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Ask HN: How do you hire good developers?

• aprdm 11y ago
  would help to see how you're advertising the role if you can share (keep the company name hidden if you want..) other thing is, are you getting applications? is it after the applications that they leave you? and where are you based?
• stray 11y ago
  You're probably in the Bay Area -- and if you don't want remote developers you're shutting yourself off from all of us who wouldn't move there no matter how high the compensation.
  • Avalaxy 11y ago
    Can confirm. I've been looking for a remote job in the bay area. Not because I don't want to move there, but because it's virtually impossible to move there because all the companies want you to move on a very short notice and they don't want to spend a lot of money to get you an H1B visa. It was very hard to find companies that were willing to work with remote employees (even though they are much cheaper and often just as qualified).
    • p4wnc6 11y ago
      Many also offer needlessly poor relocation packages -- mostly because engineers are foolishly willing to accept them. A flat payment of even $8000 is not reasonable for someone to move across the country, even if they are moving alone and seeking small, affordable apartments. A minimum relocation package should include having the company handle the arrangements for a full-service moving company who will pack your things in boxes and unpack them in the new place, flight and hotel for 1 or 2 visits to the new city for housing search, cover all up-front costs with renting a new place (fees, deposit, first month rent), and still leave you with a few thousand dollars on top of that for incidental expenses, unplanned costs after you've moved in, etc. And if they need you to relocate from an area with accessible public transit to an area where a car is required, then a sign-on bonus that covers most or all of the cost of a reasonable quality car should also be standard. This is not luxury stuff, this is just the basic human cost of moving across the country. If you take the risk of a new job in SF and move all the way there and it doesn't work out, well you don't get a refund on your moving expenses and you don't get compensation for any personal time you took (e.g. if you moved yourself with a UHaul). And what if you injure your back while carrying furniture down the stairs? Will your new company cover the medical bills? What if the moving company you hired damages your stuff or loses it? Will the new company reimburse you? This is why it's so necessary that the company assumes the risk of these things. The company is funded and/or profitable (or else shouldn't be considering hiring someone who requires relocation). They can afford to bear the relocation costs and the risks. A lone individual may or may not be able to, and can't risk their livelihood on their ability to handle the relocation risks. But it's all too common that a start-up offers $2500 to a recent college grad who has been eating ramen for the last week. It sounds great, and they don't know enough about career status and so forth to realize that if you admit you are willing to physically haul your own stuff around, it already paints you as a low-status subordinate. These folks unblinkingly accept precarious and unreasonable relocation scenarios, and then the company can hide behind a claim of "well, no one else complained about our relocation assistance" when negotiating.
      • throweway 11y ago
        Interesting when you put it like that. When I graduated i'd never heard of relo assistance let alone knew how much to ask for. If offered 2k id been very happy.
  • polack 11y ago
    We're actually in Copenhagen. Probably should have mentioned that in the OP. Point taken though, we should consider taking in remote workers. My only "fear" is that it will be hard to build a good company culture without a "core" team sitting in the same location. We have some remote consultants working on our gui right now, and even though they do a fantastic job, it adds quite a lot of overhead in management and I'm not really satisfied with the knowledge sharing between the remote and the on-site teams. I guess there is a lot of room for improvements on our part here though.
    • antocv 11y ago
      Ive never seen a team develop which dont share the same physical space. Even a Big Enterprise Company, suffers from "us vs them" in the same city but different building blocks, now imagine how "we" see "them" in another country and they us. Hell, Ive been in this "safe" big enterprize for more than 2-3 years now, and the people on the floor above and below are more strangers than you here on HN. So, remote work, consider it different. However, you mentioned finance, Ive turned down a very lucrative offering from a finance company just because they bragged that their investors are Saudi Arabians, its just personal, but no thanks, they can keep their blood/oil money.
