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Can a 3-year old represent herself in immigration court? This judge thinks so
- jacquesm 11y agoThat judge should be a defendant instead.
- MrQuincle 11y agoThat must be out of context. Three-year olds don't even have a fully developed theory of mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind. They confuse what they think themselves with what they think the other thinks.
- jacquesm 11y agoAccording to the article the person that said that was then repeatedly asked if they really meant it and they said they did with reference to their prior utterance. Later they back-pedaled on the statement (presumably because of the fall-out) but at the moment of the original statement they were very much aware of what they were saying and the context seems to be accurate.
- venomsnake 11y agoAnd if I told that I have live edited mission critical production code on the server, and I mean it - there are two readings - 1) I am crazy 2) My company is so broken that it was inevitable. After all - he was TEACHING them immigration law. With patience. I have no experience with USA legal system but teaching law does not seem like a item on a judge's jobs description list. The shameful part was that said kids were brought before him.
- BEEdwards 11y ago“I have to do a case-by-case basis determination,” Weil responded, before declaring that he has taught immigration law to 3- and 4-year-olds.
- jonsterling 11y agoUm, ok, but I didn't confuse what I thought with what others thought when I was 3.
- Vivtek 11y agoThere is literally no way for you to know that, because the facilities you would have needed to know it only grew in later. Your memory is not at all definitive here, because we make up memories to make things make sense, at this level.
- norea-armozel 11y agoI'll take a stab and say that at 3-4 years old I had a pretty decent idea that other people had a mind of their own. It wasn't so easily learned but oddly enough I picked it up around 3 that I knew my mind was wholly separated from my sister, mom, dad, and grand parents. I can't explain how I got the concept down I just did. A better way to explain it is that it's also when my memories become far more concrete was around 3 years old (about the time I got into Transformers and He-man. An odd way to place it but it was definitely when things got more like what they are now, before then it was a mushy blur of noise and color tbh.).
- jonsterling 11y agoThat's what you say, but the argument is circular. Not saying you're wrong---but you're not obviously right.
- zyxley 11y agoThis is crazy - which is to say, if the quotes are reasonably accurate, I would literally doubt the sanity of the person who said them. "I can teach a three-year-old immigration law sufficient to represent themselves in court" is about on the same level as "I can cure cancer by hopping on one foot and squinting real hard" or "the Earth is actually hollow and the inside is inhabited by escaped Nazis".
- nefitty 11y agoThere are some equally irrational, sincerely held, if not more ridiculous, beliefs out there: Flat earth society: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ James H. Fetzer's entire career after 1990: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fetzer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fetzer Should I continue with links? Because that last one really bums me out beyond belief. Fetzer seriously seems like a body that inherited the respect of an intellectual but deteriorated under the stress of an undiagnosed paranoid psychosis.
- themartorana 11y agoI'm honestly having difficulty understanding if the Flat Earth Society is a elaborate and hilarious troll, or, well... It's almost too scary to consider the alternative... Are there actually people that believe the earth is flat, and anything else is a conspiracy??
- graeme 11y agoThere was an elaborate flat earth society parody in Canada for a few decades. I saw an exhibit at the art gallery in my hometown. Maybe this is a continuation/something similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies#Canadian_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies#Ca...
- user_0001 11y agoHuman beings are not rational . Take the popularity of religion for example. Trumps your "flat earth society" by several hundred levels of magnitude
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- digi_owl 11y agoOr perhaps file them as having a delusional disorder.
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- Manishearth 11y ago> And it makes deportation literally impossible. Why? The argument is about giving them (taxpayer funded) court appointed lawyers. The worst that can happen here is that someone gets a lawyer. Meh. Sure, misrepresentation of age might be a problem as far as deportation etc are concerned, but that's completely orthogonal to what's being discussed here.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- DanBC 11y ago(Now deleted parent post (that Manishearth replies to) claimed large numbers of adults lie about their age and claim to be children in order to get advantageous treatment. > We have a flood of unaccompanied 9 years old with beards. It's a bit more complicated than that. Many children, (genuinely children, under 16) declare themselves to be adults. They do this because if they are identified as children they are taken to camps. http://www.irinnews.org/analysis/2015/07/27 http://www.irinnews.org/analysis/2015/07/27 > The youthfulness of the faces is striking. Many fled Eritrea to avoid being conscripted into indefinite military service, but none will admit to being under 18 for fear the authorities will place them in a centre for unaccompanied migrant children, dashing their hopes of reaching northern Europe. > The EU’s Dublin Regulation means that once fingerprinted in Italy, they would have to remain in the country while their asylum claims are being processed or risk being returned there. Countries in northern Europe, however, may hold better job potential, better asylum odds or even the chance of being reunited with family members. The camps are not pleasant. There is considerable abuse that happens in the detention centres. http://www.irinnews.org/report/100741/migrant-detention-abuse-can-scar-children-life http://www.irinnews.org/report/100741/migrant-detention-abus...
