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>But there is a benefit to the feeling - the drive work hard. I agree with the sorts of benefits that this feeling can induce in the best of cases. On the oth

>But there is a benefit to the feeling - the drive work hard. I agree with the sorts of benefits that this feeling can induce in the best of cases. On the other hand, I don't think that everyone really understands what "hard work" means. To the self-entitled it means "got a college education" and "show up for work every day". Well so did everyone else. I don't know, I have mixed feelings about this. I realize that this generation is getting stiffed in a sense, by circumstances beyond their control. But hey, we aren't growing up having to go to war in Europe, or during the Depression, or the Bubonic plague for that matter. So we've got that going for us, which is nice. Ever rising economic standards on a magnified level (meaning every generation is richer than the previous, not just by overall trend) doesn't seem plausible over the long-term. We need to get used to that.

beisner 11y ago
But on the third hand, defining "hard work" relatively rather than absolutely is misleading. Sure, what you described might be the norm and not exceptional, but that should not mean that its value is lessened by relative comparison. If everyone works 40 hours a week for 50 years straight, do they not deserve at least some sense of economic viability and material success in a world that is literally teeming with economic riches? I think far fewer people would be upset with mediocrity if mediocrity were comfortable.
matwood 11y ago
> On the other hand, I don't think that everyone really understands what "hard work" means. To the self-entitled it means "got a college education" and "show up for work every day". Well so did everyone else. I agree. Going to college and showing up is baseline. I do think that kids today come across as entitled, but I'm sure I was the same way at 18 years old. Having grown up helping my dad do labor type work for 2-3 jobs while trying to make ends meet, I know hard labor work. That is something I never want to have to do again. Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone. What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many. IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers. The people who would never have gone to college regardless of cost. The people who would have had great lives in a factory situation.
- fucking_tragedy 11y ago
  >Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone. This is fairly myopic and complements the common tech-centric sentiment seen around here of "Why don't you just teach yourself to program and pull in six figures? You can do it for free!" > What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many. Our current upheaval in economic relations makes it next to impossible for many to plan to make a living in the long-term. Pulling a jack-of-all-trades switch up every few years is less self-reliance and more desperation. > IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers. This has always been the case. The problem now is that what were once secure, well-paying white collar jobs no longer are. As time marches on, these degree holders are not seeing fair compensation or opportunities for a career. These people are being driven into being the new poor and blue collar working classes. And that's always been a shit place to be.
Retric 11y ago
If you look at productivity, working 'hard' is not the problem. Generation Y gets far more done for far less money. Killing off unions and free trade has been awesome for those at the top, but shit for 99% of the population.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Clearly. The 40-80% growth in real income for the bottom 50% has been terrible, in contrast to the 0-60% income growth achieved by the top 25%. https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/Inequality-and-Trump.jpg https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/...
  - Retric 11y ago
    2008 is 8 years ago right before that second dip. Clearly that chart is trying to sell you BS. "From 1948 to 1979, productivity rose 108.1 percent, and hourly compensation increased 93.4 percent. From 1979 to 2013, productivity rose 64.9 percent, and hourly compensation rose 8.2 percent." http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/ http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/ Figure 3: (1979 - 2013) Top 1% up 138% Bottom 90% up 15%.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      As far as I'm aware the World Bank doesn't collect this data very often. If you have more recent data feel free to post it. The data you are citing is restricted to a slice of the top 20% of the world. Indians and Chinese (i.e. the bottom 50% or so) don't count? Also note that you cite data on productivity for the economy as a whole, but hourly compensation only for "production and nonsupervisory workers". That's a weird comparison to make - what if the increase in productivity was caused primarily by people outside this narrow group?
      - Retric 11y ago
        I think I found the source of that chart. When we line up all individuals in the world, from the poorest to the richest. http://www.voxeu.org/article/global-income-distribution-1988 http://www.voxeu.org/article/global-income-distribution-1988 So, it says just about nothing about the US income distribution. PS: I suspect that bump is basically China + India, and the Dip is the US/EU middle class. Yes, outsourcing and free trade is great for other people.

beisner 11y ago

But on the third hand, defining "hard work" relatively rather than absolutely is misleading. Sure, what you described might be the norm and not exceptional, but that should not mean that its value is lessened by relative comparison. If everyone works 40 hours a week for 50 years straight, do they not deserve at least some sense of economic viability and material success in a world that is literally teeming with economic riches? I think far fewer people would be upset with mediocrity if mediocrity were comfortable.

matwood 11y ago

> On the other hand, I don't think that everyone really understands what "hard work" means. To the self-entitled it means "got a college education" and "show up for work every day". Well so did everyone else. I agree. Going to college and showing up is baseline. I do think that kids today come across as entitled, but I'm sure I was the same way at 18 years old. Having grown up helping my dad do labor type work for 2-3 jobs while trying to make ends meet, I know hard labor work. That is something I never want to have to do again. Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone. What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many. IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers. The people who would never have gone to college regardless of cost. The people who would have had great lives in a factory situation.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago
>Is this generation getting stiffed? There really are more opportunities now than ever before. College is simply not required for anything in IT. The rise of free online education is amazing. $5/month gets you a server on the internet that lets you start any business you can come up with. Many of the traditional barriers are gone. This is fairly myopic and complements the common tech-centric sentiment seen around here of "Why don't you just teach yourself to program and pull in six figures? You can do it for free!" > What has changed though is that people are required to be self reliant, which can be a tough thing for many. Our current upheaval in economic relations makes it next to impossible for many to plan to make a living in the long-term. Pulling a jack-of-all-trades switch up every few years is less self-reliance and more desperation. > IMO, the main people getting stiffed are the poor and blue collar workers. This has always been the case. The problem now is that what were once secure, well-paying white collar jobs no longer are. As time marches on, these degree holders are not seeing fair compensation or opportunities for a career. These people are being driven into being the new poor and blue collar working classes. And that's always been a shit place to be.

Retric 11y ago

If you look at productivity, working 'hard' is not the problem. Generation Y gets far more done for far less money. Killing off unions and free trade has been awesome for those at the top, but shit for 99% of the population.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Clearly. The 40-80% growth in real income for the bottom 50% has been terrible, in contrast to the 0-60% income growth achieved by the top 25%. https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/Inequality-and-Trump.jpg https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/...
- Retric 11y ago
  2008 is 8 years ago right before that second dip. Clearly that chart is trying to sell you BS. "From 1948 to 1979, productivity rose 108.1 percent, and hourly compensation increased 93.4 percent. From 1979 to 2013, productivity rose 64.9 percent, and hourly compensation rose 8.2 percent." http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/ http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/ Figure 3: (1979 - 2013) Top 1% up 138% Bottom 90% up 15%.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    As far as I'm aware the World Bank doesn't collect this data very often. If you have more recent data feel free to post it. The data you are citing is restricted to a slice of the top 20% of the world. Indians and Chinese (i.e. the bottom 50% or so) don't count? Also note that you cite data on productivity for the economy as a whole, but hourly compensation only for "production and nonsupervisory workers". That's a weird comparison to make - what if the increase in productivity was caused primarily by people outside this narrow group?
    - Retric 11y ago
      I think I found the source of that chart. When we line up all individuals in the world, from the poorest to the richest. http://www.voxeu.org/article/global-income-distribution-1988 http://www.voxeu.org/article/global-income-distribution-1988 So, it says just about nothing about the US income distribution. PS: I suspect that bump is basically China + India, and the Dip is the US/EU middle class. Yes, outsourcing and free trade is great for other people.