5 ms·

This will certainly be a big step for VR democratisation. I'm surprised they aim for 120hz, it's really amazing. Can't wait to see what gets out of it.

by fla 11y ago

sgarman 11y ago
I saw somewhere that this number is apples to oranges as far as comparing it to the Rift and Vive. Trying to find a source.
fnfjcnc 11y ago
I think the word you're looking for is "adoption," not "democratization." Nobody is opening up VR to a vote.
- nnutter 11y ago
  Democratization of technology refers to the process by which access to technology rapidly continues to become more accessible to more people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_technology
  - danharaj 11y ago
    That's a very strange use of the word democratization, a domain error really, because it's about markets, not politics. A better word would be consumerization. Associating democracy with a particular economic pattern is just a swindle to try to make the two inextricable. I suppose that's why Thomas Friedman was so fond of this abuse of language.
    - wagglycocks 11y ago
      : to make (something) available to all people : to make it possible for all people to understand (something)
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      "consumerization" just tells you that something is going into the market, not that it's becoming accessible to everyone. "Democratic" is not the best word but it's better than that.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      No, it's not about markets nor any particular economic pattern; it's about the outcome, while being agnostic to the means. For example, it's also been said that the expansion of (free) public schooling has lead to a democratization of knowledge.
- fla 11y ago
  You are correct, that was the word I was looking for. I think democratization works too ;)
MLR 11y ago
I believe it's interpolated from sixty rather than the true 90Hz that the Vive and Rift will be using.
- robbies 11y ago
  Nope. That's one of the options possible, but not the only mode. The device can present at 90 or 120, and the rendering can be done at 60, 90, or 120. Not sure of all the combos possible though (like can you render at 60 and present at 120?)
  - kevingadd 11y ago
    In their slide decks they showed a 60->120 mode based on frame doubling plus asynchronous time warping (so head movement is partially taken into account). I don't think they actually allow you to run it below 90hz.
    - cubehouse 11y ago
      You can run at 90, but I think 60 -> 120 will be the common strategy given easier development and ultimately better refresh rate
Negative1 11y ago
That's an 8 millisecond frame time! I've seen physics simulations that take longer, never mind graphics intensive systems like post-processing (think Depth-of-Field, Tonemapping, 'HDR'/Bloom). I'm skeptical at how this will affect the quality of upcoming VR games since less time to render generally means a scene that is less photorealistic. Then again, maybe the immersion (presence) factor will overcome the graphical drop in quality?
- teej 11y ago
  Photo realism isn't going to happen in the first generation. Game developers are going to have to be creative in art direction and gameplay instead. And for games that do this well you won't ever notice a drop in quality. To me, that's one of the most fascinating things about games. Breakout hits make the right trade offs to push the platform further than you thought it could go. This stands true since games were put on computers.
  - rubber_duck 11y ago
    And also stuff that's not games (like say interactive stores, presentations, etc.) can easily hit that frame rate because of simpler scenes
  - mortenjorck 11y ago
    At this point, photorealism isn't so much a question of hardware limitations as one of scene complexity and interactivity. If you have a simple enough subject to start with, and bake enough lighting and shadow mapping into the textures, you can make a photorealistic scene on even previous-generation console hardware. Once you start adding more objects, and allowing more things to move, you start needing to calculate more in real time, and you need more processing and rendering power. A room with a table and a teapot could probably be made photorealistic on a PS3, even at 90 FPS. A densely populated street with moving cars and pedestrians, however, would have to be fairly visually abstracted to hit that target even on a PS4.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  It's okay if the physics run at 30fps, the key is that head movement is instantly tracked with a new frame. It'll be interesting to see what quality the PS4 can support on this, but we already know good games are possible with simpler graphics.
Mikeb85 11y ago
120hz means smooth playback at 24, 30, 60 fps (3 most common formats), because you can simply show each image for 2, 4, 5 frames. 60hz would mean potentially stuttery video at a native 24fps (some movies).

