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North Korea Sentences U.S. Student to 15 Years Hard Labor
- btian 11y agoI hope Obama shows some strength here and not let Donald Trump take the spotlight.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jessaustin 11y agoWait, what? Why would any politician give this dude a second thought? They certainly don't mind incarcerating dudes who steal from the government here, why would they care about NKBK incarcerating dudes who steal from the government there? The fact that of the two politicians you mention, I can't predict which will do the stupid saber-rattling thing, seems to illustrate Trump's point, if I may be forgiven for steelmanning such into existence. (I voted for Bernie today, but I see why others vote for Trump.)
- wpietri 11y agoBecause we do what we can to assist our citizens overseas. As far as I know, all countries do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consular_assistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consular_assistance This guy is a total fuck-up, no doubt. Many Americans are, though, and I don't think that merits 15 years at hard labor. Especially since part of the reason the North Koreans are doing this is likely because of international politics.
- eruditely 11y agoHow is this guy stealing from the government? He took town a propaganda poster right?
- meddlepal 11y agoSo am I supposed to feel bad for Otto? We all know NK is a disaster of human rights, but hey fuck it, this kids thinks he's gonna prove a point by taking down a propaganda poster? This is lazy activism. Congrats, you prover your point. Meanwhile, we now need to spend real diplomatic points figuring out how to get you free'd all while you rot in some NK hell hole. By the way, nobody, or at least almost nobody will ever remember what you did.
- covercash 11y agoThe article suggests he took the poster down with the intention of selling it outside of the country.
- thedz 11y agoYou are supposed to feel bad, because even if what he allegedly did is stupid, the sentencing is not in any way proportionate to the action. And that's assuming he really did what North Korea says he did. It's not the first time they've made up charges, or trumped up benign accidents into intentionally malicious acts coordinated by the US Gov.
- nv-vn 11y agoSomeone who was allegedly there when the kid did it commented on a thread yesterday. I doubt the NK government would be posting propaganda on HackerNews of all places, but hey, you never know.
- jonah 11y agoThere's mention of the arrest from an HN member who saw it first-hand in the thread from yesterday on photos from DPRK: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287535 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287535
- threatofrain 11y agoOn a completely tangential note, I wanted to say that in a system where we expect to probabilistically catch people, a $1000 penalty for a $1000 crime cannot rationally deter people in cases where the crime is "worth" something. You have to charge people a disproportionate penalty to discourage people. On the other hand, a society with omnipresent cameras that catches people almost 100% of the time can penalize proportionally.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- pcurve 11y agoI've always found it interesting how US citizens can travel to NK, but not Cuba. I do realize things are changing with travel to Cuba but there are still restrictions
- donatj 11y agoYou can go to Cuba actually, I know a couple people who've been on missions with their church.
- dalke 11y ago"can travel to NK" should be read as "can travel to NK without special permission from the US government." You didn't need permission from the US per se to go to Cuba. You needed permission to contribute to the Cuban economy. If you were in a boat, entered Cuban waters, sailed around Havana harbor, and left without paying any sort of fees, then I don't think there was need for permission. It's possible to get a travel exemption that allows per diem expenditures. The details depend on the type of exemption. See http://www.usacubatravel.com/restriction.htm http://www.usacubatravel.com/restriction.htm . One of them is "Specific licenses for religious organizations", which is almost certainly what that church applied for in order for its members to travel to Cuba. These restrictions are changing this week, I believe. I don't know the latest status.
- pg_bot 11y agoFun fact, US citizens can now visit both countries.
- nerfhammer 11y agoThey relaxed more of the restrictions on travel to Cuba just today: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/us/politics/white-house-cuba-restrictions.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/us/politics/white-house-cu...
- seanmcdirmid 11y agoWe used to not be able to go to NK, but the restriction was from the NK side rather than the USA side. That changed around....2012 I think.
- donatj 11y agoI bet he feels dumb. That sucks, but still REALLY? Why did he possibly think that was a good idea?
- roasm 11y agoI find it interesting the article uses "exchange for money" instead of "sell". It's as if the author is bending over backwards to make us more sympathetic to the student.
