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Great my fridge just rebooted for a firmware update and bricked itself now the peas are rapidly defrosting and I am in a panic. Edit: Shoutout to Internet of S

by corobo 11y ago

Great my fridge just rebooted for a firmware update and bricked itself now the peas are rapidly defrosting and I am in a panic. Edit: Shoutout to Internet of Shit https://twitter.com/internetofshit https://twitter.com/internetofshit

theseatoms 11y ago
Add a physical switch for firmware updates, on an opt-in basis. How does Tesla implement updates?
- scrollaway 11y ago
  So we're back to a couple of comments above: suggesting that people actually upgrade firmware. An opt-in switch is merely convenience for the incredibly thin % that bothers with this kind of thing. And that % will actually be informed enough to not opt in. Come to think of it, that % will likely be informed enough not to buy this kind of device in the first place.
- corobo 11y ago
  Opt-in just means nobody gets updates again. I realise this is more a techy audience but think of these things from the mainstream perspective. Especially when the tabloids and social network copypastes get the word out that hackers can turn your oven on or something if you enable updates
- masklinn 11y ago
  > How does Tesla implement updates? Tesla has a pretty vested interest in shit keeping working considering it's a pretty luxurious and high-profile product. The cut-price manufacturer of your $20 lightbulb or $300 fridge? Not so much.
  - pgeorgi 11y ago
    The cheapest Chromebooks ship at $149 and have a pretty much unbrickable automated update flow that includes the firmware for the CPU and embedded controller(s). It's not a matter of luxury, it's a matter of having people work on it who care. Disclosure: I work with them. Much <3 :)
    - rdancer 11y ago
      Except when you're abroad on roaming cellular charges, and your three laptops decided that since your iPhone's personal hotspot is WiFi, it's time to download today's ChromeOS image version, because the one you had downloaded the night before was not good enough anymore. Source: Chromebooks are awesome, and even with excesses like this, they're still the cheapest to operate by far.
      - pgeorgi 11y ago
        Chrome OS tries to honor various DHCP server flags that state that the connection is metered. Unfortunately iOS doesn't seem to provide any such indication. A comment in https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323010 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323010 claims that the BSSID is used for a "suspected" state, but that may not be enough to actually stop it from downloading updates, but I'm far from an expert in that domain. In short, identifying tethering states with iOS seems to be hard.
        rdancer 11y ago
        You can determine whether the network is a Personal Hotspot heuristically. It is nice of them to have implemented private DHCP flags in Android, but if you routinely pull hundreds of megabytes without user interaction...
  - jkestner 11y ago
    Then the opportunity is to convince customers why they should pay more for well-supported connected products. Easiest way is to make high-margin products.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      That's the Tesla case. Or alternatively the Apple case. The vast majority of customers go with not that, and history shows you won't convince them the intangibles are worth it.
jon-wood 11y ago
If you connected fridge can brick itself in such a way that it stops refrigerating things then it wasn't worth buying in the first place, especially for things like this where you could end up accidentally poisoning someone the failsafe in case of software failure should be switching to an old school circuit that just keeps things at a fixed temperature.
- corobo 11y ago
  > wasn't worth buying in the first place Hence my shoutout to IoS! :)
  - elorant 11y ago
    Sure, I'll tag along. Problem is in a few years you may not have a choice because all fridges will be Internet-enabled by default. It's already happening with TVs where 70% of new sets are smart TVs. And you know, personally I don't mind because if it bothers me too much I'd just make sure that the damn thing never gets online access but I doubt the average consumer could go in such lengths. So instead of moaning and bitching about it perhaps we, as a community, ought to think about ways to solve security issues. Otherwise the industry will just go ahead and build them no matter what.
    - usrusr 11y ago
      > if it bothers me too much I'd just make sure that the damn thing never gets online access Which might be quite a challenge with some devices when your neighbors drown you in free WiFi.
      - elorant 11y ago
        How about a market for custom made Faraday cages? :)
Klathmon 11y ago
There are way to build things so that this isn't a problem. Modularize. It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. My problem with this whole hatred of iot is that it's not productive. it's a bunch of people commenting how the trend is dumb and how everything was so much better in the past. Nobody ever gives suggestions on how to improve it, or how to fix some of these issues, or even what they would like to see. It's always just "Who wants a wifi light switch anyway?" or "Oh great now my door lock can freeze".
- robotmlg 11y ago
  > It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. If it's so easy, why don't more companies do it? Why didn't Nest build their thermostats so that when the battery runs out, it reverts to a "dumb" thermostat instead of turning off your heat? http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-thermostat-turns-heating-off-for-some http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-t...
  - Klathmon 11y ago
    Honestly, i'm not sure. It's clearly more work to do it that way, as you'd need multiple "layers" of firmware/code which all need to communicate and run on their own, but i personally see that as insurance against the exact situation you are describing. Nest is far from what i'd consider a good IOT company. They are the epitome of vendor lock in, proprietary and buggy code, and shitty support.
    - robotmlg 11y ago
      What would you consider a good IOT company?
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - 11y ago
robterrell 11y ago
I wrote this rant, along the same lines, in 2001: http://www.vgg.com/et/et_030701_TVCrash.html http://www.vgg.com/et/et_030701_TVCrash.html Fifteen years ago. Wow, I love the way I gave Jini a shout-out.
- throweway 11y ago
  Daquiri liquified ftw!!
njharman 11y ago
First, calm down. Defrosting peas is not in absolute or relative terms a big deal. Nothing in remote/automatic updates requires being brickable. Don't buy such a crappy fridge. Or, call a serviceman to fixe it, just like you would today with dumb fridge.

