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Old media has been perpetually scare mongering in this space... 1980s: Gamers worship satan 1990s: Gamers are violent and shoot up schools 2010s: Gamers are

Old media has been perpetually scare mongering in this space... 1980s: Gamers worship satan 1990s: Gamers are violent and shoot up schools 2010s: Gamers are misogynists

rosser 11y ago
The actual, demonstrable amount of misogyny in gaming stupendously, overwhelmingly dwarfs the even theoretical number of satanists or mass shooters in gaming. Hell, the amount of misogyny in gaming probably dwarfs the number of satanists or mass shooters in the entire world.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  Do you have links to where this is demonstrated?
- user585803945 11y ago
  Spoken with absolutely zero shred of credibility or proof behind it, just a bold assertion to virtue signal to others. You're so cool.
  - rosser 11y ago
    There's some pretty fierce irony in using a throwaway created just to make this comment to question someone's credibility. (Account created one minute before the parent — so far, its only — comment was posted.)
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - copperx 11y ago
    I've never heard of SPORT before, what kind of game is it?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- baldfat 11y ago
  Girlfriend Mode in Borderlands 2: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Girlfriend_mode http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Girlfriend_mode
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    This looks like market segmentation and not misogyny. If the known market for Borderlands is mostly male and some large percentage of those males have a girlfriend, it only makes sense to try to attract that segment to the product. Actually it seems quite the opposite of sexism since they're deliberately trying to make the game more accessible to women. Note this does not mean women are worse at first person shooters, it just means that the game is currently designed for "experts" and there's an adjacent segment that gets exposure to the game via watching their partner play. "Girlfriend mode" is an attempt to reach that segment. Having a "boyfriend zone" in a women's clothing store would be analogous and also not sexist.
- Zikes 11y ago
  Since your statement is overly broad, I'll address the probable root as online harassment. First, men are more likely to receive any form of harassment online, while women are more likely to receive harassment in the form of sexual threats or stalking: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2014-10-22__online-harassment-03/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2... This is widely believed to be because each form of harassment is specifically targeted to have the maximum effect on the victim. Women are more generally upset by sexual harassment, men are generally more upset by emasculation. Second, the reason the media narrative seems skewed in the opposite direction is because women are generally more likely to be upset by harassment: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2014-10-22__online-harassment-15/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2... But neither of those studies are particularly important, because "gaming" is a market so huge that it basically encompasses the entire population, or at least a significant enough portion that any truthful statements that could be made about "gamers" would likely hold equally true of the superset. Overly broad statements such as yours actually hinder the cause of preventing the above issues, as it denies the existence of healthy and positive women gamers. By getting an accurate picture of harassment in general and how to address it we can more effectively treat it, but painting the whole issue as "because men hate women" is an uninformed appeal to emotion and overly defeatist. It implies that the problem is either unsolvable or only solved by removing men entirely.
- rustynails 11y ago
  It's funny you should say that. When I was young, I played dungeons and dragons (the board game). I remember how this campaign ostracised people who wanted to play. In particular, girls were very vicious with the insults about being a freak (to all of us that played). I would compare the stigma to those that liked computers. I can't think of a single girl who liked either d&d or computers in the 70s or 80s (my wife tells me she started in computing in the 80s though and I don't doubt her). Strangely, supposedly, revisionist reality is the opposite - girls were driven away by mean men (it's revisionist history, but misogyny is the buzzword of the new century and truth be damned). I'm glad misogyny was mentioned because my life experience was the exact opposite. However, I enjoyed these pursuits and no amount of bullying stopped me. The attitudes have changed so much today and not for the better.