This will certainly be a big step for VR democratisation. I'm surprised they aim for 120hz, it's really amazing. Can't wait to see what gets out of it.

by fla 11y ago

This will certainly be a big step for VR democratisation. I'm surprised they aim for 120hz, it's really amazing. Can't wait to see what gets out of it.

sgarman 11y ago

I saw somewhere that this number is apples to oranges as far as comparing it to the Rift and Vive. Trying to find a source.

fnfjcnc 11y ago

I think the word you're looking for is "adoption," not "democratization." Nobody is opening up VR to a vote.

nnutter 11y ago
Democratization of technology refers to the process by which access to technology rapidly continues to become more accessible to more people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_technology
- danharaj 11y ago
  That's a very strange use of the word democratization, a domain error really, because it's about markets, not politics. A better word would be consumerization. Associating democracy with a particular economic pattern is just a swindle to try to make the two inextricable. I suppose that's why Thomas Friedman was so fond of this abuse of language.
  - wagglycocks 11y ago
    : to make (something) available to all people : to make it possible for all people to understand (something)
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    "consumerization" just tells you that something is going into the market, not that it's becoming accessible to everyone. "Democratic" is not the best word but it's better than that.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    No, it's not about markets nor any particular economic pattern; it's about the outcome, while being agnostic to the means. For example, it's also been said that the expansion of (free) public schooling has lead to a democratization of knowledge.
fla 11y ago
You are correct, that was the word I was looking for. I think democratization works too ;)

MLR 11y ago

I believe it's interpolated from sixty rather than the true 90Hz that the Vive and Rift will be using.

robbies 11y ago
Nope. That's one of the options possible, but not the only mode. The device can present at 90 or 120, and the rendering can be done at 60, 90, or 120. Not sure of all the combos possible though (like can you render at 60 and present at 120?)
- kevingadd 11y ago
  In their slide decks they showed a 60->120 mode based on frame doubling plus asynchronous time warping (so head movement is partially taken into account). I don't think they actually allow you to run it below 90hz.
  - cubehouse 11y ago
    You can run at 90, but I think 60 -> 120 will be the common strategy given easier development and ultimately better refresh rate

Negative1 11y ago

That's an 8 millisecond frame time! I've seen physics simulations that take longer, never mind graphics intensive systems like post-processing (think Depth-of-Field, Tonemapping, 'HDR'/Bloom). I'm skeptical at how this will affect the quality of upcoming VR games since less time to render generally means a scene that is less photorealistic. Then again, maybe the immersion (presence) factor will overcome the graphical drop in quality?

teej 11y ago
Photo realism isn't going to happen in the first generation. Game developers are going to have to be creative in art direction and gameplay instead. And for games that do this well you won't ever notice a drop in quality. To me, that's one of the most fascinating things about games. Breakout hits make the right trade offs to push the platform further than you thought it could go. This stands true since games were put on computers.
- rubber_duck 11y ago
  And also stuff that's not games (like say interactive stores, presentations, etc.) can easily hit that frame rate because of simpler scenes
- mortenjorck 11y ago
  At this point, photorealism isn't so much a question of hardware limitations as one of scene complexity and interactivity. If you have a simple enough subject to start with, and bake enough lighting and shadow mapping into the textures, you can make a photorealistic scene on even previous-generation console hardware. Once you start adding more objects, and allowing more things to move, you start needing to calculate more in real time, and you need more processing and rendering power. A room with a table and a teapot could probably be made photorealistic on a PS3, even at 90 FPS. A densely populated street with moving cars and pedestrians, however, would have to be fairly visually abstracted to hit that target even on a PS4.
Dylan16807 11y ago
It's okay if the physics run at 30fps, the key is that head movement is instantly tracked with a new frame. It'll be interesting to see what quality the PS4 can support on this, but we already know good games are possible with simpler graphics.

Mikeb85 11y ago

120hz means smooth playback at 24, 30, 60 fps (3 most common formats), because you can simply show each image for 2, 4, 5 frames. 60hz would mean potentially stuttery video at a native 24fps (some movies).