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Ethical supply chains will become a badge of honor in the future for the upper class who can afford it... but the masses consuming the majority of the products

Ethical supply chains will become a badge of honor in the future for the upper class who can afford it... but the masses consuming the majority of the products driving the price down to slave-labor proportions will require a cultural change. There is something deep in human nature that sees something it wants and narrows our thoughts to just getting that item. Maybe its a holdover from our Hunter/Gatherer instincts. But we seem to be using it to hack our minds to ignore the damage we do to our fellow humans in the process of acquiring. We may need to aspouse minimalist ideology at a mass scale (something I see in fellow Gen Yers.)

jqm 11y ago
I trust regulatory policy much more than badges of honor. I always laugh when I see "fair trade coffee". Is it really fair trade? Do most people care about it? Would the socially conscious hipster just as easily drink non-fair trade coffee if the budget got tight or they thought no one was looking? You can't depend on people to do the right thing. That's why we have laws. International labor laws will hopefully one day become a thing. In the meantime we have trade agreements. We shouldn't allow import of slave produced goods to western societies. IMHOP.
- djrogers 11y ago
  >I trust regulatory policy The same regulatory policy regularly subverted by small bribes in the article?
  - jqm 11y ago
    Ya well... nothing human is perfect. Doesn't mean it can't be better (and it will be). But regulation generally trumps people behaving ethically on their own. Sadly. Also, couldn't small bribes also be a problem in things like fair trade certification?
    - clort 11y ago
      > Sadly well, except that in a way.. regulation comes from the government, which is the collective us. I prefer that the government spends some money to work out what regulation would be useful so that the collective us can spend our money on fairly traded goods (as an example) rather than every person in the collective having to do that research constantly to overcome the hard sell and marketing lies that are produced to facilitate somebody making a quick buck and externalising costs which I wouldn't otherwise wish to pay. As an example, if the government says that in truth, gravestones imported from India are largely produced by slave labor and then it refuses to admit them into the country. That means, that when my relative died and I am not really in a frame of mind to research the supply chain of the headstones and the sellers lay on the hard sell, I can still be assured that I am not funding this terrible system. I would welcome that..
- galfarragem 11y ago
  The copy is also very important. If you use the negative form: 'unfair trade coffee' the impact is much stronger.
- cname 11y ago
  > the socially conscious hipster Maybe we'd make more progress if we stopped denigrating people for trying to do what they can. It may not be enough, but at least some people are trying to do _something_. But when you put people down this way, it makes them less likely to do anything, because no one wants to be labeled as vacuous and superficial (AKA "hipster").
  - jqm 11y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't see any denigration. Just an example of human nature being human nature. I'm sure you can think of plenty more if the term "hipster" bothers you.
  - tedks 11y ago
    I think this is a valid pushback against making lifestyle changes that are "something" but not meaningful, especially when this is used as a social cudgel. You don't get brownie points for rubbing other people's noses in the ineffective shit that you do in order to make yourself feel fuzzier.
    - ghettoimp 11y ago
      Anecdotally, FWIW. I've been a vegetarian for about ten years. I'm not religious, but came to this decision after a lot of thought and reflection about my own ethics. I have no illusions that my behavior will help animals, meat packers, etc.; I just wasn't comfortable being a party to that system any longer. I've been surprised, at times, that others can interpret this personal decision about my own behavior and beliefs as some "social cudgel" that I am wielding against them. I guess it doesn't take much to leap from "oh, are you a vegetarian?" to "you must think eating meat is unethical," to "you must think I'm evil for eating this burger," to "annoying snobby vegetarians, always acting superior and rubbing it in your nose." Anyway. That hipster buying his fair-trade coffee might not be doing it to insult you. It might be something he's read about, thought about, and decided he cares about. He might figure that mostly it's an empty gesture, but maybe it'll do some good. If you want to buy some other coffee, he might be totally OK with that. Of course, YMMV.