- DanBC 11y agoJust checking: Is the judge saying that you should listen to the views of children, even very young children, during court cases about those children? (Because that seems reasonable, so long as those children also have full and proper representation from skilled qualified legal professionals). Or is the judge actually saying that the children don't need lawyers?
- gambiting 11y agoThe latter. He's saying that the American taxpayer should not pay for lawyers for immigrant children, and he goes as far as to say that he personally trained 3 and 4 year old children in immigration law to a point where they could defend themselves in court.
- MikeNomad 11y agoSince I am not a lawyer, could someone please explain (given the subject, perhaps, "Explain like I am five") how this bit from the article: "Unlike in felony criminal cases in federal court, children charged with violating immigration laws have no right to appointed counsel, even though the government is represented by Department of Homeland Security attorneys." is allowed when we have this (from a Wikipedia entry)? "The Sixth Amendment (Amendment VI) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that sets forth rights related to criminal prosecutions. The Supreme Court has applied the protections of this amendment to the states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."
- rst 11y agoThe Bill of Rights is taken to apply with full force only to US Citizens. The kids aren't.
- briandear 11y agoThat isn't true. The sixth amendment relates to criminal law and not civil proceedings. The Constitution applies to everyone in the United States. Plenty of cases of illegal aliens have been thrown out due to Miranda violations, etc but a deportation hearing is civil.
- ikeboy 11y agoSeems more complicated. The criminal amendments apply, but the second is disputed. http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-yes-illegal-aliens-have-constitutional-rights http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-yes... https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/24/ilegal-aliens-have-second-amendment-righ https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/24/ilegal-aliens-have-second... https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/12/court-illegal-aliens-dont-have-2nd-amendment-rights/ https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/12/court-illegal-ali...
- zeckalpha 11y agoIf so, then why do we use Guantanamo Bay to house people we don't want to have constitutional rights?
- bakhy 11y agoit seems like the judge who made these preposterous claims stands to lose budget if these children had the right to council? which they should, of course, have. > Weil is not just any immigration official. As an assistant chief immigration judge in EOIR’s Office of the Chief Immigration Judge — which sets and oversees policies for the nation’s 58 immigration courts — he is responsible for coordinating the Justice Department’s training of immigration judges.
- marmaduke 11y agoThis was taken out of context, wè havé no idea what he meant. The judge may dislike such a situation and compensate for it by trying to teach the children the law. He mentioned it's inefficient, perhaps in the context of an argument that it would be cheaper to pay for the children's legal representative than waste all that time teaching them the law. Just another spin on a quote out of context.
- chishaku 11y agoFull transcript: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/jefm-v-lynch-deposition-honorable-jack-h-weil https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/jefm-v-lynch-deposition-... The comments in question start on page 18. --- Q. It must be true that there's some children that are so young that even if they receive the notice and even if they're given an explanation by the judge, they're still not going to understand what's going on right? A. I have to do a case-by-case basis determination. I've taught immigration law literally to three year olds and four year olds. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of patience. They get it. It's not the most efficient, but it can be done. Q. I understand that you think it can be done. Are you aware of any experts in child psychology or comparable experts who agree with the assessment that three and four year olds ca be taught immigration law A. I haven't read any studies one way or another. Q. What about like a one year old? A. I mean, I think there's a point that there has to be communication. There has to be communication at some point. Q. So what do you train judges as to cases in which communication is impossible because the child is too young? A. What we train is if a respondent, child or adult, cannot perform functions necessary for the hearing to be fair, the judge should not proceed.
- venomsnake 11y agoI read it as a judge going onion. The fact that he teaches them means that they do have need for council. The fact that it is inefficient is "look at the stupid shit I have to do, to be able to do my job" I may be wrong of course. But after all if the system wanted to protect said 3 years old - they would not have gone to hearing anyway. Btw - can't the kids get protection under cruel and unusual punishment?
- sotoer 11y ago"Btw - can't the kids get protection under cruel and unusual punishment?" I would think so. Particularly after being required to learn US immigration law.
- maxlybbert 11y ago> can't the kids get protection under cruel and unusual punishment? It's possible to be declared a refugee if you can prove you'll be persecuted in your home country for any number of reasons (gender, religion, ethnic group, etc.). I have no idea how difficult it is to do that.
- jrockway 11y agoOh why did I read the comments section on that article. Why is everyone so afraid of immigration? I don't see the downside. We need to grow our tax base to support all of our borrowing against future tax revenue. There are two ways to do that: have kids, or allow immigration. I always hear the argument "they're taking our jobs", but that's not true, is it? As the economy gets larger because of the influx of people, more jobs become available. Watching this year's Presidential election makes me think I'm really out of touch with reality, living in a large city. But maybe everyone else is wrong and I'm right... And even if you're afraid of immigration, why is allowing everyone to have fair representation in court so unappealing? I thought the whole point of America is that everyone is equal and everyone has a chance. That includes non-citizens; our laws apply, so our guarantee of a right to a fair trial should also apply. That's what separates us from North Korea, right?
