5 ms·

As far as I know, the original suggestion that there was a possible GPL problem was raised by Duncan Bayne on Lobsters. After his story got attention, BMW got b

by jordigh 11y ago

As far as I know, the original suggestion that there was a possible GPL problem was raised by Duncan Bayne on Lobsters. After his story got attention, BMW got back to him.[1] Without making a big show of this, it would have been much more difficult to get BMW's attention. Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused. The point of GPL compliance isn't to sue or to shame, but just that: to bring people to compliance. Even in the beginning of the GPL rms said to Eben, "I have a rule. You must never let a request for damages interfere with a settlement for compliance."[2] Legal action is an absolute last resort, usually when years of friendly negotiations fail. All GPL lawsuits I know of only took place after years of attempts to get compliance failed. Duncan just wanted compliance, not legal action. --- [1] https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_gnu_public_license/comments/hxkrtn#c_hxkrtn https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_... [2] http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes

FireBeyond 11y ago
"Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused." That's a little bit of a stretch of the scenario. If I want to contact the Legal department of a multinational firm on a -legal matter- related to contract law and software licensing, I (or my lawyers) send a -letter- or at least email to the legal department. I -don't- call Tier 1 Customer Tech Support for the vehicle, demand to be put through to legal, run off to the web and talk about how BMW stonewalled me.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  I can almost never find that info.
  - FireBeyond 11y ago
    Without sounding snarky, I searched "BMW Australia Head Office" and got the address, pretty quickly. Alternatively, the Contact page of their website had a section for "corporate" matters.
- jordigh 11y ago
  It's entirely reasonable for BMW to make this contact information easily available. BMW isn't a hapless victim here; they're a giant multinational conglomerate. They can afford to make it easy to find source code, and customer reps should know what to point to. This shouldn't even require lawyers. The customer reps should be trained to point out where the source code is.
lmm 11y ago
What would have happened if, instead of raising it on lobsters, Bayne had emailed the address in the manual? (And if he doesn't own a BMW (or a written offer in accordance with the license), he's not in any position to be asking for the source code). Most likely he'd've received the source and there would've been no issue. The outrage-storm was extremely premature.
- jordigh 11y ago
  > he's not in any position to be asking for the source code People keep repeating this, but I'm pretty convinced that clause 3b of GPLv2 says that the source code must be given to any third party, since 3a and 3c do not apply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11218324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11218324
  - edent 11y ago
    I agree. It's also possible, I presume, to hire a car for the day. You don't need to be the owner of the vehicle, surely?
    - lmm 11y ago
      The whole point of the GPL is to give you the right to fix or improve software you own. It would be extremely rude to reprogram a rental.
      - edent 11y ago
        Depends. Would it be rude to inflate an under-inflated tire? Or to wash the windscreen? Or tighten a loose bolt somewhere? I mean, you're right - it's impolite (and possibly dangerous) to reflash someone else's firmware. But considering the regular upgrade path for BMWs is to stick a USB stick into the car, I'm not sure how you can prevent it. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/bmw-are-sending-their-software-updates-unencrypted/ https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/bmw-are-sending-their-softw...
        11y ago
whocansay 11y ago
It was on Hacker News at the same time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11214992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11214992
btilly 11y ago
The original article said that he was pointed to a website where you could put in a VIN and get source code. The GPL says that you must present a written offer executable by anyone. As long as their written offer describes how to get the software, and it works, they are fine. There is no requirement that they give the written offer to any random stranger who asks. Furthermore the requirement for a VIN is very reasonable. The software is constantly changing, and without the VIN, how do they know what version to give you? It was obvious at the start the BMW was in compliance. There was no actual story. Just a jerk who thought he was defending free software who was rude and managed to get a bunch of knee-jerk responses from the internet. So what has been accomplished? We have "gotten BMW's attention", and wasted a bunch of people's time to verify that they were in compliance from the start. (Which I figured out from the original story, even if the person writing it didn't understand the GPL well enough to think it through.)
- edent 11y ago
  Just to clarify. After entering the VIN, you get the compiled firmware ready to flash. There are no instructions on that page (or anywhere I could find on the BMW site) for how to get the source. I've emailed the address in the license file, but I've not yet had a response.

by jordigh 11y ago

FireBeyond 11y ago

"Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused." That's a little bit of a stretch of the scenario. If I want to contact the Legal department of a multinational firm on a -legal matter- related to contract law and software licensing, I (or my lawyers) send a -letter- or at least email to the legal department. I -don't- call Tier 1 Customer Tech Support for the vehicle, demand to be put through to legal, run off to the web and talk about how BMW stonewalled me.

paulddraper 11y ago
I can almost never find that info.
- FireBeyond 11y ago
  Without sounding snarky, I searched "BMW Australia Head Office" and got the address, pretty quickly. Alternatively, the Contact page of their website had a section for "corporate" matters.
jordigh 11y ago
It's entirely reasonable for BMW to make this contact information easily available. BMW isn't a hapless victim here; they're a giant multinational conglomerate. They can afford to make it easy to find source code, and customer reps should know what to point to. This shouldn't even require lawyers. The customer reps should be trained to point out where the source code is.

lmm 11y ago

What would have happened if, instead of raising it on lobsters, Bayne had emailed the address in the manual? (And if he doesn't own a BMW (or a written offer in accordance with the license), he's not in any position to be asking for the source code). Most likely he'd've received the source and there would've been no issue. The outrage-storm was extremely premature.

jordigh 11y ago
> he's not in any position to be asking for the source code People keep repeating this, but I'm pretty convinced that clause 3b of GPLv2 says that the source code must be given to any third party, since 3a and 3c do not apply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11218324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11218324
- edent 11y ago
  I agree. It's also possible, I presume, to hire a car for the day. You don't need to be the owner of the vehicle, surely?
  - lmm 11y ago
    The whole point of the GPL is to give you the right to fix or improve software you own. It would be extremely rude to reprogram a rental.
    - edent 11y ago
      Depends. Would it be rude to inflate an under-inflated tire? Or to wash the windscreen? Or tighten a loose bolt somewhere? I mean, you're right - it's impolite (and possibly dangerous) to reflash someone else's firmware. But considering the regular upgrade path for BMWs is to stick a USB stick into the car, I'm not sure how you can prevent it. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/bmw-are-sending-their-software-updates-unencrypted/ https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2016/02/bmw-are-sending-their-softw...
      - 11y ago

whocansay 11y ago

It was on Hacker News at the same time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11214992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11214992

btilly 11y ago

The original article said that he was pointed to a website where you could put in a VIN and get source code. The GPL says that you must present a written offer executable by anyone. As long as their written offer describes how to get the software, and it works, they are fine. There is no requirement that they give the written offer to any random stranger who asks. Furthermore the requirement for a VIN is very reasonable. The software is constantly changing, and without the VIN, how do they know what version to give you? It was obvious at the start the BMW was in compliance. There was no actual story. Just a jerk who thought he was defending free software who was rude and managed to get a bunch of knee-jerk responses from the internet. So what has been accomplished? We have "gotten BMW's attention", and wasted a bunch of people's time to verify that they were in compliance from the start. (Which I figured out from the original story, even if the person writing it didn't understand the GPL well enough to think it through.)

edent 11y ago
Just to clarify. After entering the VIN, you get the compiled firmware ready to flash. There are no instructions on that page (or anywhere I could find on the BMW site) for how to get the source. I've emailed the address in the license file, but I've not yet had a response.