- jonah 11y agoHis Wikipedia page uses similar language with more detail: "On February 29, 2016 he confessed to stealing a piece of North Korean propaganda from his hotel's staff-only section to take back to the United States as a "trophy" for someone willing to recompense him with a $10,000 reward." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Frederick_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Frederick_Warmbier
- gesman 11y agoThis stupidity is equal to bringing drugs to Singapore or trying to collar a bear cub in front of bear mom in the middle of wilderness. You could have fun or lose your life. Make a call. If adult cannot make a judgement call simple enough he becomes a learning statistics for others. On the other side i think NK will keep him in reasonable conditions to leverage the situation eventually returning him back.
- peteretep 11y agoMillions of young adults do stupider things every day, and relatively few end in tragedy.
- robbrown451 11y agoSure, the world isn't fair. Lots of people drive drunk and nothing bad happens. Still, the US shouldn't allow NK to have extra leverage because of this.
- akamaka 11y agoIt's not comparable at all. Posters on the street are seen as being disposable in most parts of the world, and it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home. Drug trafficking and hunting large predators are pretty much illegal everywhere, on the other hand.
- chimeracoder 11y ago> it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home It's actually funny you mention campaign posters specifically - because yes, you can get in very serious legal trouble for taking down campaign signs in certain states. Source: I know people who took down opposing campaign signs for the opposing candidate. Fun times were not had, except perhaps by the lawyers.
- akamaka 11y ago
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- beedogs 11y agoPretty crazy to see people here justifying this ridiculous sentence for something that may not have even been done on purpose. What is wrong with some of you?
- executesorder66 11y agoSo he accidentally took down the poster? How does that happen?
- viraptor 11y agoWe're not going to really know what happened there until he's out. But the question did remind me of an old Polish movie ending in a scene where a guy tries to fix a broken flag and the police stops him for breaking it. (https://youtu.be/34OcRxapLY0?t=10m10s https://youtu.be/34OcRxapLY0?t=10m10s "citizen, are you taking down national flag? papers please") NK publishes a lot of lies. Let's not rely on them for judging people.
- mrschwabe 11y agoHN is a public forum and this isn't 1999 anymore - don't assume every comment is posted by people acting on their own personal volition.
- andrethegiant 11y agoSeriously. It feels like some of the commenters here are from the DPRK itself. Do you really trust what the North Koreans are saying? He could've just been a kid who wanted a souvenir and now he's going to an internment camp for 15 years. Poor guy :-(
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jaequery 11y agoMan, the comments here are harsh! Let's atleast show some sympathy for support of his parents and his family. I'm sure the word devastation won't even describe the pain and fear that they may be going through. My hearts and prayers goes out to his family, really wish him a quick and safe return.
- mc32 11y agoThere is the possibility the excessive sentence is to make him into in to a negotiation pawn. NK now has one more pawn to play whenever something comes up with the US [perh. by extension JP]
- cbd1984 11y agoRight. It's possible to feel bad for someone murdered by a criminal even if they left their door open all night. What North Korea is going to do to this kid is going to be inhuman and totally disproportionate to what he did, which was, at worst, fairly stupid.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jmspring 11y agoThere can be sympathy for the loved ones, that said, the discussion does remind me of similar discussions regarding of the teenager arrested for theft and vandalism in Singapore in the 90s [1]. Outrage over him being caned. I'm sorry, but travelers to a foreign country need to be at least cognizant of local customs (read the section in a travel book before going), and if they break the rules, expect to face consequences. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay
- AngelaMerkel9 11y agoYou're right. All of these refugees raping and murdering across Europe need to be dealt with too.
- 11y ago
- zerooneinfinity 11y agoHe got off easy, it's 60 years in the United States.
- pkrumins 11y agoHere's a video of him confessing to his crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUMImDfhoo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUMImDfhoo
- welly 11y agoVery well scripted by the NK government, almost like he picked the words himself.
- striking 11y agoA couple of those phrases just didn't sound right, as if they weren't picked by a native speaker. "...their treatment of severe criminals like myself and of their fair and square legal procedures in the DPR Korea" As well as how awkwardly he walked in and bowed. Perhaps that's how people of the DPRK bow, but I've never seen that before.
