10 ms·

Airbnb Pits Neighbor Against Neighbor in Tourist-Friendly New Orleans

71 points by geebee 11y ago

dangoldin 11y ago
What stuck out is how much emphasis there is on the difficulty of building out support for local policies at a product/service level and pushing the onus onto the host. On the flip side you have Uber which is succeeding by working through the local policies. The apps themselves have functionality that's location specific (think Eats in NYC but not in NJ). I do think Airbnb is using the local policies as an excuse and can do more to make themselves more acceptable to cities.
- abannin 11y ago
  No only "can do" but "must do". Widespread legislation will come. AirBnB needs to invest heavily in building goodwill with municipalities, else they will not be at the table when the legislation is being written. They spent a ton of cash playing defense against Prop F in SF, but they won't be able to afford to put up the same fight in every city.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > They spent a ton of cash playing defense against Prop F in SF, but they won't be able to afford to put up the same fight in every city. Good. Local legislation should be determined by local voters, not AirBnB.
    - abannin 11y ago
      I think I wasn't clear on the point. They need to communicate their story and the value of the service in every market, as well as start addressing the concerns proactively. There seems to be much more organization from the anit-AirBnB side than the pro-AirBnB side, so they should be investing much more in organization and lobbying as well. Local legislation is always determined by local voters, which is why they need to be seriously investing in a grass roots infrastructure.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >There seems to be much more organization from the anit-AirBnB side than the pro-AirBnB side Kidding, right? http://observer.com/2014/07/hiding-in-plain-sight-what-airbnb-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-new-lobbying-firm/ http://observer.com/2014/07/hiding-in-plain-sight-what-airbn...
        abannin 11y ago
        I'm not describing 'astroturfing', but rather investing in a grassroots infrastructure. AirBnB wins on legislation when voters want AirBnB. I will agree that while 'astroturfing' best describes AirBnB's current approach to the problem, it is very expensive with limited effectiveness. The NFL is a wonderful counter example here. They employ every tactic possible for getting new stadiums, but nothing is as effective as the outcry from the public over the possibility of losing their football team. The anti-AirBnB side is absolutely better organized. Why else would AirBnB have to outspend them >10x to stop Prop F?
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > The anti-AirBnB side is absolutely better organized. Why else would AirBnB have to outspend them >10x to stop Prop F? Perhaps its not about organization? Perhaps the anti-AirBnB side is simply in the right?
        abannin 11y ago
        Or perhaps they're in the wrong? Are you proposing that right and wrong can be determined by measuring political influence? That seems a bit frightening.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        "Local legislation is always determined by local voters, which is why they need to be seriously investing in a grass roots infrastructure." What you're describing is "astroturfing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing AirBnB provides no benefit to local voters and communities, except to the hosts putting the guests up. Possibly hotel tax revenue, which would've been realized regardless through traditional hotel bookings.
- dominotw 11y ago
  >I do think Airbnb is using the local policies as an excuse and can do more to make themselves more acceptable to cities. What about the fact the I just would never feel comfortable with strangers walking in and out of my condo building. And I'd imagine this would be case for communities with childeren, people wouldn't want random people from the internet walking around their houses. Thats why there are specific laws and regulations around where hotels can operate. Would the proposition to the cities that could offer their citizens more more money ( is this proven?) by sacrificing quality of life?
  - superuser2 11y ago
    Perhaps there is an argument that you're entitled to a relatively stable set of neighbors, so that you can get to know them and learn which ones to avoid. But you certainly don't get to choose your neighbors. The US went down that path in the 50s: massive and hugely oppressive racial segregation whose echoes are still being felt. You are not entitled to decide who does and doesn't walk near your property, only on your property. I don't feel comfortable sharing a country with Trump supporters, but that doesn't mean I get to prevent them from finding housing.
    - JohnTHaller 11y ago
      There is an argument that you're allowed to have a stable set of neighbors. We made it and codified it into law which says that you can't do short term rentals within long term rental units. Even if your lease says it's ok, it's still against the law. That's why all those whole unit apartment rentals you see in NYC are illegal unless the person offering it has a bed and breakfast license for the space. AirBnB won't tell you that your rental is illegal even though they know it is. The illegal whole apartment rentals is how they get most of their revenue in NYC.
