well. I believe people, when confronted with dicks at work, are going to attribute it to something that differentiates them from the majority. Someone made a comment that insults your intelligence? Well they must have said it because you're a woman, black, gay, etc. In reality, I think a lot of us go through similar experiences and attribute its occurrence to different characteristics.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Your point - that some people are dicks and they are dicks to everybody is obviously true. But you seem to miss the point that some people are dicks, but are mostly dicks to women, or black people, or disabled people. They may not realise they're being dicks, but other people will recognise elements of dickishness or outright dickery. And also that fighting the dicks makes life better for everyone. I find it weird that when women say (for example) "We are sexually assaulted so often a separate women only London Underground carriage would be welcome, until law enforcement and society can pressure offenders to stop offending" they are met with hostility and denial, rather than a willingness to try to understand the severity of the problem.
    - atom-morgan 11y ago
      I'm not missing that point at all. But I would ask why is someone being a dick to someone because they don't like their personality or hobbies so significantly different than someone doing the same because of a handicap or skin color? People are going to hate other people for a variety of reasons yet we single out a few and get a little more outraged about it than the others. Concerning your last point - I'd guess they're met with hostility and denial because they legitimately don't believe the issue is as widespread as many are led to believe.
throwaway21816 11y ago
Oh boy another "I worked so hard because im a woman in tech" post. Everyone in tech works hard regardless of gender but some people choose to brag less than others.
glassie 11y ago
Being a Female in general...
sridca 11y ago
I am noticing a clear trend. Why are articles like this less likely to stay in the front page?
- tomp 11y ago
  Because they usually don't have very good/strong arguments for the points they're making, so people find it easy to disagree with them. In addition, most are written as propaganda (not this one though).

129 points by crufo 11y ago

Sorry for being off-topic / ranting, but why do sites feel the need to hijack scrolling behaviour? Is it me or does this make following the text much more difficult? Instantly threw me off reading the rest of the text...

StavrosK 11y ago
Yeah, same here :/ I expect scrolling to work one way and scroll by the amount I'm used to, not the amount the author considers good for them. I closed the article after skimming a few sentences, because it was too hard to follow the flow when I couldn't scroll properly.
- crufo 11y ago
  Hey there - thanks for the feedback, and sorry about that! We're trying to locate the scrolling issue, replicate it, and fix it (thought we already had). Would you mind sharing what your OS/browser are? Thank you!
crufo 11y ago
Hey there - thanks for the feedback, and sorry about that! We're trying to locate the scrolling issue, replicate it, and fix it (thought we already had). Would you mind sharing what your OS/browser are? Thank you!

pg_is_a_butt 11y ago

being a male developer: i don't feel the need to continuously point out how i choose to view myself as different and needy.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

I love this piece! So refreshing to read after all the one's that are underhanded, SJW-style feminism. She says focus on mastering programming while working with likeminded people in good environments. Finds that this can get her places. Encourages events to bring other women in tech or help them navigate obstacles but wisely warns against detrimental effects of overdoing gender part. Need more articles like this. Not just realistic but also motivational.

throwawuy222 11y ago

> focus on your craft, because your skills will speak louder than your gender. The post is about her gender. None of it even mentions what she built. Am I a jerk for pointing that out? Because males deal with nitpickers and doubters every day. I have nothing against working hard and against adversity, but I've never understood why there's this dire urgency to treat the nature outcome of social demographics as if its more an important than what value you bring to the table. I don't know why, but it really grinds at me.

LukeB_UK 11y ago

Can we have the link changed to be the Medium post[0] that this is copied from please? The site currently linked hijacks the scroll and has annoying popups trying to get you to subscribe. [0] https://medium.com/art-marketing/being-a-female-developer-6f0dd6692598 https://medium.com/art-marketing/being-a-female-developer-6f...

atomical 11y ago
What do you mean by hijacks the scroll?
- tracker1 11y ago
  There's 12 trackers/widgets according to ghostery, guessing one of them is doing analytics reporting as you scroll, which can be particularly hellacious on mobile.
- avel 11y ago
  The page seems to have the code described here: http://blog.bassta.bg/2013/05/smooth-page-scrolling-with-tweenmax/ http://blog.bassta.bg/2013/05/smooth-page-scrolling-with-twe... Basically it disables the browser's default scrolling behavior and handles the mouse scrollwheel events by itself via javascript. Which is usually annoying since the new behavior can be different to what the user is accustomed to, and for other reasons as well. You might find some more arguments in discussions like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/47n9ph/psa_dont_use_smooth_scroll_scriptsplugins_on_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/47n9ph/psa_dont_use...
dang 11y ago
Ok, we changed to that from http://www.andela.com/blog/being-a-female-developer/ http://www.andela.com/blog/being-a-female-developer/.
- crufo 11y ago
  Hi Dang - can you please change back to the original link on Andela's blog? The scrolling issue should be fixed now.