- chestnut-tree 11y ago
  "I always laugh when I see "fair trade coffee". Is it really fair trade? Do most people care about it?" Some people do care. Enough for an ever-growing range of products that are part of the Fairtrade scheme. In the UK, the Fairtrade logo is almost universally recognised by consumers because you can find fair trade products in just about every supermarket (obviously the number of products varies by supermarket, but even discount Supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi stock a few items). One major supermarket in the UK (Sainsbury's) sources all it's bananas under the fair trade scheme. Fair trade has its critics and perhaps the scheme fails at times to live up to its ideals, but it's still a scheme worthy of support. And I'm glad it's going strong (at least in the UK - I think other countries have their own versions). Here's an excellent blog post from the Fairtrade foundation on some common misconceptions about fair trade http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/en/media-centre/blog/2015/july/doing-good-and-doing-better http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/en/media-centre/blog/2015/july/d...
delecti 11y ago
> Ethical supply chains will become a badge of honor in the future for the upper class who can afford it The same society whose middle and lower classes are demanding ever lower prices at the cost of inhumane treatment of workers is the same society which produces the upper class you hold that hope for. I think you must be living in a different world than I am, because the upper class I'm familiar with is just as happy as everyone else to have their goods produced by the not-quite-but-almost-slave labor described in the article. I agree that this will require a cultural change, but at all levels. The upper class isn't going to jump on that any sooner than the rest of us without a major shift.
- tsunamifury 11y ago
  The badge of honor is, of course, meant pharisaically. The upper class I'm familiar with consumes products by people like Brunello Cucinelli who goes to great lengths to verify the ethical sourcing of his products. They eat localvorically, and in general buy ulta-high end goods that they research a bit before purchasing (because they are finicky about many aspects). This new hobby is a ultra-status conversation piece that can be traded at parties. You should be able to name the region your boat deck's teak came from, and then drop that the hunting rifle you just had hand crafted has a recovered Lebanese cedar stock that came from an old chest of drawers.
  - chillaxtian 11y ago
    that's a pretty broad stroke you are applying
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    I love your adverbs.
  - beat 11y ago
    Ethical sourcing is privilege, yes, and status as well. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Food in particular is a source for this controversy. Over the past fifty years, the population of the planet has doubled, but food cost as a proportion of the economy has halved. This is due to the techological advances of "green revolution" agriculture - tractors, transportation, and chemical fertilizers and pesticides. But there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Cheap food comes at the price of health and environmental damage, among other things. (want slavery? Check out the chocolate supply chain.) And it's not a huge luxury to eat more ethical foods. Middle class people can afford it.
timje1 11y ago
Around half of all eggs laid in the UK come from free range hens (1) - I believe this increasing proportion is partly due to a sticker requirement to mark eggs with 'Eggs from caged hens'. I wonder what effect there would be on the electronics industry if all iPhones in the EU had to be sold with a prominent sticker 'Produced with slave labour' ? I honestly think that regulations can nudge the behaviour and expectations of 'the masses' through this kind of labelling. (1) http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/layinghens/farming http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/layinghens/far...