    - hkmurakami 11y ago
      Isn't that how NYC co-ops work?
      - superuser2 11y ago
kdkooo 11y ago
How is it that "city officials acknowledge that New Orleans simply does not have the resources to enforce this rule — given the 2,400 to 4,000 short-term rental listings on various services", but they had the resources to find those numbers?
- themartorana 11y ago
  Search "New Orleans" on a series of short-term rental sites, add numbers together, grab a cup of coffee, it's still 8:59 am?
- MichaelBurge 11y ago
  The same way I don't have time to collect a sample of every beetle in existence, but do know that there are about 400,000 species of beetle: I asked Google and it told me the answer.
dclowd9901 11y ago
One of the most memorable aspects of my recent Airbnb interview: most of the interviewers I talked to lamented that Airbnb wasn't "legal" everywhere. I don't think that's their biggest problem. Let's pretend for a moment Airbnb wanted to really bring value to travelers, hosts AND communities. What would they do to ensure the community at large benefitted? I have some ideas, mainly around ensuring users aren't listing more than one property and that neighbors of a listing have a way to veto a listing. But I'm getting the impression they don't really have a concern for the community. Which is ironic because their next play seems to be bringing a more cultural experience to Airbnb travel. It would be pretty hard to give someone a good cultural experience if they arrived at their Airbnb space and everyone in the neighborhood was ready to give the visitor the stink eye. Given most people are not Airbnb hosts, I have to imagine unless the company does some major community outreach in the next few years, they're gonna run afoul of some grassroots headwind.
- username223 11y ago
  > I'm getting the impression they don't really have a concern for the community. Of course they don't. Their "sharing economy" BS is just short-term regulatory capture as a business model: pull together enough money to buy off various politicians, change the laws to suit their business practices, and let someone else deal with the consequences. See the extractive industries and subsequent Superfund sites.
  - greenleafjacob 11y ago
    I think that's a bit hyperbolic. Whatever "damage" AirBNB guests cause to the local community, it surely ends after they leave.
    - JohnTHaller 11y ago
      Most of the AirBnB "guests" people have issue with are immediately followed by other AirBnB "guests". Repeat. Repeat. Your once quiet apartment building is now a hotel with a stream of "guests" who treat it as disposable instead of as a home.
reustle 11y ago
I just checked out of an airbnb this morning in Bangkok that had signs posted all over the lobby and elevator that this was NOT a hotel and that if you are caught and not a resident you will be taken to the police. It was pretty uncomfortable watching over your shoulder every time you entered as the security guards eye you up and down. Obviously, the listing didn't mention anything about this. Edit: here is the sign http://i.imgur.com/dAczEnt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dAczEnt.jpg
- brianwawok 11y ago
  Wow I would not sleep well there.
- jonlucc 11y ago
  I wonder what happens if you report to the "juristic person office"? Do they get you a different accommodation and go after the AirBnB host?
  - smelendez 11y ago
    Unlikely--sounds like "juristic person" is basically a type of corporation(http://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/65-136-juristic-persons-association-and-foundation http://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/6...), so it's probably the building manager's office. They'd probably tell you to get off the premises ASAP and move to evict your host.
- zaidf 11y ago
  Pretty sure if you called airbnb, they would have arranged alternate accommodation.
- lode 11y ago
  I've had that in Los Angeles as well. "If you see any people just tell them you're friends of Matt visiting. My condo ownership rules forbid renting out/Airbnb."
abannin 11y ago
The greatest irony is that the founders love to preach "Do things that don't scale". Nothing scales worse then working through legislation with cities around the world, so this should be top priority for them, right?
- leereeves 11y ago
  That's advice for helping newborn startups grow, not for designing late-stage business models.
  - abannin 11y ago
    Not sure if this statement is sarcastic or not, I could read it either way. So I'm going to respond as if it's not a joke. The heart of the advice is to start solving problems that are hard to solve, and worry about scalability and efficiency after you've proven there is a demand. Often you will find creative ways to gain efficiency, build the infrastructure, and then have a wonderful competitive moat for the business. The big exception is customer service, there is no replacing being able to talk to a helpful person within 60 seconds of encountering a problem, but it's much more expensive to parallelize people then software. In the case of legislation, getting on offense and working with a few cities will go a long way for establishing a precedent that other cities will follow. Uber was rather effective in this area.
