6 ms·

Fighting cancer by putting tumor cells on a diet

89 points by ValentineC 11y ago

reasonattlm 11y ago
Contrary to one of the quoted researchers, it is perfectly possible to do rigorous testing of diet as an adjuvant therapy for cancer patients. One team is doing this for calorie restriction and fasting, and is putting a defined fasting / fasting mimicking protocol through the FDA process. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-06/uosc-fts060214.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-06/uosc-fts06021... http://michelsonmedical.org/2014/12/26/igf-1-fasting-discussion-valter-longo/ http://michelsonmedical.org/2014/12/26/igf-1-fasting-discuss... https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-to-slow-aging/ https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-... That said, it is quite true that most of what is said and done in connection with diet is some variety of nonsense, driven by self-interest on the part of market participants. Cui bono is the watchword. This just makes it more important to learn how to tell the difference between good research and junk science, however.
danieltillett 11y ago
There is some really interesting work in this area. Many cancers are sensitive to certain amino acid starvation as well and designing diets that drop out these amino acids can be very useful. It all depends on the genetic background of the cancer. If I got cancer I would definitely have the cancer sequenced and go looking in the data for defects amenable to dietary intervention.
kumarski 11y ago
I think diet experimentation and food avoidance have the capability to be the next big advanced immunotherapy or combined therapy supplement. To usher in an age of 10 billion dollar companies we need predictive validity and models. The ships are fast but the compasses are off. The gut and controlling it/experimenting with it are the next big leap for biopharmacetuical development. The way to get there is to enforce patient adherence to specific ingredient controlled diets.The only way to do that is control and know the environment of ingredients. Check out this company that takes tumor biopsies and uses M3 polypeptide count to figure out what not to consume. http://www.immunodiet.com http://www.immunodiet.com Food avoidance unfortunately isn't something you can commercialize, at least not easily, specifically for patient treatment. There's also no way to push it through a clinical trial/ there's no such thing as an FDA approved diet. Check out this diet: http://bit.ly/fodmapfree http://bit.ly/fodmapfree that has been shown to reduce the effects of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Probably extremely effective but difficult to get FDA approved.
sleavey 11y ago
I'm pretty new to the metabolic theory of cancer, but I summarise below what I think the main point of the article is: There is debate between two schools of thought. On one side, Vander Heiden suggests that tumours must be attacked not only in the mitochondrial level (where the ketogenic diet has been suggested as part of a metabolic-based treatment) but also in the cell replication that we traditionally associate cancer with - where chemotherapy helps. He also blames genetic factors, i.e. we can still "inherit" a high cancer risk. On the other side, Thomas Seyfried argues it's all ultimately mitochondrial and can be controlled via diet. The keto diet, and others, lowers the glucose intake of the body and helps to shut off the fuel supply for tumours. Since he argues cancer is ultimately a metabolic problem, shutting off the glucose supply is a possible cure. Very interesting stuff.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  In cancer is all theories are sometimes right and always wrong in the general.
  - vram22 11y ago
    Borat(ism) is alive and well! https://mobile.twitter.com/devops_borat https://mobile.twitter.com/devops_borat
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      I am tempted to edit my post, but I think the mangled grammar is more amusing.
shermablanca 11y ago
So all of those knots in my back and side rib muscle - where oxygen is constricted - will become cancerous?
aviv 11y ago
Forget diet. Go all the way with a proper water fast. Unfortunately if there was a way to monetize a person not eating for 30 days we would all be hearing about it. Big Food & Drug companies can't productize fasting so it remains fringe as possible cure for many ailments.
- mixedCase 11y ago
  If it has any effect it's because it has the same effect a Keto diet has: It puts your body in ketosis. Except in the process you're also putting your body through extremely unnecessary strain.
software_radio 11y ago
There certainly is a definite correlation between obesity (which is a psychological disorder, and not a "metabolic" one) and cancer. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3773450/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3773450/ So this is not surprising.
plainOldText 11y ago
Here's an interesting podcast episode interviewing a clinical nuclear medicine professor about ketosis and water fasts as tools to fight some forms of cancer for anyone wanting to get more information on these topics: https://thequantifiedbody.net/quantifying-cancer-gene-fine/ https://thequantifiedbody.net/quantifying-cancer-gene-fine/
themgt 11y ago
This is key: Mayo's Thompson counters. He points out that data supporting the ketogenic diet in cancer are limited — and further that rigorous dietary studies are incredibly hard to pull off. "The drug companies aren't going to fund these types of trials," he says. "They can't make money marketing a diet." I would highly recommend people do their own research into nutrition and its relation to health, along with the proven/likely/possible health benefits of various plants, spices and dietary patterns. The fact is, our Big Pharma/FDA/IP-driven approach to medicine makes it almost impossible to test and profit off something like garlic, or a low glycemic index diet or intermittent fasting or turmeric or fruit and fiber or astragalus, etc. The necessary research is just not occurring, because corporate/govt $ are poured into finding synthetic, patentable compounds to target specific problems after they occur. General lifestyle/nutrition advice to prevent/mitigate a huge spectrum of issues that occur as we age? Ain't no money in that science. Blatantly obvious how the same thing occurs w/ psychotropic compounds, with millions being poured into synthetic cannabinoids, opiates, serotonergics, etc. almost all of which are medically inferior to and more dangerous than the natural compounds they mimic. The system is not designed around efficacy, but patentability.