  - PhasmaFelis 11y ago
    I'm sorry that there were mean girls in your childhood. I'm not sure why you think your experience disproves the experiences of thousands and thousands of other people, though. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting more than one downvote here. For example, my gaming group in college was about 1/3 women, and they got along fine with the men, in both directions. I could follow rustynails' example and call him a liar and a revisionist for saying that he knew mean girls--but that would be a stupid and shortsighted thing to do, wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people in the world; you don't get to claim that the ones in your little circle are the only prototype for all the rest, for better or worse.
    - adekok 11y ago
      > Not sure why I'm getting more than one downvote here. Not from me, but I might explain. > I'm not sure why you think your experience disproves the experiences of thousands and thousands of other people, though. [ citation needed ] A youtuber by the name of Sargon of Akkad had a guest on his show talk about her experiences with online hate after she gave a public talk. The following link is to about 32:00 in: https://youtu.be/D_Rmbmc1BH8?t=1910 https://youtu.be/D_Rmbmc1BH8?t=1910 She explains how terribly misogynistic everyone has been. He explains why those insults are gendered: because that works as an insult. Men get different insults than women do. The people claiming "the internet is misogynistic" largely seem to ignore insults directed at men, and talk loudly about the insults directed at women. She later explains how she gets death threats, and this is an example of online misogyny. He explains slowly that he gets death threats, too. Her response is that she's clearly shocked. She's never for one second thought that anyone else might be having problems on the net. Just that she's having issues, therefore it's personal, and it's only her (and people like her). It's an astonishing admission to make publicly. That everyone else on the net is so unimportant as to be not worth human empathy, or even 30 seconds of rational thought. That's why every time I hear "the internet is evil towards X", I have to ask "Oh? And how is everyone else treated?" Usually the response is "Uh.. I don't know". Or, as another comment here shows... studies demonstrate that the sex which gets the most death threats, hateful comments, etc. is not women. It's men. Heck, I've had death threats online. Do I go to sleep worrying about it? No. The people involved are cheap losers who live thousands of miles from me. They can muster up the hate to issue death threats online. They can't muster up the wherewithall to book a bus ticket to my home and ring my doorbell. The solution to feelings of powerlessness is to give people power. Not to control the majorities speech because a small number of losers are assholes online. Teach people how to deal with assholes, and they're less afraid. Teach people to be afraid, and they'll demand that we "safe space" the world in order to assuage their fears.
Eric_WVGG 11y ago
Old media hasn’t had much to say about Gamergate or misogyny in the videogame industry. That fight is on social media and by nature grass-roots.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  The gamers are grassroots because no media outlet represented them but old media (and mainstream new media) did run with the anti-gamer story. It was covered in CNN, NYT, Forbes... There was even a CSI episode.
  - Eric_WVGG 11y ago
    I have no way of knowing if you’re old enough to remember, but that level of coverage is nothing compared to the ongoing nonsense in the late nineties and 2k’s. I never thought Jack Thompson would go away. Anyway, look at it from the media’s perspective. “violent videogames turn your kids into sociopaths” is a pretty great hook, it’s going to get the suburban parents attention, it’s going to turn into endless PTA meetings, it’s going to make it to the House of Representatives. “women are getting horribly harassed in a particular industry” just doesn’t make the headlines.
  - chiaro 11y ago
    *anti-gamergate story
  - CM30 11y ago
    Well, there are some news sites supporting the GamerGate side of the story. They're the ones on the GamerGate support lists, which include twenty/thirty/forty/whatever sites of various sizes. For example: http://alternatives.gamergate.community/ http://alternatives.gamergate.community/ There's also a fair bit more GamerGate support in the Nintendo fandom, with the bigger sites being at least neutral to it. But it's still a bit more grassroots, since a lot of the sites on the support list are run by communities and fans rather than corporations.