    - leereeves 11y ago
      I meant it seriously, based on PG's essay. http://paulgraham.com/ds.html http://paulgraham.com/ds.html Startups take off because the founders make them take off. There may be a handful that just grew by themselves, but usually it takes some sort of push to get them going. The most common unscalable thing founders have to do at the start is to recruit users manually. For as long as they could (which turned out to be surprisingly long), Wufoo sent each new user a hand-written thank you note. [Meraki] got started by doing something that really doesn't scale: assembling their routers themselves. When you only have a small number of users, you can sometimes get away with doing by hand things that you plan to automate later.
wpietri 11y ago
This is absurd: > Officials of Airbnb and VRBO (Vacation Rentals by Owner, a HomeAway brand that is popular in New Orleans) point out that they operate in so many places they cannot possibly get into the specifics of local policy; they are merely private businesses offering services to consumers. Operating in so many places has never stopped chain restaurants or chain stores from getting into the specifics of local policy. I have no idea how they square this with the standard Silicon Valley notion that we can solve any problem with some technology and a little elbow grease. Every time an AirBnB spokesperson opens their mouth, I become more reluctant to use them despite previously being a happy early adopter.
- Fomite 11y ago
  > Operating in so many places has never stopped chain restaurants or chain stores from getting into the specifics of local policy. This. "cannot possibly" should be read as "can't be bothered"
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Definitely. If their CEO would get up there, say, "Honestly, we just don't give a fuck about local regulations," and make dismissive wanking motions, I'd have more respect for them.
superuser2 11y ago
I always find it strange that rentals of several weeks to several months are banned (or people try to ban them) in so many places. What do you do with interns? You're obviously not going to pay them enough to live in a hotel. They're obviously not going to sign 12-month leases. It seems like there are people who legitimately need to live somewhere for several months at a reasonable price, and are neither tourists nor residents. Did the Prop F people just want all the tech companies to stop hiring interns, and all the universities to stop having visiting scholars, etc?
- dawhizkid 11y ago
  Nothing weird about it. It's to protect the host/landlord. If you rent out a place to someone for 30 or more days in many jurisdictions that person will have long-term tenant rights and it's much much harder to legally kick them out.
- devit 11y ago
  The real issue is: why do hotels cost so much? It's just a normal room, so renting an hotel room for 30 days should cost as much as the rent of an N room apartment shared with N people, but somehow costs can be 3-10 times more. For instance, typical prices can be 300$ for renting a cheap shared apartment room for a month while the cheapest hotel rooms costs 50$, while they should instead cost 300/30 = 10$. That's why people use AirBnB and share apartments with roommates for more long term stays, otherwise everyone would just live in hotel rooms, which would be far more efficient and reasonable. I suspect the problem might be government regulation.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >The real issue is: why do hotels cost so much? Do you see AirBnb lobbying to eliminate hotel taxes?
    - justincormack 11y ago
      Hotel taxes are not the reason rates are so high. One reason is low average occupancy, another is a lot of people dont pay the list price, and get discounted rates, while others pay more, for additional services, so there is a fair amount of price discrimination going on.
danepowell 11y ago
It seems like a lot of these problems could be solved by better enforcement of existing laws, rather than creation of new ones. For instance, the article has a picture of trash piled up on the sidewalk in front of an AirBnB. Surely there are existing laws or regulations against this. People often mention noise from short-term rentals, there are regulations against this too. The benefits of better enforcement would extend beyond short-term rentals as well, and improve quality of life for all residents. Other issues, like the "vomit covered floors", seem like strictly private issues to be handled between the host, guest, and possibly the mediation of the rental site. I'm not saying that better enforcement should be the only solution (it can't deal with larger issues like elevated property prices), but it should certainly be a large part of it.
- nradov 11y ago
  Better enforcement costs money. Who is going to pay for it? These neighborhoods didn't have such serious problems before so it seems unreasonable that they have to pay for more enforcement just to maintain their quality of life.
jacquesm 11y ago
And in Amsterdam as well.

