7 ms·

Ask HN: Who's making $300k to $1m as a cloud engineer?

111 points by sgustard 11y ago

This article touts a pay range of $300k and up for "cloud computing engineers." Are you making this much consistently (not just from one-time stock pops), and doing what? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/technology/tech-companies-new-and-old-clamor-to-entice-cloud-computing-experts.html "Many of them are the kind of jobs that now pay $300,000 to $1 million a year." "With five years of experience, $300,000 along with a range of stock or job opportunities..." "LinkedIn or Facebook can offer an engineer with a few years’ experience a package close to $1 million"

erikcw 11y ago
Could the reporter be extrapolating from a couple of aquihires?
thrway127627 11y ago
The article seems to be using "cloud engineering" to mean what I would call "data engineering" or "distributed systems engineering". If so then the numbers they're throwing around seem high but attainable. I would call myself a "data engineer" (I build ad servers, recommendation engines, etc for clients) and have been getting offers in the low 300s for full time work with about five years of experience.
- mavelikara 11y ago
  Does the low 300s number include the value of offered equity, benefits etc? Or it is just the base salary?
  - patio11 11y ago
    I don't know what a particular recruiter told a particular reporter, but in general, benefits (including benefits with fairly calculable cash value) are generally not included in numbers in the US but base salary, anticipated bonus, and present value of restricted stock grants in public companies are generally fair things to quote at people. Does $300k sound reasonably achievable for an infrastructure engineer with a few years experience? Well... yeah, yeah, it does. Literally tens of thousands of engineers at AppAmaGooFaceSoft have that package.
    - ejcx 11y ago
      This might help support the argument I've seen you make tons of time. You can use h1b data to show real people who don't need to raise their hand on hacker news and declare their income publicly. Here's H1b data for Google and Facebook. Lots of people are above the 200k mark. Lots above 300k with options and RSUs etc, I'll wager a bet. http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=google&job=&city=&year=All http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=google&job=&city=&year=All http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook&job=&city=&year=All http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Facebook&job=&city=&year=Al...
  - thrway127627 11y ago
    It includes vesting equity, but not benefits; in other words, it's what shows up on my W2. This is usually what recruiters and employees at AmaGooFaceSoft refer to as "total comp".
    - mavelikara 11y ago
      Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense to call it "total comp" for employees at AmaGoogFaceSoft, since the stock has a liquid market.
- karterk 11y ago
  Interesting. What does your typical day look like? Does it involve a fair bit of ML/algorithms and making them scale horizontally?
  - thrway127627 11y ago
    Yep, exactly. 70% working with colleagues to design ML algorithms (which is mostly thinking of clever ways to extract features, to be honest), and 30% implementing said algorithms in a way that scales horizontally.
- smrtinsert 11y ago
  What is your background prior to working in this field?
abofh 11y ago
It's definitely possible, but typically that sort of package will be long-term employees at IPO/buy-out with an incentive-to-stay package (You just got 4MM$ from your options, but we'd like you to stick around for a couple of years, so we'll give you another 4MM package that vests over 5 years). You won't get that sort of offer at an illiquid startup (except as un-valuable options) - but it's certainly within the ballpark of reason for people hiring experienced engineers at highly profitable companies.
eranation 11y ago
I have a friend who is a cloud architect at a big-4, he is making a little more than $300k in total comp in NY (base is lower, a lot of RSUs etc), but he is more than just an engineer. He has a friend at another big-4 in NY, also a cloud architect, he is making $400k I think that the $1 million package is incorrectly calculated. This is perhaps the total package for 2-3 years, including signing bonus (vested over a couple of years) and RSUs (vested over a couple of years) Annual total compensation for any big-4 Sr software engineer with a lot of experience in SF I assume is around $300k and can get up to $500k if you are really good. I don't know of anyone who is making $1 million a year, even senior directors at big-4s. Perhaps if you are a Phd who worked at Google cloud / AWS / Azure for 5 years, wrote their software, talk at cloud conferences, wrote "Cloud computing for experts" type of books and published a seminal paper on distributed computing, then perhaps you will get a total compensation nearing that. If you are just a cloud architect at a big-4 I think the lower part makes sense in total comp, the upper bound sounds completely ridiculous. I have friends who got offers from Amazon and Google for very, very senior cloud positions, way more than "just a cloud engineer", and the total comp is around $300-$400. If the stock goes up though, then the RSUs might be worth much more. If LinkedIn / Facebook are offering engineers an annual $1 million I'll be very surprised.
- krschultz 11y ago
  Quick question, who are the "Big-4"? I count Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, and Microsoft at a minimum.
stormqloud 11y ago
A few people that get interviewed by a reporter do not make a trend. I've heard of SALES ENGINEERS making that kind of money, but not technicians. The moment a programmer is working at home remote making $300K per year, the employer will find some offshore person to do it at 10% of that price. Reference Disney and the H1B debacle etc. The only way somebody as a technician is making that much money is the company they work for hasn;t found a way to get rid of them yet and replace them with cheaper options. They can find themselves out of a job very fast at that price range. Once you do the initial setup and things are stable(documented), they will kick you to the curb and replace with $50K worker.
- ropiku 11y ago
  It's entirely possible at FB/Google/Apple/etc. They definitely have H1B employees earning that much and I'm sure they are not looking to outsource those jobs. They are looking for quality not the cheapest possible price.
  - stormqloud 11y ago