- mc32 11y agoThere are different kinds of immigrants. There are ones who immediately add to the economy, typically professionals, and there are the uneducated undereducated who have low skills no skills whose contribution can take much longer to realize. Many countries want the highly skilled to immigrate, and conversely countries don't want them to emigrate (brain drain). No one country with low skills emigrants puts of a fuss to keep them, they are happy to let them go and they have no concern about lowering population or concern for potential tax base loss. In the end the question is, do you want to regulate immigration or just let anyone and everyone in? There is no reason to have two tracks where the ones who want to go the legal way have to wait years while others can just go the alternate route with few consequences. And, w/re Mexico, they also deport a good number of illegal immigrants into their country, so it's not like they think one way and the US an Europe and Japan and China etc. think another way.
- gclaramunt 11y agoI wouldn't immediately discard the economic advantage of having a cheap labor pool...
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- sandworm101 11y agoAmericans like to believe that there exists some bright line between citizens and non-citizens. As a US lawyer, I'll tell you there is no such line. There are dozens of different classes of citizenship, each with a unique set of rights. These kids are at the bottom of that list. The world is most aware of the two highest-level citizenship classes, specifically the line between natural and naturalized citizens. The former is the higher, with the later not being allowed certain high offices (ie being president) and that their citizenship can be stripped. The next set of lines is between citizens of states (Ohio et al) and those residing in non-states such as DC, Guam and like territories. Such non-state citizens have various subset voting right depending on local. Some cannot serve on juries. The next line down are people like convicted felons (non-voting) children (can be forced into delinquency proceedings) and members of the military (subject to different laws/courts). Some jurists would even list males as a subset since, unlike females, males are subject to selective service rules and can therefore be forced into the previous class. At the bottom of this pile are these kids. Non-state non-citizens, under-age without guardians, the are treated like chattel (property). Their deportation proceedings read like the comical cases brought against property seized at boarder crossings (civil forfeiture). But even non-sentient objects, specifically guns, sometimes have the right to representation. Any US person facing criminal conviction is due adequate representation, but not facing criminal action and not being a citizen of any state or territory, the US justice system has little respect for these kids. Don't like it? There is an election coming up.
- jack9 11y agoThere's one citizen type in-between the natural and naturalized (and below), it's the natural citizen in a US Territory. No votes for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CesHr99ezWE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CesHr99ezWE
- sandworm101 11y agoYup. I did some quick notes and stopped after ten different classes. There are certainly dozens.
- tarikjn 11y ago
- Joof 11y agoLearning milestones for age 3-4 by WebMD: http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/3-to-4-year-old-milestones http://www.webmd.com/parenting/guide/3-to-4-year-old-milesto... Some fun milestones: - Understand the idea of same and different - Follow 3 part commands - Sort objects by shape and color Yeah, that's pretty much all you need right? A judge may ask, for example, if the child wants to leave the country voluntarily or would rather be ordered deported. If the child chooses either option, he or she cannot apply for other forms of immigration relief such as asylum in the United States. Nope, they're fucked. Most adults probably have difficulty with this one.
- known 11y agowtf
- xg15 11y agoWhat I find more shocking than the incident is its background: According to Justice Department figures, 42 percent of the more than 20,000 unaccompanied children involved in deportation proceedings completed between July 2014 and late December had no attorney [...] Susan J. Terrio, a Georgetown University anthropology professor, said she observed hundreds of children in various immigration court proceedings, many of whom couldn’t speak English, [...] Some were as young as 10. They “were incredibly passive,” she said. And “they responded with monosyllabic answers. So, if I read this correctly, it's already common practice in the US to have children put in court, without any aid or counsel and expect them to have a conversation with judges and attorneys about immigration law? Is this actually true?
- norea-armozel 11y agoIt seems better than treating the child as property, but honestly I don't think the child should be forced to represent themselves w/o counsel. In fact, I honestly wonder why our immigration and deportation laws don't have a requirement to have legal counsel automatically assigned to children if their legal parents are not present. At that point, if they have parents then their parents should have some legal counsel to represent all affected. Either way, I just think this seems down right fishy for any judge to do mostly because it's a conflict of interest. Plus, children are easily manipulated into saying things they don't mean or never experienced. So, I'd rather the judge not have that power to manipulate children. If they must be deported then at least deport them w/ the proper authorities of their native country so they can be cared for. Otherwise, this just seems...weird.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoRemember these children are a special category, with almost no rights. To fix this, we'd have to extend American rights to minor people of other countries, which is about the largest stretch I can imagine.
- norea-armozel 11y agoDidn't the US refuse to sign the UN declaration of Child Rights?