- lucisferre 11y ago
  I can just imagine how much having to mark phones "made by slaves" in a non removable way would impact sales.
  - avian 11y ago
    Imagine a state passing a law requiring stickers like that, but not outright banning items known to be produced by slave labour. The message would basically be that yes, we are fully aware that some products are made with slave labour and we are OK with that (as long as it's clearly marked).
  - collyw 11y ago
    Apple removed an app that hinted at that: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-approves-then-removes-app-highlighting-the-dark-side-of-iphone-manufacturing-1420937/ http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-approves-then-removes-app-hi...
- tsunamifury 11y ago
  I agree! I the US we have focused more on branding the positive aspects (local, organic) and socially stigmatizing the negative (e.g. labeling smoking). But as I mention above, that ends up making a class distinction more than real change.
- dorfsmay 11y ago
  The problem is that "free range" is easy to define. Which criteria should we label for that are meaningful in other countries across the world? Made by workers: Receiving Minimum wage (which one)? Receiving Free healthcare? Working a maximum of 8 hours / day? Over the age of 16? 18? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but defining what is acceptable is not easy. Don't forget that in most western countries no access to free healthcare would be defined as unacceptable. Also in some poor countries 14 year old "kids" have fought against anti-child labour laws because they were the only provider for their family and there is no help from the government regardless of your condition.
Laaw 11y ago
I wonder why it is we assume it's even possible to successfully maximize happiness on a global scale. Has there ever been a time in human history where slavery wasn't the fundamental backbone of a prosperous society?
- framp 11y ago
  Robots and automation?
  - chii 11y ago
    That's yet to come to pass.
- zepto 11y ago
  Was here ever a time in human history when the horse wasn't the fastest way to travel?
Chlorus 11y ago
I'll bite: What happens to the poor when the inhumane supply chain that has sustained them (albeit poorly) goes away? Also, a googler complaining about slave-labor prices is rich with irony.
- astazangasta 11y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting that a humane system of production is impossible? The status quo or oblivion' is a terrible false dichotomy.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    It is impossible in the near term. One only needs to look at what happened when protest against child labor resulted in companies no longer using child labor in their supply chains. Ideally, those children should've been cared for by welfare, but in many places thew welfare system either wasn't there, wasn't able to handle the change, or it was too slow to aid. Many of those children ended up in a worse situation; some even changing to even worse illegal professions to survive. Now, in the long run, that will be better than just keeping the status quo. But we should remember that a quick change can be significantly worse in the short term, especially one where the focus is incorrectly applied (in these cases, the focus is on goods being produced by a child labor instead of the conditions that result in children working to begin with; ending the child labor does not end the conditions and will sometimes make things much worse).
    - brightball 11y ago
      This is an important lesson. Even the most noble of intentions come with unintended consequences. It's one thing if the situation was a matter of children being forced to work. If a kid finds work on purpose to help himself or his family eat and you suddenly make it illegal without removing the NEED for him to have to work to help his family then you've made the situation worse while instituting a policy to make yourself feel better. My view on politics as I've gotten old has gone squarely to the singular point: No complaints. No rules. Solutions or shut up.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