    Right up until the time the companies are asked to pay taxes. Anyone can give out $300K per year jobs when they are global monopolies that pay no income taxes in any jurisdiction. These are short term anomalies not structural jobs indicate any kind of long term trend.
    - ropiku 11y ago
      Companies pay profit tax, not income. Since employee compensation is an expense, the tax rate has nothing to do with it. The employees do pay income tax, quite a lot of it.
      - stormqloud 11y ago
        You are funny. Clearly you never owned a company before and had to do taxes and accounting. You better vote for minimum wage increases too!
montbonnot 11y ago
Include about 100K worth of stock in that 300K package, which will vest over 4 years. So your annual salary goes down to 200K + 25K (assuming the value of the stock doesn't move at all). 225K per year is slightly above what a 5y standard SWE makes here in the Bay Area working for a big guy. Really nothing exceptional here... By the way, 225K/y after income tax would be about 140-150K net income per year. Where are these $300K? :) Also, any key hire like a scientist/data analyst/PhD working in a big company would easily get $1 million offers from other big companies.
3pt14159 11y ago
I know some people at Google and Netflix that make that range. Really solid technical skills, strong communication skills, consistent productivity, and strong negotiation and you can get to $400k / year. I haven't heard of more than that outside of a couple cases (I know a couple high profile women that earn millions a year, but this is more because there aren't that many publicly visible women in the tech world) unless they're working for a hedgefund or as a sales engineer.
goldenkey 11y ago
This is a fucking joke guys. Programming is not the career job that will get you those kind of figures, if it does it sure as fuck will be more of a management position. Look guys, salaried work will never make you 'rich.' Believing it will is the same belief that a startup will succeed. You need to get out of the salary game and work for yourself or do consultantcy if you want big bucks
- SecConsult 11y ago
  People might not like your comment and have different opinions, but as person who did exactly what you said and now making around 420k/yr for cyber security consulting, I have to say, you are 100% right.
  - goldenkey 11y ago
    I am already getting downvoted for putting the truth out there. These fools like the idea that their web development job can turn into a 300k a year salaried job but its a pipedream. I am not saying those jobs don't exist. But they usually are anomalies or due to other things like a PhD.
    - SecConsult 11y ago
      I would say even with a PhD you can't make 300k/yr for web or any other development. Top notch developer's salary won't exceed 220k/yr
      - solutionyogi 11y ago
        I am really happy that you make 420k but I guarantee you that there are plenty of developers who make more than 220k. (I make more than that and in my know plenty of folks personally who make that amount) One easy to way more money than this is to work in finance space in NYC.
        nazka 11y ago
fosco 11y ago
can someone find a job posting with this type of pay scale? I am curious what skills I should develop. at this point I do not believe this unless you are the lead architect. for exaple this job posting I cannot see payin more than $165,000 in dc/ny/bay areas... but maybe my previous exposure to the big four has been limited... was anyone able to find a job posting that pays this much?
- pliftkl 11y ago
  That payscale isn't for "posted" jobs. That payscale is for "poached" jobs (no negativity implied by "poached", I just don't have a better phrase). When companies need someone who is going to cost them $500k a year, they already know who that person is.
  - fosco 11y ago
    does this mean there is an old boys club of cloud engineers that are being passed around between big companies? how else could you get an a position to be poached?
throwaway501101 11y ago
Total package includes base, stock, bonus. Lower end of that range is attainable for most. Upper-end is also attainable, either joining prior to the IPO and holding on to the stock afterwards, or by delivering outsize impact.
cjbprime 11y ago
See Dan Luu's post about working for big corps: http://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ http://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ He describes a boundary around $250k at "senior", and to get above it you'd need to become some kind of principal/lead.
JustSomeNobody 11y ago
What the heck is a "cloud computing engineer"? Is that some made-up BS like "customer service engineer"?
simonebrunozzi 11y ago
It's a joke. I can disclose that, in a recent past job as VP in a tech company, I had a very generous package which was a bit above $0.5M, all included (base, bonuses, options and RSUs) - then the stock went down (options became worth nothing, stock lost more than half its value), and the actual annual comp went down by about $70k-80k. I am sharing this here to benefit the discussion, please do not make a big thing out of it. I know it's a ton of money, but I'm pretty sure that most purely technical jobs don't surpass 300k-350k. 1M is simply foolish. Furthermore, if you consider income taxes, and the cost of living in SF, the number is still high but not as nice as it seems at first. Netflix, however, consistently pays way more than any other company in the valley - and yet, it is still an exception.
- smrtinsert 11y ago
  which tech company matters.
tsycho 11y ago
People seem to be getting confused between salary and total comp. Making 300k+ in total comp is pretty easy at the big Tech companies. Most level 5 Software Engineers make around that and there are >10 thousand of L5 SWEs at just Google; and I don't think Facebook, Microsoft etc pay any less. This might change if there is a downturn and these companies stop giving out significant annual stock refreshers since the base salary part of the 300k is only about 140-170k. But as of now, the numbers are"normal". To reach the close to 1 million level, you need to be at least a level 7, and there are very few of such. Now salary is a different matter. A 300k+ salary is very rare, and you probably need to be a director at least to command that. As you rise up the ranks, salary goes up at a much smaller rate than the annual stock grants/bonuses.
allard 11y ago
300k is 300000, 300K is 307200, 1m is 0.001, 1M is 1000000 to throw around some figures too.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
gesman 11y ago
$300k+ in total comp is quite common but usual picture is a much smaller base salary + RSU + bonus + [semi-optional] whatever + [sometimes later maybe] something-else