- jostmey 11y ago
  While there are many problems with how research is funded, the NIH and NSF grants awarded to University's and their professors are not biased toward business friendly solutions to diseases, at least as far as I could see during my years in an academic setting. There has been plenty of research on how dieting increases longevity, and reduces the propensity to catch various diseases such as cancer.
- nostromo 11y ago
  I really liked these two charts to explore what foods and supplements are worth considering: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o... http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-superfoods/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o...
  - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tosseraccount 11y ago
~apparent~ Link to Baker paper mentioned in the NPR story is here (pubmed links to actual paper) : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25528755 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25528755 (Journal of the National Cancer Institute) From the abstract: The standard viewpoint that cancer is a genetic disease is often stated as a fact rather than a theory. By not acknowledging that it is a theory, namely the Somatic Mutation Theory (SMT), researchers are limiting their progress. An attractive alternative to SMT is the tissue organization field theory (TOFT), which is summarized as "development gone awry." ... Thinking in terms of TOFT can spur new lines of research; examples are given related to the early detection of cancer. From the discussion : The premises of TOFT are that carcinogenesis represents a problem of tissue organization, comparable to organogenesis, and that proliferation is the default state of all cells (9,10). Three corollaries of TOFT are: 1) mutations are not needed for carcinogenesis; 2) cancer can arise in tissue where carcinogen has not been applied; and 3) genetic instability is a byproduct of carcinogenesis.
tominous 11y ago
One symptom of cancer, especially late-stage cancer, is cachexia: unintended weight loss. It is associated with a higher risk of death and lower quality of life. [1] In addition, cancer treatments like surgery, chemotherapy and radiation affect the sense of taste, appetite and metabolism and make it difficult to get normal nutrition in the first place. So you can see why clinical oncologists and patients might be wary of restrictive diets or fasting. In fact many offical guidelines suggest adding sugar, frying foods, eating more dairy, etc to boost nutritional intake. Psychologically, even if a patient is overweight they may fear a drop in weight as a sign that the cancer is progressing. (An ex-colleague was very obese and lost 60kg before/after being diagnosed with kidney cancer). A patient may also want to enjoy their remaining time. Food has a huge intrinsic pleasure and is very important socially. I'm not saying this is an unworthy line of research but they will need good evidence or specific, easy interventions to convince people to change their diet. For example, drugs like metformin or rMETase may be easier than explicit restrictions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachexia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachexia
- atomical 11y ago
  SARMS are going through trials for cachexia in cancer patients. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_modulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_mo...
davidjnelson 11y ago
Always good to be vigilant to notice if this is happening in general: "When people are locked into an ideology created by a dogma they tend not to focus on rational alternatives." Interesting area to explore would be techniques to catch yourself if this has happened. Anyone explored this and have tips?
mehrzad 11y ago
Recently beat cancer and I looked into the research on keto and cancer. A study I looked at said that the keto diet could actually cause tumor cells to develop other methods of getting energy, causing the cancer to grow more rapidly. I was too afraid to try.
- aplummer 11y ago
  This. As there original post says, there isn't enough research on this which is exactly why for now you should follow the advice of your GP / specialists.
- salgernon 11y ago
  Can you share anything? Did you change your diet? I'm currently sitting in a room at Sloan-Kettering dealing with a post-surgical infection from getting the left side of my liver lopped off. There've been no dietary restrictions or recommendations other than eat more protein. Initially I was told to up my vitamin d: http://meetinglibrary.asco.org/content/139861-158 And not worry about weight at all. Its also been expressed to me that for my specific cancer (stage IV colon cancer with liver metastasis) surgery is the only curative mechanism.
  - mehrzad 11y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that. My nurse said to keep up a high fat and high protein diet for my leukemia, probably to prevent weight loss when I lost my appetite later. When my immune system weakened, I stopped eating uncooked plant-based foods. Certain foods have shown to fight tumor cells in vivo like cruciferous vegetables but nothing is really as good as actual modern treatment.
- weego 11y ago
  Without knowing anything of what you read I would guess this is could be referencing gluconeogenesis which is the result of eating too much protein and not enough fats while in a ketogenic in state. The result is that the body generates glucose from amino acid breakdown.
fma 11y ago
My grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and given several months to live. She being 90, her doctor, family, and herself decided not to do anything about it and just live out her life. I came across ketogenic diet...but unfortunately by that time I found out about it, the writing was on the wall (she passed away 3 weeks later). If I was in the same position, given the option of doing no chemo and dying; doing chemo, suffering, then dying; or doing no chemo, going on a diet, and maybe somehow it works...I know what I would chose.
known 11y ago
Small companies making a big contribution http://gelookahead.economist.com/slideshow/start-ups-fighting-cancer/ http://gelookahead.economist.com/slideshow/start-ups-fightin...