- erics32 11y ago
  That's simply not true at all. See recent BBC video on 'Dark side of gaming' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZMjGwjCAuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZMjGwjCAuQ Three women who were interviewed all commented in the video about how BBC misrepresented their views and cherry picked quotes to fit the narrative YOGSCAST Hannah: I pointed this out during my interview, and said online gaming companies need to step up and help support reporting and banning like DOTA 2/Valve did - looks like that didn't get through, they just kept the bit where I said abuse happens to everyone :( 0Apes0: 3 days ago Being the manager of the HoG (shooting the shot gun) I am very disappointed at the finished edit of this. This was supposed to be a film about women in gaming but 'sorry we had to change direction) in the last couple of weeks. It's only purpose is to make women feel like victims when we're not. MEN and women experience a use everyday online, the bet thing to do is to ignore it and ban the stupid people on Twitter, live, psn and twitch. Not worth the worry. I said this but clearly this was deemed too logical to show and we must all remain victims. Not happy with the finish product only that it's appeared on YouTube and not real TV. Also lol good job at bringing KSI in. Ms 5ooo Watts: 1 day ago I'm honestly disappointed with how this turned out. I was approached to speak about women in gaming as a whole not to only talk about the negative side. Even during the interview I was asked to give my positive experiences with being a gamer as they didn't want this to be a one sided thing. None of my positive comments about my community and the gaming community as a whole were included at all. The initial email that I received asking for an interview said, and I quote "I’m working on a BBC3 documentary looking at the experiences of female gamers, how experiences are changing (and how the games themselves are changing)" No where in there does it say that the program will be about "the dark side of gaming" I never signed up to be some kind of warrior against sexism online, I was asked to talk about the experiences of women in gaming, how things are changing and how games themselves are changing to reflect women in gaming now being more represented. Not happy at all.
CM30 11y ago
Of course, it's especially interesting to note the gaming media response in both cases. When it's religious conservatives attacking gaming, then they're idiots who should be mocked, yet when it's 'liberals' attacking gaming, they act like there's an actual point. You can see the old boys club a mile off... As for why gaming is so often attacked? I supected it's an audience thing. Hardcore gamers are often conflated with nerds (same with die hard tabletop gamers and roleplayers), and are seen as an 'easy' target for populists and media mouthpieces. People love a scapegoat...
anigbrowl 11y ago
Right, because new media is all about fact-checking and sober objectivity ಠ_ರೃ
dang 11y ago
You've broken the HN guidelines by turning this thread into a classic flamewar, and not for the first time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11069104 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11069104. Please don't do it again.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  I have to admit I'm pretty tired of having to police my conversation here. I always try to be civil and this post is definitely on topic. Would it not be better to not allow contentious submissions in the first place? I get plenty of upvotes (and downvotes) so obviously what I say is resonating with some of the population here. Edit: To be clear I don't think you can talk about moral panics in gaming without mentioning the one that's currently happening.
  - dang 11y ago
    Gamergate trolling (which is obviously what you posted) is not on topic in a discussion about the history of Dungeons and Dragons—nor, for that matter, anywhere on HN. You've subtly changed the subject by saying "contentious submissions". That's not what this is about. The guidelines hold independently of upvotes. HN is a constitutional democracy. If you're tired of following the guidelines, please stop posting here until your energy is recouped.
    - theworstshill 11y ago
      ^Thought control at its finest. If a person has an opinion it should be heard instead of squelched.
- mindslight 11y ago
  Such policies seem practical and neutral, but ultimately just create a new avenue for bullying minority viewpoints - eg writing off a plain-stated comment as "trolling" (implying dishonestly on the part of the author), rather than say "flamebait". It's harmful to optimize for apparent signal/noise ratio at the expense of making it harder to differentiate signal from coherent groupthink noise.