71 points by geebee 11y ago

What stuck out is how much emphasis there is on the difficulty of building out support for local policies at a product/service level and pushing the onus onto the host. On the flip side you have Uber which is succeeding by working through the local policies. The apps themselves have functionality that's location specific (think Eats in NYC but not in NJ). I do think Airbnb is using the local policies as an excuse and can do more to make themselves more acceptable to cities.

abannin 11y ago
No only "can do" but "must do". Widespread legislation will come. AirBnB needs to invest heavily in building goodwill with municipalities, else they will not be at the table when the legislation is being written. They spent a ton of cash playing defense against Prop F in SF, but they won't be able to afford to put up the same fight in every city.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > They spent a ton of cash playing defense against Prop F in SF, but they won't be able to afford to put up the same fight in every city. Good. Local legislation should be determined by local voters, not AirBnB.
  - abannin 11y ago
    I think I wasn't clear on the point. They need to communicate their story and the value of the service in every market, as well as start addressing the concerns proactively. There seems to be much more organization from the anit-AirBnB side than the pro-AirBnB side, so they should be investing much more in organization and lobbying as well. Local legislation is always determined by local voters, which is why they need to be seriously investing in a grass roots infrastructure.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >There seems to be much more organization from the anit-AirBnB side than the pro-AirBnB side Kidding, right? http://observer.com/2014/07/hiding-in-plain-sight-what-airbnb-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-new-lobbying-firm/ http://observer.com/2014/07/hiding-in-plain-sight-what-airbn...
      - abannin 11y ago
        I'm not describing 'astroturfing', but rather investing in a grassroots infrastructure. AirBnB wins on legislation when voters want AirBnB. I will agree that while 'astroturfing' best describes AirBnB's current approach to the problem, it is very expensive with limited effectiveness. The NFL is a wonderful counter example here. They employ every tactic possible for getting new stadiums, but nothing is as effective as the outcry from the public over the possibility of losing their football team. The anti-AirBnB side is absolutely better organized. Why else would AirBnB have to outspend them >10x to stop Prop F?
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > The anti-AirBnB side is absolutely better organized. Why else would AirBnB have to outspend them >10x to stop Prop F? Perhaps its not about organization? Perhaps the anti-AirBnB side is simply in the right?
        abannin 11y ago
        Or perhaps they're in the wrong? Are you proposing that right and wrong can be determined by measuring political influence? That seems a bit frightening.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      "Local legislation is always determined by local voters, which is why they need to be seriously investing in a grass roots infrastructure." What you're describing is "astroturfing": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing AirBnB provides no benefit to local voters and communities, except to the hosts putting the guests up. Possibly hotel tax revenue, which would've been realized regardless through traditional hotel bookings.
dominotw 11y ago
>I do think Airbnb is using the local policies as an excuse and can do more to make themselves more acceptable to cities. What about the fact the I just would never feel comfortable with strangers walking in and out of my condo building. And I'd imagine this would be case for communities with childeren, people wouldn't want random people from the internet walking around their houses. Thats why there are specific laws and regulations around where hotels can operate. Would the proposition to the cities that could offer their citizens more more money ( is this proven?) by sacrificing quality of life?
- superuser2 11y ago
  Perhaps there is an argument that you're entitled to a relatively stable set of neighbors, so that you can get to know them and learn which ones to avoid. But you certainly don't get to choose your neighbors. The US went down that path in the 50s: massive and hugely oppressive racial segregation whose echoes are still being felt. You are not entitled to decide who does and doesn't walk near your property, only on your property. I don't feel comfortable sharing a country with Trump supporters, but that doesn't mean I get to prevent them from finding housing.
  - JohnTHaller 11y ago
    There is an argument that you're allowed to have a stable set of neighbors. We made it and codified it into law which says that you can't do short term rentals within long term rental units. Even if your lease says it's ok, it's still against the law. That's why all those whole unit apartment rentals you see in NYC are illegal unless the person offering it has a bed and breakfast license for the space. AirBnB won't tell you that your rental is illegal even though they know it is. The illegal whole apartment rentals is how they get most of their revenue in NYC.
  - hkmurakami 11y ago
    Isn't that how NYC co-ops work?
    - superuser2 11y ago

kdkooo 11y ago

How is it that "city officials acknowledge that New Orleans simply does not have the resources to enforce this rule — given the 2,400 to 4,000 short-term rental listings on various services", but they had the resources to find those numbers?