89 points by ValentineC 11y ago

Contrary to one of the quoted researchers, it is perfectly possible to do rigorous testing of diet as an adjuvant therapy for cancer patients. One team is doing this for calorie restriction and fasting, and is putting a defined fasting / fasting mimicking protocol through the FDA process. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-06/uosc-fts060214.php http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-06/uosc-fts06021... http://michelsonmedical.org/2014/12/26/igf-1-fasting-discussion-valter-longo/ http://michelsonmedical.org/2014/12/26/igf-1-fasting-discuss... https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-to-slow-aging/ https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-... That said, it is quite true that most of what is said and done in connection with diet is some variety of nonsense, driven by self-interest on the part of market participants. Cui bono is the watchword. This just makes it more important to learn how to tell the difference between good research and junk science, however.

danieltillett 11y ago

There is some really interesting work in this area. Many cancers are sensitive to certain amino acid starvation as well and designing diets that drop out these amino acids can be very useful. It all depends on the genetic background of the cancer. If I got cancer I would definitely have the cancer sequenced and go looking in the data for defects amenable to dietary intervention.

kumarski 11y ago

I think diet experimentation and food avoidance have the capability to be the next big advanced immunotherapy or combined therapy supplement. To usher in an age of 10 billion dollar companies we need predictive validity and models. The ships are fast but the compasses are off. The gut and controlling it/experimenting with it are the next big leap for biopharmacetuical development. The way to get there is to enforce patient adherence to specific ingredient controlled diets.The only way to do that is control and know the environment of ingredients. Check out this company that takes tumor biopsies and uses M3 polypeptide count to figure out what not to consume. http://www.immunodiet.com http://www.immunodiet.com Food avoidance unfortunately isn't something you can commercialize, at least not easily, specifically for patient treatment. There's also no way to push it through a clinical trial/ there's no such thing as an FDA approved diet. Check out this diet: http://bit.ly/fodmapfree http://bit.ly/fodmapfree that has been shown to reduce the effects of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Probably extremely effective but difficult to get FDA approved.

