2 ms·

If they're merely extracting rent, you should expect two things to be true: 1. Their margins are extremely high, 90% range. 2. Open access journals can charge

by ikeboy 11y ago

If they're merely extracting rent, you should expect two things to be true: 1. Their margins are extremely high, 90% range. 2. Open access journals can charge orders of magnitude less Neither is broadly correct. Regarding the claim that ~30% margins are excessive: do you think that if their prices went down by 30%, everybody would be happy?

matwood 11y ago
Margins for Elsevier are closer to 40%, but I don't care about margins. What I care about is that we the tax payer have already paid for the research. Research often happens with government grants, done by researchers working at public universities. Editing and peer review is done for free by other researchers (who are also usually paid by grants and public universities). Elsevier does nothing but extract rent and pay for lawyers to help them keep extracting. It is insane that they go after people who wrote the paper when they try to give it away on their own website. A little reading goes a long way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier
- ikeboy 11y ago
  You've paid for the research, but not for the publishing cost. If you don't care about the cost, then the decisions you support will obviously be skewed. Claiming that they're just extracting rent ignores the cost, which even at a 40% margin is still 60% of what they charge. Do you have any information on their legal costs that would reduce the cost above? Do you think everyone complaining about prices would be happy if they would reduce prices by 35% across the board, thus making no profit? Or would you still want it to be free? If the latter, your complaint is not solely based in Elsevier's "rent extraction", but in something else.
  - matwood 11y ago
    But the author also pays for the publishing costs. Submitting a paper already costs 1-2k to have it in the journal. PLoS has shown that the 1-2k range is the publishing cost. For even more information that you'll likely not read see here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/16/academic-publishers-enemies-science https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/16/academic-pub... It's hardly surprising that publishers would fight dirty to hang on to a business model where scientists do research that is largely publicly funded, and write manuscripts and prepare figures at no cost to the journal; other scientists perform peer-review for free; and other scientists handle the editorial tasks for free or for token stipends. The result of all this free and far-below-minimum-wage professional work is journal articles in which the publisher, which has done almost nothing, owns the copyright and is able to sell copies back to libraries at monopolistic costs, and to individuals at $30 or more per view.
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/18625/do-springer-ieee-elsevier-charge-a-fee-for-non-open-access-journals https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/18625/do-spring... suggests otherwise. Where do you see closed journals charging 1-2k to submit papers?
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      http://www.researchinfonet.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Wellcome-survey-of-colour-and-page-charges-v-02.pdf http://www.researchinfonet.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/We... also doesn't find such fees, saying only one Elsevier journal charged page fees.

by ikeboy 11y ago

matwood 11y ago

Margins for Elsevier are closer to 40%, but I don't care about margins. What I care about is that we the tax payer have already paid for the research. Research often happens with government grants, done by researchers working at public universities. Editing and peer review is done for free by other researchers (who are also usually paid by grants and public universities). Elsevier does nothing but extract rent and pay for lawyers to help them keep extracting. It is insane that they go after people who wrote the paper when they try to give it away on their own website. A little reading goes a long way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier

ikeboy 11y ago
You've paid for the research, but not for the publishing cost. If you don't care about the cost, then the decisions you support will obviously be skewed. Claiming that they're just extracting rent ignores the cost, which even at a 40% margin is still 60% of what they charge. Do you have any information on their legal costs that would reduce the cost above? Do you think everyone complaining about prices would be happy if they would reduce prices by 35% across the board, thus making no profit? Or would you still want it to be free? If the latter, your complaint is not solely based in Elsevier's "rent extraction", but in something else.
- matwood 11y ago
  But the author also pays for the publishing costs. Submitting a paper already costs 1-2k to have it in the journal. PLoS has shown that the 1-2k range is the publishing cost. For even more information that you'll likely not read see here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/16/academic-publishers-enemies-science https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/16/academic-pub... It's hardly surprising that publishers would fight dirty to hang on to a business model where scientists do research that is largely publicly funded, and write manuscripts and prepare figures at no cost to the journal; other scientists perform peer-review for free; and other scientists handle the editorial tasks for free or for token stipends. The result of all this free and far-below-minimum-wage professional work is journal articles in which the publisher, which has done almost nothing, owns the copyright and is able to sell copies back to libraries at monopolistic costs, and to individuals at $30 or more per view.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/18625/do-springer-ieee-elsevier-charge-a-fee-for-non-open-access-journals https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/18625/do-spring... suggests otherwise. Where do you see closed journals charging 1-2k to submit papers?
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    http://www.researchinfonet.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Wellcome-survey-of-colour-and-page-charges-v-02.pdf http://www.researchinfonet.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/We... also doesn't find such fees, saying only one Elsevier journal charged page fees.