Old media has been perpetually scare mongering in this space... 1980s: Gamers worship satan 1990s: Gamers are violent and shoot up schools 2010s: Gamers are misogynists

rosser 11y ago

The actual, demonstrable amount of misogyny in gaming stupendously, overwhelmingly dwarfs the even theoretical number of satanists or mass shooters in gaming. Hell, the amount of misogyny in gaming probably dwarfs the number of satanists or mass shooters in the entire world.

exstudent2 11y ago
Do you have links to where this is demonstrated?
user585803945 11y ago
Spoken with absolutely zero shred of credibility or proof behind it, just a bold assertion to virtue signal to others. You're so cool.
- rosser 11y ago
  There's some pretty fierce irony in using a throwaway created just to make this comment to question someone's credibility. (Account created one minute before the parent — so far, its only — comment was posted.)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- copperx 11y ago
  I've never heard of SPORT before, what kind of game is it?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
baldfat 11y ago
Girlfriend Mode in Borderlands 2: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Girlfriend_mode http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Girlfriend_mode
- exstudent2 11y ago
  This looks like market segmentation and not misogyny. If the known market for Borderlands is mostly male and some large percentage of those males have a girlfriend, it only makes sense to try to attract that segment to the product. Actually it seems quite the opposite of sexism since they're deliberately trying to make the game more accessible to women. Note this does not mean women are worse at first person shooters, it just means that the game is currently designed for "experts" and there's an adjacent segment that gets exposure to the game via watching their partner play. "Girlfriend mode" is an attempt to reach that segment. Having a "boyfriend zone" in a women's clothing store would be analogous and also not sexist.
Zikes 11y ago
Since your statement is overly broad, I'll address the probable root as online harassment. First, men are more likely to receive any form of harassment online, while women are more likely to receive harassment in the form of sexual threats or stalking: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2014-10-22__online-harassment-03/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2... This is widely believed to be because each form of harassment is specifically targeted to have the maximum effect on the victim. Women are more generally upset by sexual harassment, men are generally more upset by emasculation. Second, the reason the media narrative seems skewed in the opposite direction is because women are generally more likely to be upset by harassment: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2014-10-22__online-harassment-15/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/pi_2... But neither of those studies are particularly important, because "gaming" is a market so huge that it basically encompasses the entire population, or at least a significant enough portion that any truthful statements that could be made about "gamers" would likely hold equally true of the superset. Overly broad statements such as yours actually hinder the cause of preventing the above issues, as it denies the existence of healthy and positive women gamers. By getting an accurate picture of harassment in general and how to address it we can more effectively treat it, but painting the whole issue as "because men hate women" is an uninformed appeal to emotion and overly defeatist. It implies that the problem is either unsolvable or only solved by removing men entirely.
rustynails 11y ago
It's funny you should say that. When I was young, I played dungeons and dragons (the board game). I remember how this campaign ostracised people who wanted to play. In particular, girls were very vicious with the insults about being a freak (to all of us that played). I would compare the stigma to those that liked computers. I can't think of a single girl who liked either d&d or computers in the 70s or 80s (my wife tells me she started in computing in the 80s though and I don't doubt her). Strangely, supposedly, revisionist reality is the opposite - girls were driven away by mean men (it's revisionist history, but misogyny is the buzzword of the new century and truth be damned). I'm glad misogyny was mentioned because my life experience was the exact opposite. However, I enjoyed these pursuits and no amount of bullying stopped me. The attitudes have changed so much today and not for the better.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  I'm sorry that there were mean girls in your childhood. I'm not sure why you think your experience disproves the experiences of thousands and thousands of other people, though. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting more than one downvote here. For example, my gaming group in college was about 1/3 women, and they got along fine with the men, in both directions. I could follow rustynails' example and call him a liar and a revisionist for saying that he knew mean girls--but that would be a stupid and shortsighted thing to do, wouldn't it? There are all kinds of people in the world; you don't get to claim that the ones in your little circle are the only prototype for all the rest, for better or worse.
  - adekok 11y ago
    > Not sure why I'm getting more than one downvote here. Not from me, but I might explain. > I'm not sure why you think your experience disproves the experiences of thousands and thousands of other people, though. [ citation needed ] A youtuber by the name of Sargon of Akkad had a guest on his show talk about her experiences with online hate after she gave a public talk. The following link is to about 32:00 in: https://youtu.be/D_Rmbmc1BH8?t=1910 https://youtu.be/D_Rmbmc1BH8?t=1910 She explains how terribly misogynistic everyone has been. He explains why those insults are gendered: because that works as an insult. Men get different insults than women do. The people claiming "the internet is misogynistic" largely seem to ignore insults directed at men, and talk loudly about the insults directed at women. She later explains how she gets death threats, and this is an example of online misogyny. He explains slowly that he gets death threats, too. Her response is that she's clearly shocked. She's never for one second thought that anyone else might be having problems on the net. Just that she's having issues, therefore it's personal, and it's only her (and people like her). It's an astonishing admission to make publicly. That everyone else on the net is so unimportant as to be not worth human empathy, or even 30 seconds of rational thought. That's why every time I hear "the internet is evil towards X", I have to ask "Oh? And how is everyone else treated?" Usually the response is "Uh.. I don't know". Or, as another comment here shows... studies demonstrate that the sex which gets the most death threats, hateful comments, etc. is not women. It's men. Heck, I've had death threats online. Do I go to sleep worrying about it? No. The people involved are cheap losers who live thousands of miles from me. They can muster up the hate to issue death threats online. They can't muster up the wherewithall to book a bus ticket to my home and ring my doorbell. The solution to feelings of powerlessness is to give people power. Not to control the majorities speech because a small number of losers are assholes online. Teach people how to deal with assholes, and they're less afraid. Teach people to be afraid, and they'll demand that we "safe space" the world in order to assuage their fears.

Eric_WVGG 11y ago

Old media hasn’t had much to say about Gamergate or misogyny in the videogame industry. That fight is on social media and by nature grass-roots.