arvinsim 11y ago

> Spend weekends and late nights in front of your computer, laying down lines of code, debugging and developing your personal projects. This is the only thing I disagree with. Although this would be good for your career, it does not work for all types of people.

tracker1 11y ago
If you're just starting out, and not doing this, you won't get very far, at least not very fast... if just starting out is in school, or out... It takes at least 5 years to master any skill/craft... and even then given the churn in tech, specifically with development, you have to put more in to get to a good point. I don't do as much on my own time as I used to... but I absolutely did for the first decade of my career.
- craigvn 11y ago
  If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs. But the majority of devs are building reports and doing maintenance for some fortune 500 insurance co, they are doing fine.
  - yoklov 11y ago
    If you're trying to impress with your skills, you should aim to be in the 1st group, rather than the 2nd.
    - Bahamut 11y ago
      While that's true, not everyone is looking for that in their career was the point of the post you replied to. Every person has different career goals.
    - arvinsim 11y ago
      I don't know why you are downvoted. It is just a matter of what you want in your career. To get to the top, you need to put in the extra effort.

madmax96 11y ago

This is the most reasonable thing I've read in a while. I couldn't agree more with the author; very nuanced opinion. Outstanding work. The hijacked scroll was annoying though!

rjzzleep 11y ago

This is decent view, which is extremely rare when it comes to the topic at hand. From my perspective I am a person that throughout the majority of my life has been considered turkish in germany because of my looks, until people get to know my actual heritage. Yet in the US I'm just considered a random white guy. In Germany turkish are not really considered a minority and the degratory terms are overlayed by more and more political correctness (Ausländer, Migrationshintergrund - someone who's parents immigrated sometime in the past, Musel - nowadays it's ok to hate muslims and beard means muslim anyway right). For a long time in my naivity I did not know why I got that special treatment. Why I was the first to blame when something went wrong, and why people would think it's funny when I'd vote for the more complicated Goethe book in German class. Oh you speak very well German may I ask where you learned that? There's plenty research on all the shit you have take when you're a foreigner in Europe. Fun fact, being Romanian or Italian can be just as bad depending on where you are in Germany. When we talk diversity it's a whole different story. Being a white spanish dude in northern Europe can be diverse. Americans in their ignorance will see "just two white caucasian dudes at a conference". I liked being in the US precisely because I'm considered just another white guy. Yet what absolutely utterly pisses me off about american culture is how disengenious it is. Despite having had to spend days at the police station for forgetting my ID or getting assaulted by security guards and then getting sued in the most absurd kangoroo court i've ever been to. Now to get back to the argument, for some reason in the US I have white middle class women, who's parents can just lash out 60k a year for an Ivy league school (an amount most Südländer as they call them will never make in their lifetime) and who haven't had a hint of discrimination in their lifetime tell me that I should keep my mouth shut and just take whatever they say and: "what do you know, you're way too white anyway" - that's the level at which the discussion is happening. I wouldn't even care that much if these people weren't so hell bent in destroying the only safe haven people like me had. I'm not even sure why they're doing it. The only reason I'm at the place in my life I am right now, is because whenever I got back home from all the shit I had to take in school and elsewhere I just went online hung out in IRC and did random stuff. Very few people actually knew me in person. When I'd talk too much shit and not do anything they'd shut me up. Oh you read the dragon book and wrote an LR parser? Now we're talking. There were some lunatics in there, but you know what, it didn't matter. Because whenever I wanted to learn something from them. I was demanding that someone I don't know, devotes his time to me for free. I don't get to make demands in that position, if you think differently something is wrong with you. It's called entitlement. Most discussions are not about women in tech, they're about culture or work etiquette. I'm not saying you can't be actively pissed about it, but they're two different things. I once wore a Jacket at an Erlang conference in DC(I thought that's what they wear in the capitol). It was the most awkward moment in my life in a tech environment.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

nicolethenerd 11y ago

Clicked through to her site, and the tagline is "True && False of two Female Developers"... True && False evaluates to False... so, lies by two female developers? Not a criticism - I get what she meant, but it's amusing.

frogfuzion 11y ago

Good article. Disconcerting that all of the comments are from men though...