themartorana 11y ago
Search "New Orleans" on a series of short-term rental sites, add numbers together, grab a cup of coffee, it's still 8:59 am?
MichaelBurge 11y ago
The same way I don't have time to collect a sample of every beetle in existence, but do know that there are about 400,000 species of beetle: I asked Google and it told me the answer.

dclowd9901 11y ago

One of the most memorable aspects of my recent Airbnb interview: most of the interviewers I talked to lamented that Airbnb wasn't "legal" everywhere. I don't think that's their biggest problem. Let's pretend for a moment Airbnb wanted to really bring value to travelers, hosts AND communities. What would they do to ensure the community at large benefitted? I have some ideas, mainly around ensuring users aren't listing more than one property and that neighbors of a listing have a way to veto a listing. But I'm getting the impression they don't really have a concern for the community. Which is ironic because their next play seems to be bringing a more cultural experience to Airbnb travel. It would be pretty hard to give someone a good cultural experience if they arrived at their Airbnb space and everyone in the neighborhood was ready to give the visitor the stink eye. Given most people are not Airbnb hosts, I have to imagine unless the company does some major community outreach in the next few years, they're gonna run afoul of some grassroots headwind.

username223 11y ago
> I'm getting the impression they don't really have a concern for the community. Of course they don't. Their "sharing economy" BS is just short-term regulatory capture as a business model: pull together enough money to buy off various politicians, change the laws to suit their business practices, and let someone else deal with the consequences. See the extractive industries and subsequent Superfund sites.
- greenleafjacob 11y ago
  I think that's a bit hyperbolic. Whatever "damage" AirBNB guests cause to the local community, it surely ends after they leave.
  - JohnTHaller 11y ago
    Most of the AirBnB "guests" people have issue with are immediately followed by other AirBnB "guests". Repeat. Repeat. Your once quiet apartment building is now a hotel with a stream of "guests" who treat it as disposable instead of as a home.

reustle 11y ago

I just checked out of an airbnb this morning in Bangkok that had signs posted all over the lobby and elevator that this was NOT a hotel and that if you are caught and not a resident you will be taken to the police. It was pretty uncomfortable watching over your shoulder every time you entered as the security guards eye you up and down. Obviously, the listing didn't mention anything about this. Edit: here is the sign http://i.imgur.com/dAczEnt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dAczEnt.jpg

brianwawok 11y ago
Wow I would not sleep well there.
jonlucc 11y ago
I wonder what happens if you report to the "juristic person office"? Do they get you a different accommodation and go after the AirBnB host?
- smelendez 11y ago
  Unlikely--sounds like "juristic person" is basically a type of corporation(http://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/65-136-juristic-persons-association-and-foundation http://www.thailandlawonline.com/civil-and-commercial-code/6...), so it's probably the building manager's office. They'd probably tell you to get off the premises ASAP and move to evict your host.
zaidf 11y ago
Pretty sure if you called airbnb, they would have arranged alternate accommodation.
lode 11y ago
I've had that in Los Angeles as well. "If you see any people just tell them you're friends of Matt visiting. My condo ownership rules forbid renting out/Airbnb."

abannin 11y ago

The greatest irony is that the founders love to preach "Do things that don't scale". Nothing scales worse then working through legislation with cities around the world, so this should be top priority for them, right?

