7 ms·

BMW and the GPL

134 points by edent 11y ago

nailer 11y ago
> Here's the thing - contacting customer services like that was entirely the wrong approach. Customer services aren't trained for the 0.001% of people who might be interested in an esoteric matter of legal licensing. Crying foul because a minimum wage rep didn't understand an obscure technical reference is counter productive. Damn straight. So provided opensource@bmw.com actually respond this should be sorted out: kudos for the author for being forthright about how this could have been handled better.
- cJ0th 11y ago
  Or just push it on git hub once and be done with it for good.
hannob 11y ago
> Customer services aren't trained for the 0.001% of people who might be interested in an esoteric matter of legal licensing. Here's where I'd like to disagree. Of course customer service doesn't have to know about those esoteric issues. But customer service should notice when a request comes that's not their department. And if that's the case they should redirect it to someone who knows better. This is not the personal fault of the person sitting at the customer service, but the structure in a company. They should be able to handle that.
- coldpie 11y ago
  I think you're underestimating the volume of stupid-and-crazy shit that CS reps have to deal with every day. Sorting out stupid-and-crazy from legitimate-but-not-my-department would be several full time jobs in itself.
  - jrcii 11y ago
    You've touched on a larger issue that occurs to me often. Though your point is valid, my response to a company making the argument would be, "too bad." /They're/ the ones making billions in revenue by voluntarily accepting a business relationship with millions of customers. If you want the revenue from those millions of relationships, it's also your responsibility to manage your side of the bargain with those millions of relationships, that includes your legal (and many other) responsibilities. Is scaling to keep up with your responsibilities to millions of customers easy? No. However that's not the customer's problem.
    - coldpie 11y ago
      And yet, they're making billions despite not doing what you say. So...
    - tobltobs 11y ago
      It would not be in the interest of 99.9% of your customer if you try to to satisfy those 0.1% of stupid-and-crazy customers. Because somebody would have to pay for it. And in this case it wasn't even a customer.
jordigh 11y ago
As far as I know, the original suggestion that there was a possible GPL problem was raised by Duncan Bayne on Lobsters. After his story got attention, BMW got back to him.[1] Without making a big show of this, it would have been much more difficult to get BMW's attention. Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused. The point of GPL compliance isn't to sue or to shame, but just that: to bring people to compliance. Even in the beginning of the GPL rms said to Eben, "I have a rule. You must never let a request for damages interfere with a settlement for compliance."[2] Legal action is an absolute last resort, usually when years of friendly negotiations fail. All GPL lawsuits I know of only took place after years of attempts to get compliance failed. Duncan just wanted compliance, not legal action. --- [1] https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_gnu_public_license/comments/hxkrtn#c_hxkrtn https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_... [2] http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes
- FireBeyond 11y ago
  "Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused." That's a little bit of a stretch of the scenario. If I want to contact the Legal department of a multinational firm on a -legal matter- related to contract law and software licensing, I (or my lawyers) send a -letter- or at least email to the legal department. I -don't- call Tier 1 Customer Tech Support for the vehicle, demand to be put through to legal, run off to the web and talk about how BMW stonewalled me.
  - paulddraper 11y ago
    I can almost never find that info.
    - FireBeyond 11y ago
      Without sounding snarky, I searched "BMW Australia Head Office" and got the address, pretty quickly. Alternatively, the Contact page of their website had a section for "corporate" matters.
  - jordigh 11y ago
merb 11y ago
Besides all of that: As already said BMW only needs to give you the source code if you are a car owner. If the car owner then puts the source code online it's fine.
- DannyBee 11y ago
  This is not right. If they put it online and point you at it, at the time they ship, that's fine. Otherwise, it's going to be looked at as a written offer. In this case, it's a 100% clear written offer. Written offers must be valid to all third parties. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenOfferValid http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenO...
  - mugsie 11y ago
    > This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer. So you still need to be in possession of the binaries. it is not any 3rd party, it is any third party who has possession of the binaries.
    - DannyBee 11y ago
      No. I understand why you may think it can be read that way. But i assure you it means "that means people who did not get binaries can still receive copies of the source code". Please read the GPL compliance guides as well, which cover this in some detail (i quoted it for you in the other comment). What you write would be correct for GPLv3, which uses the phrase, "accompanied by a written offer ... to give anyone who possesses the object code " This was specifically changed in the third discussion draft of GPLv3 (see http://gplv3.fsf.org/gpl3-dd3-rationale.pdf http://gplv3.fsf.org/gpl3-dd3-rationale.pdf) In any case, i assure you: if you try to restrict it to people who have binaries, various parties will take you to court for non-compliance :)
rubinlinux 11y ago
Whisper systems releases source code. BMW runs whisper systems OS. Where is the rub!?
rubinlinux 11y ago
Whisper systems releases source code. BMW runs whisper systems OS. Where is the rub!?
mankash666 11y ago
Lesson learned - don't touch GPLed software even with a long stick. Time to make FreeBSD gain mindshare instead of accepting GPLed linux which does the same thing!