tracker1 11y ago
I never really look at the gender of the comments, or even look at the pictures, if there are any... I would suspect a lot of people are that way. Once upon a time, I was in IRC having a discussion with someone about the electronic art scene... it was a few months later I discovered the person in question was even a she. This is in particular one of the things that's great about open source, online communications, and github culture... it really doesn't matter your gender, race, or anything else, so long as you make an effort, you'll generally fit in just fine.
throwawuy222 11y ago
> Good article. Disconcerting that all of the comments are from men though... How do you know they are men, and why did you bother to check?

wmsiler 11y ago

Unlike most of the other commenters, I'm not a huge fan of this article. From the article, it seems the author hasn't really experienced much, if any, gender discrimination at work. That's great; it really is refreshing to hear stories of women in tech who are judged purely on their merits, as they should be. However, her two takeaways from her experience are, "your skills will speak louder than your gender," and, "to become a female developer, you only have to do what any other smart dev would do...[i.e. work hard]." I think the problem is precisely that many women have found these statements to be false. Many women that are smart devs have gone into the tech sector with good skills, but found that they are still judged unfairly by their gender. The fact that this women hasn't experienced that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist for others. Also, the claim that if you work hard and have good skills, then your gender won't matter has the (probably unintended) implication that if you do find others discriminating against your based on your gender, then you must not have the skills or the work ethic. I really don't know to what extent gender discrimination exists in the tech sector, but I think we should be careful to avoid over generalizing from individual experiences and we should be especially careful not to suggest that discrimination only happens to the developers whose skills aren't good enough to overcome other people's stereotypes.

profeta 11y ago
well, on the other hand, the toxic environment you describe would be also weird for men that do not want to participate on it. i still haven't found it on tech (i did when i was working on a news room, and i quit, as did a lot of people of all genders, because toxic is toxic. i will not blame the whole gender/race/religion of the few that throve there, but the individuals)
mattlondon 11y ago
Fan or not, increasing awareness of the issue and getting people to become more aware of any unconscious biases they hold is crucial. The fact you're reading it, digesting it, and we're discussing it can only be a positive thing.
groovy2shoes 11y ago
I agree. At the same time, I get the feeling that the west coast must be a very different place compared to the east coast. I've worked for six different employers in the tech scene here on the east coast, and I've yet to see any sort of gender discrimination in the workplace. I'm not denying that it happens, because I'm sure that it does. But either it's far more frequent or much more overt in other parts of the world.

mamoswined 11y ago

Honestly having been a "female developer" for 10+ years my main thought on the subject of being that is it's just a job. And it's a job that's really not for everyone. I've tried to sell a lot of people I've worked with in other fields on it, both men and women, and there are a lot of things that keep people away from it. And most of them are not related to gender. I also have learned to have a healthy suspicion of companies that seem too obsessed with the "women in tech" thing. I usually find they seem to just be doing it because out of causes you could pick in tech, it has little downside for the company and even serves as a recruiting tool.

atom-morgan 11y ago
I've started to think this as well. I believe people, when confronted with dicks at work, are going to attribute it to something that differentiates them from the majority. Someone made a comment that insults your intelligence? Well they must have said it because you're a woman, black, gay, etc. In reality, I think a lot of us go through similar experiences and attribute its occurrence to different characteristics.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Your point - that some people are dicks and they are dicks to everybody is obviously true. But you seem to miss the point that some people are dicks, but are mostly dicks to women, or black people, or disabled people. They may not realise they're being dicks, but other people will recognise elements of dickishness or outright dickery. And also that fighting the dicks makes life better for everyone. I find it weird that when women say (for example) "We are sexually assaulted so often a separate women only London Underground carriage would be welcome, until law enforcement and society can pressure offenders to stop offending" they are met with hostility and denial, rather than a willingness to try to understand the severity of the problem.
  - atom-morgan 11y ago
    I'm not missing that point at all. But I would ask why is someone being a dick to someone because they don't like their personality or hobbies so significantly different than someone doing the same because of a handicap or skin color? People are going to hate other people for a variety of reasons yet we single out a few and get a little more outraged about it than the others. Concerning your last point - I'd guess they're met with hostility and denial because they legitimately don't believe the issue is as widespread as many are led to believe.

throwaway21816 11y ago

Oh boy another "I worked so hard because im a woman in tech" post. Everyone in tech works hard regardless of gender but some people choose to brag less than others.

glassie 11y ago

Being a Female in general...

sridca 11y ago

I am noticing a clear trend. Why are articles like this less likely to stay in the front page?

tomp 11y ago
Because they usually don't have very good/strong arguments for the points they're making, so people find it easy to disagree with them. In addition, most are written as propaganda (not this one though).