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"The Real ID Act created a national standard for state-issued IDs. Some states initially refused to comply, fearing that the federal government would make a nat

"The Real ID Act created a national standard for state-issued IDs. Some states initially refused to comply, fearing that the federal government would make a national database of citizens." Aren't Social Security numbers precisely that already? Not asking this question facetiously. Genuinely curious as to the distinction here. I just generally assume the federal government has a database of citizens, and perhaps several databases. Not stating a political opinion on this one way or the other; just saying that it seems laughably naive to assume they don't, or that they don't already have the means to create one.

diminoten2 11y ago
You don't have to have a social security card I don't believe.
Jtsummers 11y ago
In theory, yes. Though SSNs aren't unique. Which was a problem for me, though I guess the other holder of my SSN has passed since I haven't had any issues in years.
- jonnathanson 11y ago
  They're not unique? Jesus. I really had no idea. That seems...suboptimal, to say the least. So basically you need to do a vlookup every time you want to know who any given SS is in any particular circumstance. Huh. So ironically enough, this means that social security numbers require a database of citizens in order to be useful identifiers. Unless I'm missing something here. (On the flipside, I suppose you could argue that unique SS ids would be a lot more vulnerable to security risks.)
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    The first 3 represent the location the SSN is issued in. The next 2 are some sort of group identifier. Last 4 are a serial number, issued sequentially. Keeping in mind that they're 9 digit numbers (1 billion possibilities) and the area portion restricts it to 6 digits, the odds of collision are reasonably high. Basically, if more than 1 million people are assigned SSNs in the same "area", you will have a collision. More area numbers are assigned to mitigate this, but there's still a chance. http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm Has some details on the structure of social security numbers. EDIT: Also, even if they were issued as unique serial numbers from the start, once we exceed a total population (not living, but dead and living) of over 1 billion assigned social security numbers, we'd have had collisions anyways.
    - jonnathanson 11y ago
      Fascinating. Thank you!
    - peterwwillis 11y ago
      That was before 2011. Since then they assign numbers randomly.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - peterwwillis 11y ago
    This isn't entirely accurate. SS numbers were created specifically with the intent of not being an identification, and were labeled as such. They were created to track people in the Social Security program. Since you can't be dead and enrolled in SS, they don't need to be unique. Duplicates have also been issued in the past by accident. The SS Administration (man, that sounds really bad) claims it has issued 450 million SSN's since the beginning of the program (which is interesting considering there's 322 million people in the US today) and that it has space for "several generations" without re-issuing numbers or increasing the number of digits. Although the number space is 9 digits, the structure of the records allows for far less than 1 billion real SSNs. The numbers have existed since 1936, and have been required for every US citizen since 1990. With 5.5 million new SSNs issued every year, it could take around 120 years to run out of numbers at the current rate.
    - jonnathanson 11y ago
      Good explanation. Thank you. It had occurred to me that non-unique ids have advantages in preventing tracking or master databasing, but it had seemed that in praxis, those advantages were negated by the way that SS numbers are actually used in various circumstances. But I see what you're saying.

diminoten2 11y ago

You don't have to have a social security card I don't believe.

Jtsummers 11y ago

In theory, yes. Though SSNs aren't unique. Which was a problem for me, though I guess the other holder of my SSN has passed since I haven't had any issues in years.

jonnathanson 11y ago
They're not unique? Jesus. I really had no idea. That seems...suboptimal, to say the least. So basically you need to do a vlookup every time you want to know who any given SS is in any particular circumstance. Huh. So ironically enough, this means that social security numbers require a database of citizens in order to be useful identifiers. Unless I'm missing something here. (On the flipside, I suppose you could argue that unique SS ids would be a lot more vulnerable to security risks.)
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  The first 3 represent the location the SSN is issued in. The next 2 are some sort of group identifier. Last 4 are a serial number, issued sequentially. Keeping in mind that they're 9 digit numbers (1 billion possibilities) and the area portion restricts it to 6 digits, the odds of collision are reasonably high. Basically, if more than 1 million people are assigned SSNs in the same "area", you will have a collision. More area numbers are assigned to mitigate this, but there's still a chance. http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm http://www.usrecordsearch.com/ssn.htm Has some details on the structure of social security numbers. EDIT: Also, even if they were issued as unique serial numbers from the start, once we exceed a total population (not living, but dead and living) of over 1 billion assigned social security numbers, we'd have had collisions anyways.
  - jonnathanson 11y ago
    Fascinating. Thank you!
  - peterwwillis 11y ago
    That was before 2011. Since then they assign numbers randomly.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- peterwwillis 11y ago
  This isn't entirely accurate. SS numbers were created specifically with the intent of not being an identification, and were labeled as such. They were created to track people in the Social Security program. Since you can't be dead and enrolled in SS, they don't need to be unique. Duplicates have also been issued in the past by accident. The SS Administration (man, that sounds really bad) claims it has issued 450 million SSN's since the beginning of the program (which is interesting considering there's 322 million people in the US today) and that it has space for "several generations" without re-issuing numbers or increasing the number of digits. Although the number space is 9 digits, the structure of the records allows for far less than 1 billion real SSNs. The numbers have existed since 1936, and have been required for every US citizen since 1990. With 5.5 million new SSNs issued every year, it could take around 120 years to run out of numbers at the current rate.
  - jonnathanson 11y ago
    Good explanation. Thank you. It had occurred to me that non-unique ids have advantages in preventing tracking or master databasing, but it had seemed that in praxis, those advantages were negated by the way that SS numbers are actually used in various circumstances. But I see what you're saying.