sleavey 11y ago

I'm pretty new to the metabolic theory of cancer, but I summarise below what I think the main point of the article is: There is debate between two schools of thought. On one side, Vander Heiden suggests that tumours must be attacked not only in the mitochondrial level (where the ketogenic diet has been suggested as part of a metabolic-based treatment) but also in the cell replication that we traditionally associate cancer with - where chemotherapy helps. He also blames genetic factors, i.e. we can still "inherit" a high cancer risk. On the other side, Thomas Seyfried argues it's all ultimately mitochondrial and can be controlled via diet. The keto diet, and others, lowers the glucose intake of the body and helps to shut off the fuel supply for tumours. Since he argues cancer is ultimately a metabolic problem, shutting off the glucose supply is a possible cure. Very interesting stuff.

danieltillett 11y ago
In cancer is all theories are sometimes right and always wrong in the general.
- vram22 11y ago
  Borat(ism) is alive and well! https://mobile.twitter.com/devops_borat https://mobile.twitter.com/devops_borat
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    I am tempted to edit my post, but I think the mangled grammar is more amusing.

shermablanca 11y ago

So all of those knots in my back and side rib muscle - where oxygen is constricted - will become cancerous?

aviv 11y ago

Forget diet. Go all the way with a proper water fast. Unfortunately if there was a way to monetize a person not eating for 30 days we would all be hearing about it. Big Food & Drug companies can't productize fasting so it remains fringe as possible cure for many ailments.

mixedCase 11y ago
If it has any effect it's because it has the same effect a Keto diet has: It puts your body in ketosis. Except in the process you're also putting your body through extremely unnecessary strain.

software_radio 11y ago

There certainly is a definite correlation between obesity (which is a psychological disorder, and not a "metabolic" one) and cancer. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3773450/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3773450/ So this is not surprising.

plainOldText 11y ago

Here's an interesting podcast episode interviewing a clinical nuclear medicine professor about ketosis and water fasts as tools to fight some forms of cancer for anyone wanting to get more information on these topics: https://thequantifiedbody.net/quantifying-cancer-gene-fine/ https://thequantifiedbody.net/quantifying-cancer-gene-fine/

themgt 11y ago

This is key: Mayo's Thompson counters. He points out that data supporting the ketogenic diet in cancer are limited — and further that rigorous dietary studies are incredibly hard to pull off. "The drug companies aren't going to fund these types of trials," he says. "They can't make money marketing a diet." I would highly recommend people do their own research into nutrition and its relation to health, along with the proven/likely/possible health benefits of various plants, spices and dietary patterns. The fact is, our Big Pharma/FDA/IP-driven approach to medicine makes it almost impossible to test and profit off something like garlic, or a low glycemic index diet or intermittent fasting or turmeric or fruit and fiber or astragalus, etc. The necessary research is just not occurring, because corporate/govt $ are poured into finding synthetic, patentable compounds to target specific problems after they occur. General lifestyle/nutrition advice to prevent/mitigate a huge spectrum of issues that occur as we age? Ain't no money in that science. Blatantly obvious how the same thing occurs w/ psychotropic compounds, with millions being poured into synthetic cannabinoids, opiates, serotonergics, etc. almost all of which are medically inferior to and more dangerous than the natural compounds they mimic. The system is not designed around efficacy, but patentability.

jostmey 11y ago
While there are many problems with how research is funded, the NIH and NSF grants awarded to University's and their professors are not biased toward business friendly solutions to diseases, at least as far as I could see during my years in an academic setting. There has been plenty of research on how dieting increases longevity, and reduces the propensity to catch various diseases such as cancer.
nostromo 11y ago
I really liked these two charts to explore what foods and supplements are worth considering: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o... http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-superfoods/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o...
- 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