- brador 11y agoWe mock that, but it's the equivalent of the plea bargain. Both instigate the victim to make a "confession" under duress due to the threat of "less beatings should they comply". It might even be argued that outright torture could simply be considered a more extreme version of a plea bargain.
- savanaly 11y agoHN really, really dislikes college kids, especially the globe trotting outgoing ones. I know because I fall in that camp of haters sometimes. Totally withhold judgement in this case, though, since we know almost no facts.
- dalke 11y agoDo not extended your personal views against college students to all of HN readership. Your hatred does not represent my views.
- andrewflnr 11y agoAlso, as a college student who reads HN regularly, I have no idea what GP is talking about. It's not just you.
- savanaly 11y agoIt was meant tongue in cheek. I honestly don't hate anyone.
- dalke 11y agoSo you hate on college students just for the lulz? And think that's representative of HN readership?
- elliotec 11y agoWhat the hell are you talking about? I've never seen anything remotely near your point other than this comment.
- jessaustin 11y agoSee irony.
- dang 11y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295159 and marked it off-topic.
- eruditely 11y agoOur people will get him out right? We have special operations that handles this?
- tomjen3 11y agoDonald trump would. Obama? Not sure he can be a softy or not depending
- eruditely 11y agoStrange me and you were down-voted for this comment. I'm at -1 right now for the upper comment. I'm considering Donald to be honest, Donald or Hilary.
- nness 11y agoNot likely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_detained_by_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_detained_by_... Although, Obama's administration did secure the release of journalists in 2009: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_imprisonment_of_American_journalists_by_North_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_imprisonment_of_American_...
- 4msonny 11y agodont we have a couple teenagers and several adults imprisoned....indefinitely...without any charges...at gitmo? why such outrage at NK but none at what our own govt. has been engaged in for over a decade..
- an_account 11y agoI would easily take 15 years at gitmo over 15 years in NK labor camp
- nness 11y agoI'm sure he'd easily take home detention over either, but that's not really his choice.
- jsnk 11y agoI thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people. This guy on the other hand tried to steal a poster. I can't even fathom how you are trying to draw parallel between the two cases.
- deciplex 11y ago> I thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people. If only there were some kind of open forum, or even a closed forum where the records of same are made public, where the government could present evidence in favor of this assertion, and the accused could defend themselves against it in kind. We could even mandate that they be set free, should they prove themselves innocent, or that they be required to serve a defined prison term, should they not. What a more just world we might live in, where such privileges were granted to everyone, regardless of how grievous the crimes they were accused of might be. Oh well.
- lewisl9029 11y agoExactly. For all we know about the people in Gitmo and the legitimacy of their sentences, they might as well be a bunch of very unlucky poster thieves.
- nness 11y agoSo, on one hand I understand that people visiting foreign countries are expected to follow the laws of that country. Plenty of tourists have been severely punished (or worse, executed) in places like Singapore and Indonesia for drug offences. Of all places you'd expect punishment for vandalism, NK certainly seems the most likely place. I think the real concern is the disproportionate response to the crime. Which, may in part be; 1. both a deterrent for others, 2. a show of force against the US, 3. something which forces the US to reduce some of its embargos. So, pity the fool and hope that something diplomatic can be done.
- l33tbro 11y agoFor those curious, here's his full press conference (1) presented in glorious 4:3 aspect ratio. This is obviously prior to recent sentencing: (1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCZvgY1NGXU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCZvgY1NGXU
- joshmn 11y agoNK is pioneer for 4:3 video technologies. Only America uses inferior 16:9.
- finishingmove 11y agoSimilar story (just reverse the severity of the crime and the punishment): http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2016&mm=01&dd=14&nav_id=96702 http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2016&mm=01&dd=14...
- tim333 11y agoOn the downside it's not nice for the student and a pain for US negotiators trying to get him out. On the other hand it may help throw some light on the issues of the 150,000–200,000 prisoners incarcerated in various prison camps, who don't get the press coverage.