by corobo 11y ago

theseatoms 11y ago

Add a physical switch for firmware updates, on an opt-in basis. How does Tesla implement updates?

scrollaway 11y ago
So we're back to a couple of comments above: suggesting that people actually upgrade firmware. An opt-in switch is merely convenience for the incredibly thin % that bothers with this kind of thing. And that % will actually be informed enough to not opt in. Come to think of it, that % will likely be informed enough not to buy this kind of device in the first place.
corobo 11y ago
Opt-in just means nobody gets updates again. I realise this is more a techy audience but think of these things from the mainstream perspective. Especially when the tabloids and social network copypastes get the word out that hackers can turn your oven on or something if you enable updates
masklinn 11y ago
> How does Tesla implement updates? Tesla has a pretty vested interest in shit keeping working considering it's a pretty luxurious and high-profile product. The cut-price manufacturer of your $20 lightbulb or $300 fridge? Not so much.
- pgeorgi 11y ago
  The cheapest Chromebooks ship at $149 and have a pretty much unbrickable automated update flow that includes the firmware for the CPU and embedded controller(s). It's not a matter of luxury, it's a matter of having people work on it who care. Disclosure: I work with them. Much <3 :)
  - rdancer 11y ago
    Except when you're abroad on roaming cellular charges, and your three laptops decided that since your iPhone's personal hotspot is WiFi, it's time to download today's ChromeOS image version, because the one you had downloaded the night before was not good enough anymore. Source: Chromebooks are awesome, and even with excesses like this, they're still the cheapest to operate by far.
    - pgeorgi 11y ago
      Chrome OS tries to honor various DHCP server flags that state that the connection is metered. Unfortunately iOS doesn't seem to provide any such indication. A comment in https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323010 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323010 claims that the BSSID is used for a "suspected" state, but that may not be enough to actually stop it from downloading updates, but I'm far from an expert in that domain. In short, identifying tethering states with iOS seems to be hard.
      - rdancer 11y ago
        You can determine whether the network is a Personal Hotspot heuristically. It is nice of them to have implemented private DHCP flags in Android, but if you routinely pull hundreds of megabytes without user interaction...
- jkestner 11y ago
  Then the opportunity is to convince customers why they should pay more for well-supported connected products. Easiest way is to make high-margin products.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    That's the Tesla case. Or alternatively the Apple case. The vast majority of customers go with not that, and history shows you won't convince them the intangibles are worth it.

jon-wood 11y ago

If you connected fridge can brick itself in such a way that it stops refrigerating things then it wasn't worth buying in the first place, especially for things like this where you could end up accidentally poisoning someone the failsafe in case of software failure should be switching to an old school circuit that just keeps things at a fixed temperature.

corobo 11y ago
> wasn't worth buying in the first place Hence my shoutout to IoS! :)
- elorant 11y ago
  Sure, I'll tag along. Problem is in a few years you may not have a choice because all fridges will be Internet-enabled by default. It's already happening with TVs where 70% of new sets are smart TVs. And you know, personally I don't mind because if it bothers me too much I'd just make sure that the damn thing never gets online access but I doubt the average consumer could go in such lengths. So instead of moaning and bitching about it perhaps we, as a community, ought to think about ways to solve security issues. Otherwise the industry will just go ahead and build them no matter what.
  - usrusr 11y ago
    > if it bothers me too much I'd just make sure that the damn thing never gets online access Which might be quite a challenge with some devices when your neighbors drown you in free WiFi.
    - elorant 11y ago
      How about a market for custom made Faraday cages? :)

Klathmon 11y ago

There are way to build things so that this isn't a problem. Modularize. It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. My problem with this whole hatred of iot is that it's not productive. it's a bunch of people commenting how the trend is dumb and how everything was so much better in the past. Nobody ever gives suggestions on how to improve it, or how to fix some of these issues, or even what they would like to see. It's always just "Who wants a wifi light switch anyway?" or "Oh great now my door lock can freeze".

robotmlg 11y ago
> It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. If it's so easy, why don't more companies do it? Why didn't Nest build their thermostats so that when the battery runs out, it reverts to a "dumb" thermostat instead of turning off your heat? http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-thermostat-turns-heating-off-for-some http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-t...
- Klathmon 11y ago
  Honestly, i'm not sure. It's clearly more work to do it that way, as you'd need multiple "layers" of firmware/code which all need to communicate and run on their own, but i personally see that as insurance against the exact situation you are describing. Nest is far from what i'd consider a good IOT company. They are the epitome of vendor lock in, proprietary and buggy code, and shitty support.
  - robotmlg 11y ago
    What would you consider a good IOT company?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - 11y ago

robterrell 11y ago

I wrote this rant, along the same lines, in 2001: http://www.vgg.com/et/et_030701_TVCrash.html http://www.vgg.com/et/et_030701_TVCrash.html Fifteen years ago. Wow, I love the way I gave Jini a shout-out.

throweway 11y ago
Daquiri liquified ftw!!

njharman 11y ago

First, calm down. Defrosting peas is not in absolute or relative terms a big deal. Nothing in remote/automatic updates requires being brickable. Don't buy such a crappy fridge. Or, call a serviceman to fixe it, just like you would today with dumb fridge.