5 ms·

Get an outside offer from some place you are willing to work at. Either they match it or they don't it's all one to you. Frame it as you having to do what's rig

Get an outside offer from some place you are willing to work at. Either they match it or they don't it's all one to you. Frame it as you having to do what's right for you and that you can't afford to leave that kind of money on the table. Working careers are short and you will never get that money back if pass on it. It's the truth and it's something any half way decent manager can understand. It's not personal it's just a typical business decision for both parties. Expect that they may not match immediately. They will try to get you to wait a year or till the next cycle. The response is that you don't want to wait or leave money on the table due to the time value of money and the risk you are shouldering. Either they concede, sweeten the pot, or pass. If you do end up with future promises get it in writing signed by your manager. Read it and make sure there are no games. I wouldn't bother with estimates or middle grounds. Where the rubber meets the road is what kind offer you can get somewhere else. You are asking for a pittance from them and for the most part unless it's a failing business they shouldn't care.

djmill 11y ago
Okay great, that makes sense. Thanks for the advice!
dudul 11y ago
Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there". They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to force you to share your knowledge in the next few months and kick you out. Again, I agree that it makes perfect sense to you as an employee to maximize your income, it's just business. But a lot of business owners, especially in startups, may take it personally ("How dare he want to leave us? How about our mission of making the world a better place? He's only in it for the money ????!!!"). So, long story short, I would amend this advice with not disclosing that you have an other offer and not setting an ultimatum.
- djmill 11y ago
  Okay, very interesting... I like the way you think. Luckily, I built various components and the entire CSS layer (which gets very complex) is really only understood by me... which is a nice monopoly from time to time. But yeah, if I leave I know I'll be forced to continue doing the same work but also forced to educate the entire team, etc. on my knowledge. But you're right, I don't want to make anything personal, it's purely a business and career growth decision on my end. I love the company and what they stand for, but I don't like feeling like I'm being taken advantage of by being underpaid for my skill sets. After working here for a while, I've noticed that the interviewees are lacking in skill sets and we can't seem to gain or retain top talent... which also leads me to think I have a leg-up on this as if I leave, they're screwed in certain areas.
  - arielweisberg 11y ago
    You might be surprised. Management can be very bad at economics and negotiation resulting in them paying in recruiting and on boarding costs more than what you asked for. This is why it's key to always have an offer some place you are willing to work. Never bring up an offer some place you aren't willing to work. That said you have to respect an employer's investment in hiring and on boarding. Switching jobs every year is a problem for employers. I think 2 years is a minimum and 4 years is what I target. I also hate interviewing. After 4 years all bets are absolutely off and my tolerance for making less than what I could make elsewhere for equivalent work is close to zero.
    - djmill 11y ago
      Gotcha that makes sense. Part of me feels like I'm being greedy and part of me actually feels like I'm being taken advantage of in certain ways, so I'm personally struggling with whether or not to ask for a raise anyway... you make very good points here, thanks!
      - arielweisberg 11y ago
        Greed is good. You can be greedy you just have to be fair and respect your employer's time and investment. They are not entitled to your labor in perpetuity just because they hired you. You have to give them something or risk burning bridges and not developing a professional network. Feeling like your being taken advantage is something I think you should never express. One HN poster put it very eloquently. At the end of the month when you are paid you and your employe are square. You don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything. By continuing to work there you are agreeing to trade the next month for what they have promised to pay you and no more. Stay away from talking about the past. You can't collect on perceived past debts. That's also why I don't like to make compensation about performance. It's up to my employer to decide whether the business value I deliver is worth what I cost. If you have an offer in hand this is what you cost. It's not ambiguous or nebulous like performance and that's why managers love to talk about performance. Don't indulge them. Sure I have felt taken advantage of, but it's not really your employer. It's the game. It's crap and we all have to work within it to maximize the value we can realize. Your employer is doing it and so should you. And don't think I haven't lost with that strategy before. I have worked for people who did not recognize the business value I provided. It's not a big deal. It happens. You move on and maybe they are right or maybe you are right. Maybe the next thing is better than what you had or maybe it isn't

djmill 11y ago

Okay great, that makes sense. Thanks for the advice!

dudul 11y ago

Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there". They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to force you to share your knowledge in the next few months and kick you out. Again, I agree that it makes perfect sense to you as an employee to maximize your income, it's just business. But a lot of business owners, especially in startups, may take it personally ("How dare he want to leave us? How about our mission of making the world a better place? He's only in it for the money ????!!!"). So, long story short, I would amend this advice with not disclosing that you have an other offer and not setting an ultimatum.

djmill 11y ago
Okay, very interesting... I like the way you think. Luckily, I built various components and the entire CSS layer (which gets very complex) is really only understood by me... which is a nice monopoly from time to time. But yeah, if I leave I know I'll be forced to continue doing the same work but also forced to educate the entire team, etc. on my knowledge. But you're right, I don't want to make anything personal, it's purely a business and career growth decision on my end. I love the company and what they stand for, but I don't like feeling like I'm being taken advantage of by being underpaid for my skill sets. After working here for a while, I've noticed that the interviewees are lacking in skill sets and we can't seem to gain or retain top talent... which also leads me to think I have a leg-up on this as if I leave, they're screwed in certain areas.
- arielweisberg 11y ago
  You might be surprised. Management can be very bad at economics and negotiation resulting in them paying in recruiting and on boarding costs more than what you asked for. This is why it's key to always have an offer some place you are willing to work. Never bring up an offer some place you aren't willing to work. That said you have to respect an employer's investment in hiring and on boarding. Switching jobs every year is a problem for employers. I think 2 years is a minimum and 4 years is what I target. I also hate interviewing. After 4 years all bets are absolutely off and my tolerance for making less than what I could make elsewhere for equivalent work is close to zero.
  - djmill 11y ago
    Gotcha that makes sense. Part of me feels like I'm being greedy and part of me actually feels like I'm being taken advantage of in certain ways, so I'm personally struggling with whether or not to ask for a raise anyway... you make very good points here, thanks!
    - arielweisberg 11y ago
      Greed is good. You can be greedy you just have to be fair and respect your employer's time and investment. They are not entitled to your labor in perpetuity just because they hired you. You have to give them something or risk burning bridges and not developing a professional network. Feeling like your being taken advantage is something I think you should never express. One HN poster put it very eloquently. At the end of the month when you are paid you and your employe are square. You don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything. By continuing to work there you are agreeing to trade the next month for what they have promised to pay you and no more. Stay away from talking about the past. You can't collect on perceived past debts. That's also why I don't like to make compensation about performance. It's up to my employer to decide whether the business value I deliver is worth what I cost. If you have an offer in hand this is what you cost. It's not ambiguous or nebulous like performance and that's why managers love to talk about performance. Don't indulge them. Sure I have felt taken advantage of, but it's not really your employer. It's the game. It's crap and we all have to work within it to maximize the value we can realize. Your employer is doing it and so should you. And don't think I haven't lost with that strategy before. I have worked for people who did not recognize the business value I provided. It's not a big deal. It happens. You move on and maybe they are right or maybe you are right. Maybe the next thing is better than what you had or maybe it isn't