134 points by edent 11y ago

> Here's the thing - contacting customer services like that was entirely the wrong approach. Customer services aren't trained for the 0.001% of people who might be interested in an esoteric matter of legal licensing. Crying foul because a minimum wage rep didn't understand an obscure technical reference is counter productive. Damn straight. So provided opensource@bmw.com actually respond this should be sorted out: kudos for the author for being forthright about how this could have been handled better.

cJ0th 11y ago
Or just push it on git hub once and be done with it for good.

hannob 11y ago

> Customer services aren't trained for the 0.001% of people who might be interested in an esoteric matter of legal licensing. Here's where I'd like to disagree. Of course customer service doesn't have to know about those esoteric issues. But customer service should notice when a request comes that's not their department. And if that's the case they should redirect it to someone who knows better. This is not the personal fault of the person sitting at the customer service, but the structure in a company. They should be able to handle that.

coldpie 11y ago
I think you're underestimating the volume of stupid-and-crazy shit that CS reps have to deal with every day. Sorting out stupid-and-crazy from legitimate-but-not-my-department would be several full time jobs in itself.
- jrcii 11y ago
  You've touched on a larger issue that occurs to me often. Though your point is valid, my response to a company making the argument would be, "too bad." /They're/ the ones making billions in revenue by voluntarily accepting a business relationship with millions of customers. If you want the revenue from those millions of relationships, it's also your responsibility to manage your side of the bargain with those millions of relationships, that includes your legal (and many other) responsibilities. Is scaling to keep up with your responsibilities to millions of customers easy? No. However that's not the customer's problem.
  - coldpie 11y ago
    And yet, they're making billions despite not doing what you say. So...
  - tobltobs 11y ago
    It would not be in the interest of 99.9% of your customer if you try to to satisfy those 0.1% of stupid-and-crazy customers. Because somebody would have to pay for it. And in this case it wasn't even a customer.

jordigh 11y ago

As far as I know, the original suggestion that there was a possible GPL problem was raised by Duncan Bayne on Lobsters. After his story got attention, BMW got back to him.[1] Without making a big show of this, it would have been much more difficult to get BMW's attention. Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused. The point of GPL compliance isn't to sue or to shame, but just that: to bring people to compliance. Even in the beginning of the GPL rms said to Eben, "I have a rule. You must never let a request for damages interfere with a settlement for compliance."[2] Legal action is an absolute last resort, usually when years of friendly negotiations fail. All GPL lawsuits I know of only took place after years of attempts to get compliance failed. Duncan just wanted compliance, not legal action. --- [1] https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_gnu_public_license/comments/hxkrtn#c_hxkrtn https://lobste.rs/s/uaa4db/bmw_refuses_to_abide_by_terms_of_... [2] http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes http://www.geof.net/research/2006/moglen-notes

FireBeyond 11y ago
"Duncan tried to contact legal but was refused." That's a little bit of a stretch of the scenario. If I want to contact the Legal department of a multinational firm on a -legal matter- related to contract law and software licensing, I (or my lawyers) send a -letter- or at least email to the legal department. I -don't- call Tier 1 Customer Tech Support for the vehicle, demand to be put through to legal, run off to the web and talk about how BMW stonewalled me.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  I can almost never find that info.
  - FireBeyond 11y ago
    Without sounding snarky, I searched "BMW Australia Head Office" and got the address, pretty quickly. Alternatively, the Contact page of their website had a section for "corporate" matters.
- jordigh 11y ago

merb 11y ago

Besides all of that: As already said BMW only needs to give you the source code if you are a car owner. If the car owner then puts the source code online it's fine.

DannyBee 11y ago
This is not right. If they put it online and point you at it, at the time they ship, that's fine. Otherwise, it's going to be looked at as a written offer. In this case, it's a 100% clear written offer. Written offers must be valid to all third parties. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenOfferValid http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#WhatDoesWrittenO...
- mugsie 11y ago
  > This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer. So you still need to be in possession of the binaries. it is not any 3rd party, it is any third party who has possession of the binaries.
  - DannyBee 11y ago
    No. I understand why you may think it can be read that way. But i assure you it means "that means people who did not get binaries can still receive copies of the source code". Please read the GPL compliance guides as well, which cover this in some detail (i quoted it for you in the other comment). What you write would be correct for GPLv3, which uses the phrase, "accompanied by a written offer ... to give anyone who possesses the object code " This was specifically changed in the third discussion draft of GPLv3 (see http://gplv3.fsf.org/gpl3-dd3-rationale.pdf http://gplv3.fsf.org/gpl3-dd3-rationale.pdf) In any case, i assure you: if you try to restrict it to people who have binaries, various parties will take you to court for non-compliance :)

rubinlinux 11y ago

Whisper systems releases source code. BMW runs whisper systems OS. Where is the rub!?

rubinlinux 11y ago

Whisper systems releases source code. BMW runs whisper systems OS. Where is the rub!?

mankash666 11y ago

Lesson learned - don't touch GPLed software even with a long stick. Time to make FreeBSD gain mindshare instead of accepting GPLed linux which does the same thing!