tosseraccount 11y ago

~apparent~ Link to Baker paper mentioned in the NPR story is here (pubmed links to actual paper) : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25528755 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25528755 (Journal of the National Cancer Institute) From the abstract: The standard viewpoint that cancer is a genetic disease is often stated as a fact rather than a theory. By not acknowledging that it is a theory, namely the Somatic Mutation Theory (SMT), researchers are limiting their progress. An attractive alternative to SMT is the tissue organization field theory (TOFT), which is summarized as "development gone awry." ... Thinking in terms of TOFT can spur new lines of research; examples are given related to the early detection of cancer. From the discussion : The premises of TOFT are that carcinogenesis represents a problem of tissue organization, comparable to organogenesis, and that proliferation is the default state of all cells (9,10). Three corollaries of TOFT are: 1) mutations are not needed for carcinogenesis; 2) cancer can arise in tissue where carcinogen has not been applied; and 3) genetic instability is a byproduct of carcinogenesis.

tominous 11y ago

One symptom of cancer, especially late-stage cancer, is cachexia: unintended weight loss. It is associated with a higher risk of death and lower quality of life. [1] In addition, cancer treatments like surgery, chemotherapy and radiation affect the sense of taste, appetite and metabolism and make it difficult to get normal nutrition in the first place. So you can see why clinical oncologists and patients might be wary of restrictive diets or fasting. In fact many offical guidelines suggest adding sugar, frying foods, eating more dairy, etc to boost nutritional intake. Psychologically, even if a patient is overweight they may fear a drop in weight as a sign that the cancer is progressing. (An ex-colleague was very obese and lost 60kg before/after being diagnosed with kidney cancer). A patient may also want to enjoy their remaining time. Food has a huge intrinsic pleasure and is very important socially. I'm not saying this is an unworthy line of research but they will need good evidence or specific, easy interventions to convince people to change their diet. For example, drugs like metformin or rMETase may be easier than explicit restrictions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachexia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachexia

atomical 11y ago
SARMS are going through trials for cachexia in cancer patients. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_modulator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_mo...

davidjnelson 11y ago

Always good to be vigilant to notice if this is happening in general: "When people are locked into an ideology created by a dogma they tend not to focus on rational alternatives." Interesting area to explore would be techniques to catch yourself if this has happened. Anyone explored this and have tips?

mehrzad 11y ago

Recently beat cancer and I looked into the research on keto and cancer. A study I looked at said that the keto diet could actually cause tumor cells to develop other methods of getting energy, causing the cancer to grow more rapidly. I was too afraid to try.

aplummer 11y ago
This. As there original post says, there isn't enough research on this which is exactly why for now you should follow the advice of your GP / specialists.
salgernon 11y ago
Can you share anything? Did you change your diet? I'm currently sitting in a room at Sloan-Kettering dealing with a post-surgical infection from getting the left side of my liver lopped off. There've been no dietary restrictions or recommendations other than eat more protein. Initially I was told to up my vitamin d: http://meetinglibrary.asco.org/content/139861-158 And not worry about weight at all. Its also been expressed to me that for my specific cancer (stage IV colon cancer with liver metastasis) surgery is the only curative mechanism.
- mehrzad 11y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. My nurse said to keep up a high fat and high protein diet for my leukemia, probably to prevent weight loss when I lost my appetite later. When my immune system weakened, I stopped eating uncooked plant-based foods. Certain foods have shown to fight tumor cells in vivo like cruciferous vegetables but nothing is really as good as actual modern treatment.
weego 11y ago
Without knowing anything of what you read I would guess this is could be referencing gluconeogenesis which is the result of eating too much protein and not enough fats while in a ketogenic in state. The result is that the body generates glucose from amino acid breakdown.

fma 11y ago

My grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and given several months to live. She being 90, her doctor, family, and herself decided not to do anything about it and just live out her life. I came across ketogenic diet...but unfortunately by that time I found out about it, the writing was on the wall (she passed away 3 weeks later). If I was in the same position, given the option of doing no chemo and dying; doing chemo, suffering, then dying; or doing no chemo, going on a diet, and maybe somehow it works...I know what I would chose.

known 11y ago

Small companies making a big contribution http://gelookahead.economist.com/slideshow/start-ups-fighting-cancer/ http://gelookahead.economist.com/slideshow/start-ups-fightin...