exstudent2 11y ago
The gamers are grassroots because no media outlet represented them but old media (and mainstream new media) did run with the anti-gamer story. It was covered in CNN, NYT, Forbes... There was even a CSI episode.
- Eric_WVGG 11y ago
  I have no way of knowing if you’re old enough to remember, but that level of coverage is nothing compared to the ongoing nonsense in the late nineties and 2k’s. I never thought Jack Thompson would go away. Anyway, look at it from the media’s perspective. “violent videogames turn your kids into sociopaths” is a pretty great hook, it’s going to get the suburban parents attention, it’s going to turn into endless PTA meetings, it’s going to make it to the House of Representatives. “women are getting horribly harassed in a particular industry” just doesn’t make the headlines.
- chiaro 11y ago
  *anti-gamergate story
- CM30 11y ago
  Well, there are some news sites supporting the GamerGate side of the story. They're the ones on the GamerGate support lists, which include twenty/thirty/forty/whatever sites of various sizes. For example: http://alternatives.gamergate.community/ http://alternatives.gamergate.community/ There's also a fair bit more GamerGate support in the Nintendo fandom, with the bigger sites being at least neutral to it. But it's still a bit more grassroots, since a lot of the sites on the support list are run by communities and fans rather than corporations.
erics32 11y ago
That's simply not true at all. See recent BBC video on 'Dark side of gaming' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZMjGwjCAuQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZMjGwjCAuQ Three women who were interviewed all commented in the video about how BBC misrepresented their views and cherry picked quotes to fit the narrative YOGSCAST Hannah: I pointed this out during my interview, and said online gaming companies need to step up and help support reporting and banning like DOTA 2/Valve did - looks like that didn't get through, they just kept the bit where I said abuse happens to everyone :( 0Apes0: 3 days ago Being the manager of the HoG (shooting the shot gun) I am very disappointed at the finished edit of this. This was supposed to be a film about women in gaming but 'sorry we had to change direction) in the last couple of weeks. It's only purpose is to make women feel like victims when we're not. MEN and women experience a use everyday online, the bet thing to do is to ignore it and ban the stupid people on Twitter, live, psn and twitch. Not worth the worry. I said this but clearly this was deemed too logical to show and we must all remain victims. Not happy with the finish product only that it's appeared on YouTube and not real TV. Also lol good job at bringing KSI in. Ms 5ooo Watts: 1 day ago I'm honestly disappointed with how this turned out. I was approached to speak about women in gaming as a whole not to only talk about the negative side. Even during the interview I was asked to give my positive experiences with being a gamer as they didn't want this to be a one sided thing. None of my positive comments about my community and the gaming community as a whole were included at all. The initial email that I received asking for an interview said, and I quote "I’m working on a BBC3 documentary looking at the experiences of female gamers, how experiences are changing (and how the games themselves are changing)" No where in there does it say that the program will be about "the dark side of gaming" I never signed up to be some kind of warrior against sexism online, I was asked to talk about the experiences of women in gaming, how things are changing and how games themselves are changing to reflect women in gaming now being more represented. Not happy at all.

CM30 11y ago

Of course, it's especially interesting to note the gaming media response in both cases. When it's religious conservatives attacking gaming, then they're idiots who should be mocked, yet when it's 'liberals' attacking gaming, they act like there's an actual point. You can see the old boys club a mile off... As for why gaming is so often attacked? I supected it's an audience thing. Hardcore gamers are often conflated with nerds (same with die hard tabletop gamers and roleplayers), and are seen as an 'easy' target for populists and media mouthpieces. People love a scapegoat...

anigbrowl 11y ago

Right, because new media is all about fact-checking and sober objectivity ಠ_ರೃ

dang 11y ago

You've broken the HN guidelines by turning this thread into a classic flamewar, and not for the first time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11069104 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11069104. Please don't do it again.

exstudent2 11y ago
I have to admit I'm pretty tired of having to police my conversation here. I always try to be civil and this post is definitely on topic. Would it not be better to not allow contentious submissions in the first place? I get plenty of upvotes (and downvotes) so obviously what I say is resonating with some of the population here. Edit: To be clear I don't think you can talk about moral panics in gaming without mentioning the one that's currently happening.
- dang 11y ago
  Gamergate trolling (which is obviously what you posted) is not on topic in a discussion about the history of Dungeons and Dragons—nor, for that matter, anywhere on HN. You've subtly changed the subject by saying "contentious submissions". That's not what this is about. The guidelines hold independently of upvotes. HN is a constitutional democracy. If you're tired of following the guidelines, please stop posting here until your energy is recouped.
  - theworstshill 11y ago
    ^Thought control at its finest. If a person has an opinion it should be heard instead of squelched.
mindslight 11y ago
Such policies seem practical and neutral, but ultimately just create a new avenue for bullying minority viewpoints - eg writing off a plain-stated comment as "trolling" (implying dishonestly on the part of the author), rather than say "flamebait". It's harmful to optimize for apparent signal/noise ratio at the expense of making it harder to differentiate signal from coherent groupthink noise.