jqm 11y ago

I trust regulatory policy much more than badges of honor. I always laugh when I see "fair trade coffee". Is it really fair trade? Do most people care about it? Would the socially conscious hipster just as easily drink non-fair trade coffee if the budget got tight or they thought no one was looking? You can't depend on people to do the right thing. That's why we have laws. International labor laws will hopefully one day become a thing. In the meantime we have trade agreements. We shouldn't allow import of slave produced goods to western societies. IMHOP.

djrogers 11y ago
>I trust regulatory policy The same regulatory policy regularly subverted by small bribes in the article?
- jqm 11y ago
  Ya well... nothing human is perfect. Doesn't mean it can't be better (and it will be). But regulation generally trumps people behaving ethically on their own. Sadly. Also, couldn't small bribes also be a problem in things like fair trade certification?
  - clort 11y ago
    > Sadly well, except that in a way.. regulation comes from the government, which is the collective us. I prefer that the government spends some money to work out what regulation would be useful so that the collective us can spend our money on fairly traded goods (as an example) rather than every person in the collective having to do that research constantly to overcome the hard sell and marketing lies that are produced to facilitate somebody making a quick buck and externalising costs which I wouldn't otherwise wish to pay. As an example, if the government says that in truth, gravestones imported from India are largely produced by slave labor and then it refuses to admit them into the country. That means, that when my relative died and I am not really in a frame of mind to research the supply chain of the headstones and the sellers lay on the hard sell, I can still be assured that I am not funding this terrible system. I would welcome that..
galfarragem 11y ago
The copy is also very important. If you use the negative form: 'unfair trade coffee' the impact is much stronger.
cname 11y ago
> the socially conscious hipster Maybe we'd make more progress if we stopped denigrating people for trying to do what they can. It may not be enough, but at least some people are trying to do _something_. But when you put people down this way, it makes them less likely to do anything, because no one wants to be labeled as vacuous and superficial (AKA "hipster").
- jqm 11y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't see any denigration. Just an example of human nature being human nature. I'm sure you can think of plenty more if the term "hipster" bothers you.
- tedks 11y ago
  I think this is a valid pushback against making lifestyle changes that are "something" but not meaningful, especially when this is used as a social cudgel. You don't get brownie points for rubbing other people's noses in the ineffective shit that you do in order to make yourself feel fuzzier.
  - ghettoimp 11y ago
    Anecdotally, FWIW. I've been a vegetarian for about ten years. I'm not religious, but came to this decision after a lot of thought and reflection about my own ethics. I have no illusions that my behavior will help animals, meat packers, etc.; I just wasn't comfortable being a party to that system any longer. I've been surprised, at times, that others can interpret this personal decision about my own behavior and beliefs as some "social cudgel" that I am wielding against them. I guess it doesn't take much to leap from "oh, are you a vegetarian?" to "you must think eating meat is unethical," to "you must think I'm evil for eating this burger," to "annoying snobby vegetarians, always acting superior and rubbing it in your nose." Anyway. That hipster buying his fair-trade coffee might not be doing it to insult you. It might be something he's read about, thought about, and decided he cares about. He might figure that mostly it's an empty gesture, but maybe it'll do some good. If you want to buy some other coffee, he might be totally OK with that. Of course, YMMV.
chestnut-tree 11y ago
"I always laugh when I see "fair trade coffee". Is it really fair trade? Do most people care about it?" Some people do care. Enough for an ever-growing range of products that are part of the Fairtrade scheme. In the UK, the Fairtrade logo is almost universally recognised by consumers because you can find fair trade products in just about every supermarket (obviously the number of products varies by supermarket, but even discount Supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi stock a few items). One major supermarket in the UK (Sainsbury's) sources all it's bananas under the fair trade scheme. Fair trade has its critics and perhaps the scheme fails at times to live up to its ideals, but it's still a scheme worthy of support. And I'm glad it's going strong (at least in the UK - I think other countries have their own versions). Here's an excellent blog post from the Fairtrade foundation on some common misconceptions about fair trade http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/en/media-centre/blog/2015/july/doing-good-and-doing-better http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/en/media-centre/blog/2015/july/d...

delecti 11y ago

> Ethical supply chains will become a badge of honor in the future for the upper class who can afford it The same society whose middle and lower classes are demanding ever lower prices at the cost of inhumane treatment of workers is the same society which produces the upper class you hold that hope for. I think you must be living in a different world than I am, because the upper class I'm familiar with is just as happy as everyone else to have their goods produced by the not-quite-but-almost-slave labor described in the article. I agree that this will require a cultural change, but at all levels. The upper class isn't going to jump on that any sooner than the rest of us without a major shift.

tsunamifury 11y ago
The badge of honor is, of course, meant pharisaically. The upper class I'm familiar with consumes products by people like Brunello Cucinelli who goes to great lengths to verify the ethical sourcing of his products. They eat localvorically, and in general buy ulta-high end goods that they research a bit before purchasing (because they are finicky about many aspects). This new hobby is a ultra-status conversation piece that can be traded at parties. You should be able to name the region your boat deck's teak came from, and then drop that the hunting rifle you just had hand crafted has a recovered Lebanese cedar stock that came from an old chest of drawers.
- chillaxtian 11y ago
  that's a pretty broad stroke you are applying
- jessaustin 11y ago
  I love your adverbs.
- beat 11y ago
  Ethical sourcing is privilege, yes, and status as well. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Food in particular is a source for this controversy. Over the past fifty years, the population of the planet has doubled, but food cost as a proportion of the economy has halved. This is due to the techological advances of "green revolution" agriculture - tractors, transportation, and chemical fertilizers and pesticides. But there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Cheap food comes at the price of health and environmental damage, among other things. (want slavery? Check out the chocolate supply chain.) And it's not a huge luxury to eat more ethical foods. Middle class people can afford it.