hardcandy 11y ago

I know of 3 SD4/principal engineers at Amazon who are making $1m/year. I believe there are only about 150-200 engineers at this level in the entire company, so it's obviously a hard position to get. Anyone with experience building out cloud infrastructure has been a hot commodity given all of the companies that are entering the market. Remember that you don't just get a great engineer but you also get the years of experience that person has gained actually building out what you yourself want them to build out for you. Some other company paid for all of the mistakes, learnings, etc. No trade secrets or confidential information but just a ton of valuable experience that the new employer benefits from day 1.

eranation 11y ago
I guess people who wrote a seminal paper on cloud computing, who do research on Xen OS and distributed computing, and generate Amazon savings / product offerings that make them billions, then they should definitely ask for more than a million. We all know that there are actors who make a million dollar per episode, but most of them don't. I think that unless you are in the "I wrote the Dremel paper for Google" or "I'm Doug Cutting and I wrote Hadoop" or "I invented MapReduce" or "I created the Xen hypervisor" then don't get your hopes up for a 1 million$ package from Google/Amazon/Microsoft. In any profession you can find top notch people who are making a million dollar annual salary. But usually it's the very top. If there are 200 engineers at this level at Amazon, let's say there are 200 like this at Google and 200 more at Microsoft Facebook and LinkedIn, e.g. there are ~1000 engineers who make 1 million dollars salaries. Let's say there are between 1-3 million software engineers in the US (excluding managers) - sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_demograph..., http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/01/IDC-software-developers so only 0.03 to 0.1% of Software Engineers make a million dollar salary. e.g. the 99.9 percentile or higher. Now compare it with doctors, lawyers, brokers, and you'll see that this is nothing to be proud of. There are about 100 actors who make more than a million dollar a year: https://www.quora.com/How-many-actors-make-more-than-a-million-dollars-per-year https://www.quora.com/How-many-actors-make-more-than-a-milli... And about 60,000 employed actors in the US http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm So about 0.166% of Actors make more than a million. More likely to make a million$ a year as an employed actor than as a software engineer? I don't know, but it's not that different. The main difference is obviously the width and height of the pyramid... Bottom line, with even $300K total comp, even in SF, I don't think life is too bad. But don't get your hopes high for much more than $500K unless you are really going to cost the company a lot if you leave to the competitors, or if you move up high into management. If you really want to make tons of money, and can sell, then move to sales, (or even presales).
- wallflower 11y ago
  > If you really want to make tons of money, and can sell, then move to sales, (or even presales). I know someone who is very successful. He was pushed into sales. After he sold his first CAT Scan machine (5% commission), he never looked back. It all goes back to are you a cost on the balance sheet or bringing revenue in...