leereeves 11y ago
That's advice for helping newborn startups grow, not for designing late-stage business models.
- abannin 11y ago
  Not sure if this statement is sarcastic or not, I could read it either way. So I'm going to respond as if it's not a joke. The heart of the advice is to start solving problems that are hard to solve, and worry about scalability and efficiency after you've proven there is a demand. Often you will find creative ways to gain efficiency, build the infrastructure, and then have a wonderful competitive moat for the business. The big exception is customer service, there is no replacing being able to talk to a helpful person within 60 seconds of encountering a problem, but it's much more expensive to parallelize people then software. In the case of legislation, getting on offense and working with a few cities will go a long way for establishing a precedent that other cities will follow. Uber was rather effective in this area.
  - leereeves 11y ago
    I meant it seriously, based on PG's essay. http://paulgraham.com/ds.html http://paulgraham.com/ds.html Startups take off because the founders make them take off. There may be a handful that just grew by themselves, but usually it takes some sort of push to get them going. The most common unscalable thing founders have to do at the start is to recruit users manually. For as long as they could (which turned out to be surprisingly long), Wufoo sent each new user a hand-written thank you note. [Meraki] got started by doing something that really doesn't scale: assembling their routers themselves. When you only have a small number of users, you can sometimes get away with doing by hand things that you plan to automate later.

wpietri 11y ago

This is absurd: > Officials of Airbnb and VRBO (Vacation Rentals by Owner, a HomeAway brand that is popular in New Orleans) point out that they operate in so many places they cannot possibly get into the specifics of local policy; they are merely private businesses offering services to consumers. Operating in so many places has never stopped chain restaurants or chain stores from getting into the specifics of local policy. I have no idea how they square this with the standard Silicon Valley notion that we can solve any problem with some technology and a little elbow grease. Every time an AirBnB spokesperson opens their mouth, I become more reluctant to use them despite previously being a happy early adopter.

Fomite 11y ago
> Operating in so many places has never stopped chain restaurants or chain stores from getting into the specifics of local policy. This. "cannot possibly" should be read as "can't be bothered"
- wpietri 11y ago
  Definitely. If their CEO would get up there, say, "Honestly, we just don't give a fuck about local regulations," and make dismissive wanking motions, I'd have more respect for them.

superuser2 11y ago

I always find it strange that rentals of several weeks to several months are banned (or people try to ban them) in so many places. What do you do with interns? You're obviously not going to pay them enough to live in a hotel. They're obviously not going to sign 12-month leases. It seems like there are people who legitimately need to live somewhere for several months at a reasonable price, and are neither tourists nor residents. Did the Prop F people just want all the tech companies to stop hiring interns, and all the universities to stop having visiting scholars, etc?

dawhizkid 11y ago
Nothing weird about it. It's to protect the host/landlord. If you rent out a place to someone for 30 or more days in many jurisdictions that person will have long-term tenant rights and it's much much harder to legally kick them out.
devit 11y ago
The real issue is: why do hotels cost so much? It's just a normal room, so renting an hotel room for 30 days should cost as much as the rent of an N room apartment shared with N people, but somehow costs can be 3-10 times more. For instance, typical prices can be 300$ for renting a cheap shared apartment room for a month while the cheapest hotel rooms costs 50$, while they should instead cost 300/30 = 10$. That's why people use AirBnB and share apartments with roommates for more long term stays, otherwise everyone would just live in hotel rooms, which would be far more efficient and reasonable. I suspect the problem might be government regulation.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >The real issue is: why do hotels cost so much? Do you see AirBnb lobbying to eliminate hotel taxes?
  - justincormack 11y ago
    Hotel taxes are not the reason rates are so high. One reason is low average occupancy, another is a lot of people dont pay the list price, and get discounted rates, while others pay more, for additional services, so there is a fair amount of price discrimination going on.

danepowell 11y ago

It seems like a lot of these problems could be solved by better enforcement of existing laws, rather than creation of new ones. For instance, the article has a picture of trash piled up on the sidewalk in front of an AirBnB. Surely there are existing laws or regulations against this. People often mention noise from short-term rentals, there are regulations against this too. The benefits of better enforcement would extend beyond short-term rentals as well, and improve quality of life for all residents. Other issues, like the "vomit covered floors", seem like strictly private issues to be handled between the host, guest, and possibly the mediation of the rental site. I'm not saying that better enforcement should be the only solution (it can't deal with larger issues like elevated property prices), but it should certainly be a large part of it.

nradov 11y ago
Better enforcement costs money. Who is going to pay for it? These neighborhoods didn't have such serious problems before so it seems unreasonable that they have to pay for more enforcement just to maintain their quality of life.

jacquesm 11y ago

And in Amsterdam as well.