timje1 11y ago

Around half of all eggs laid in the UK come from free range hens (1) - I believe this increasing proportion is partly due to a sticker requirement to mark eggs with 'Eggs from caged hens'. I wonder what effect there would be on the electronics industry if all iPhones in the EU had to be sold with a prominent sticker 'Produced with slave labour' ? I honestly think that regulations can nudge the behaviour and expectations of 'the masses' through this kind of labelling. (1) http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/layinghens/farming http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/layinghens/far...

lucisferre 11y ago
I can just imagine how much having to mark phones "made by slaves" in a non removable way would impact sales.
- avian 11y ago
  Imagine a state passing a law requiring stickers like that, but not outright banning items known to be produced by slave labour. The message would basically be that yes, we are fully aware that some products are made with slave labour and we are OK with that (as long as it's clearly marked).
- collyw 11y ago
  Apple removed an app that hinted at that: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-approves-then-removes-app-highlighting-the-dark-side-of-iphone-manufacturing-1420937/ http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-approves-then-removes-app-hi...
tsunamifury 11y ago
I agree! I the US we have focused more on branding the positive aspects (local, organic) and socially stigmatizing the negative (e.g. labeling smoking). But as I mention above, that ends up making a class distinction more than real change.
dorfsmay 11y ago
The problem is that "free range" is easy to define. Which criteria should we label for that are meaningful in other countries across the world? Made by workers: Receiving Minimum wage (which one)? Receiving Free healthcare? Working a maximum of 8 hours / day? Over the age of 16? 18? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but defining what is acceptable is not easy. Don't forget that in most western countries no access to free healthcare would be defined as unacceptable. Also in some poor countries 14 year old "kids" have fought against anti-child labour laws because they were the only provider for their family and there is no help from the government regardless of your condition.

Laaw 11y ago

I wonder why it is we assume it's even possible to successfully maximize happiness on a global scale. Has there ever been a time in human history where slavery wasn't the fundamental backbone of a prosperous society?

framp 11y ago
Robots and automation?
- chii 11y ago
  That's yet to come to pass.
zepto 11y ago
Was here ever a time in human history when the horse wasn't the fastest way to travel?

Chlorus 11y ago

I'll bite: What happens to the poor when the inhumane supply chain that has sustained them (albeit poorly) goes away? Also, a googler complaining about slave-labor prices is rich with irony.

astazangasta 11y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that a humane system of production is impossible? The status quo or oblivion' is a terrible false dichotomy.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  It is impossible in the near term. One only needs to look at what happened when protest against child labor resulted in companies no longer using child labor in their supply chains. Ideally, those children should've been cared for by welfare, but in many places thew welfare system either wasn't there, wasn't able to handle the change, or it was too slow to aid. Many of those children ended up in a worse situation; some even changing to even worse illegal professions to survive. Now, in the long run, that will be better than just keeping the status quo. But we should remember that a quick change can be significantly worse in the short term, especially one where the focus is incorrectly applied (in these cases, the focus is on goods being produced by a child labor instead of the conditions that result in children working to begin with; ending the child labor does not end the conditions and will sometimes make things much worse).
  - brightball 11y ago
    This is an important lesson. Even the most noble of intentions come with unintended consequences. It's one thing if the situation was a matter of children being forced to work. If a kid finds work on purpose to help himself or his family eat and you suddenly make it illegal without removing the NEED for him to have to work to help his family then you've made the situation worse while instituting a policy to make yourself feel better. My view on politics as I've gotten old has gone squarely to the singular point: No complaints. No rules. Solutions or shut up.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]