patio11 11y ago

There are many people on HN who agree with you on this. It has a certain appeal to it; I know folks whose sense of justice is offended that some programmers make $30k while other programmers make $300k, even programmers living in the same city. There exist tens of thousands of engineers at AppAmaGooBookSoft who have pay packages which top $300k. There exist thousands whose pay package approaches $1 million. These are facts about the world you live in. I urge HNers to incorporate these facts about the world you live in into your career plans, including e.g. a pre-commitment to negotiate all job offers consistent with the knowledge that this is what the market is paying. You need to get out of the salary game and work for yourself or do consultantcy if you want big bucks It is possible to beat AppAmaGooBookSoft while working for oneself or running a consultancy. It takes a bit of doing, and isn't quite as straightforward as "get job; execute well at core job function; try to get assigned to really good projects."

pyb 11y ago
If AppAmaGooBookSoft are happy to spend that much on talent, why don't they let it be known, rather than complain about a talent shortage ?
- patio11 11y ago
  AppAmaGooBookSoft want few things more in life than for their engineers to remain really, really smart at developing distributed databases and really, really stupid at salary negotiation. They want to avoid further repricing of their entire engineering workforces at once, as that costs (literally) billions of dollars. They take substantial measures to avoid this, including (in recent memory) at least two of those companies illegally colluding against their employees to avoid those employees learning accurate facts about market clearing prices for their labor. This also helps develop cultural norms like e.g. "We're here to organize the world's information. It is Ungoogley to collect a spreadsheet about Googler salaries. That information should never be organized... by you, that is."
  - pyb 11y ago
    Mmmm... it's not clear how salary inversion would build up, when I assume every single Mountain View Googler gets multiple job opportunities a week in their inbox, presumably with salary ranges. Having said this, I'm looking at this from a distance, so who knows.
    - prodigal_erik 11y ago
      I get a ton of recruiter spam about positions which may or may not exist, but they pretty much never specify compensation.
  - sedev 11y ago
    That "[employers] want few things more in life than for their engineers to remain really, really smart at developing distributed databases and really, really stupid at salary negotiation" is one of the most valuable career-enhancing lessons a developer could possibly learn. I want to etch it into CS101 classes. Learning it late is better than learning it never, though. Well put, Patrick.
- hamburglar 11y ago
  It's not actually all that hard to find out. You apply and if you pass, you get a silly offer. It actually does happen. A year ago, I could have written the dismissive, "individual contributor engineers making that kind of money is a pipe dream" comment myself, but in the meantime I happen to have interviewed at one of the bigs and more than doubled my take-home overnight. And I was reasonably well compensated before.
  - pyb 11y ago
    Maybe not for you ;) The rest of us usually need a few weeks to prepare for these algorithms-heavy interviews. I'd rather know in advance if it's worth the trouble!
    - hamburglar 11y ago
      It's worth it. Don't worry, it took me weeks too. It really helps if you are the kind of person who actually likes doing the dumb algorithm exercises. I accidentally did something clever by interviewing at a handful of small companies I wasn't very interested in first, so I got to warm up the interview-question region of my brain.
      - pyb 11y ago
        I regularly hear these rumours, but the only actual datapoint I ever found is not that encouraging ... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aXboiWpvoOwJ:careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/103773/ios-android-software-engineer-google-deepmind%3F%26offset%3D9+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aXboiWp...
        krschultz 11y ago
        Check Glassdoor, Payscale, etc for better data than that.
        pyb 11y ago
jordanb 11y ago
patio11, I love your articles on salary negotiation and totally jive with what you're trying to do, but seven figure compensation for salaried software engineers is completely inconsistent with any evidence I've ever been able to gather. If you have actual evidence of this I'd love to see it.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  While people with outrageous pay packages exist, I seriously doubt they're your everyday resume submitters. The company has to want you to bid you up like that. Google has hired many industry luminaries that they want on payroll at least as much for their own PR as for the work those people actually perform; it's almost like an athletic sponsorship that way. I'm sure some of those guys make 500K-1000K from their "employers". In that sense, even if you're an employee, you still have to go out there and do something special and noteworthy to raise yourself to the level of a "programmer" that makes 500k+. I don't think you can demand more than 170K-200K in a moderate COL area (plus or minus as appropriate for COL adjustments) for being a normal salaried programmer, and you'd have to be quite good to get that.
- jrs235 11y ago
  I think we keep having the same misunderstanding in these HN comments. patio11 says "pay packages", not salaries. From my understanding there are loads of folks making $150,000 / yr salary with $150,000+ stock/options which means there are in fact people getting $300,000+ pay (read compensation) packages.
wallflower 11y ago
> You need to get out of the salary game and work for yourself or do consultantcy if you want big bucks This. Trading time for money does not scale. To belabor the analogy, vertical scaling (e.g. getting higher and higher positions in a company, climbing the ladder, high-end office politics) as opposed to horizontal scaling (multiple income streams, multiple revenue-generating disciplines, building your network) gives you no ownership.