    • charlesdm 11y ago
      When you say high, how high are we talking? One thing to consider is that in most high tax countries (i.e. Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, etc) high (in terms of total cost, after accounting for employer tax + social security) actually isn't that high. I would consider an after tax salary of €2,500 not high, for example. But that salary might already cost the company €5,000-8,000 per month
      • p4wnc6 11y ago
        Agreed. Personally, I would love to move to Denmark, and I am actually on the job market right now (I do scientific computing with Python and some related data engineering tools, so I have no idea if I fit the OP's company) but my immediate instinct is to be really skeptical of this. For me to feel like a job offer to Copenhagen is attractive, the take-home pay needs to be similar to what it would be in Boston in the US ... so mid to high 100k USD range of gross pay, say something close to 100k USD take-home pay, which roughly corresponds to a take-home pay of 688k Danish krone per year. With high taxes there, I'm guessing this means a salary of greater than 1MM krone/year to be roughly equal to a competitive offer in a mid-cost urban area in the US. And if it is in the finance industry as the OP suggested in another comment, then there should be some opportunity for profit sharing as well. Cost of living doesn't factor into this so much, though cost of living in Scandinavian cities is pretty high. There is career risk and visa / tax hassle to worry about, relocation and housing costs, and the usual start-up risk. It's not at all the same as taking on a risk in the Bay area, where there are many jobs to switch to if your company doesn't work out. I think a lot of start-ups don't consider these things, and often they don't have to consider them because there's a line of schmucks down the street waiting to work for them. But if you are a thoughtful person and you consider visa risk, tax risk, career risk, relocation risk, regular start-up failure risk, etc., then for a job like this you might even expect a significant premium when compared to US-based jobs in the same field. A lot of European start-ups, I find, don't fundamentally think this way, and they expect that American workers should be happy to accept "European" salaries, which are then taxed at a higher rate, all while you're bearing many additional risks. Unless your personal preference function puts a huge, huge premium on the status of "living in Europe" then it's probably a bad deal in terms of net life happiness.
• jasonkester 11y ago
  My first guess is that maybe your "high" salary isn't high enough. That's usually the reason that companies think there are no good developers out there. They're out there. But they're expensive. How much are you offering?
  • polack 11y ago
    You might be right, but we are pretty certain that we pay at least 20% more than the larger companies around here. Nobody has requested a salary that we have said no to. The feedback we have been given is that we do pay better, but that it feels safer for them at a larger place or that they have found something more interesting. I understand that the domain (finance) we are in isn't the most attracting for some people, but we try to pitch the exiting parts like scalability and machine learning.
    • tonyarkles 11y ago
      As a curiosity, how much are you paying your consultants vs. your employees? I ask this as a consultant who has had several clients try to hire me as an FTE. The consulting life isn't always awesome, but there are certainly financial and lifestyle perks to it. Here's a few of them: - work remote/from home pretty much whenever I want to - "unlimited" unpaid holidays (as in, if I don't do any work on Tuesday, I don't get paid, but I don't get fired either) - 100% paid "overtime", I get paid for every hour I work at the same rate. No multipliers for extra time, but no expectation that I'm going to work for free. - No penalty for "moonlighting" - If an interesting project comes my way and I can fit it into my schedule, I'm more than welcome to. - My current invoicing rate is $120CAD/hr. I'm definitely not at a 100% utilization on that, but the given the other perks, it works out to a very comfortable living. As an unrelated curiosity, do you have developers right now who you feel are awesome? Do they not having anyone in their close networks that they could try to bring in?
      • polack 11y ago
        I think we are paying around 1.6 times more for the consultants right now. I understand that many of them have pretty sweet deals, but at the same time there is a lot of perks being employed over here too, especially if you have kids. We have some great developers now, all of whom came in on personal connections, but it feels like we hit a stop there.
• pauleastlund 11y ago
  I think it's partly a matter of priming the pump with a one or two fantastic initial hires. Go above and beyond to get a couple terrific people on board (offer a title, or an opportunity to earn a title, or a big piece of equity, etc.), and then you have "and we have an amazing team" as a big new piece of your sales pitch to the rest. Anecdotally -- from my own job search experiences, and from my experiences hiring engineers at a few different places -- a candidate's sense of the people they'll be working is a huge factor in their decision. Make that factor strongly in your favor and you'll be in good shape. Also, don't be afraid to have a rigorous technical interview process -- I think that can double as a sales pitch for great candidates who want to be at companies that recognize and appreciate their skills.
  • polack 11y ago
    This is great advice. I will try to reach out to some more high-profile people here in the local community. Maybe a nice title and a position with lots of freedom could interest someone.
• EliRivers 11y ago
  "We know how important a good core team is for a startup, so we don't want to hire people we don't think fits in our team." Is this code for "cultural fit"?
• robodale 11y ago
  I'm a Senior Full-Stack Software Developer+Engineer born and living in the US with 14 years experience. I have a job right now, but I'm in the "Active Looking" status. I'm remote only, but would like to visit the company once in a while. I know how to ship. Hit me up.
• edoceo 11y ago
  1) your space is "boring" and a start-up is high risk; you will naturally have to evaluate a larger number of applicants before finding the right one. From my experience when I worked in banking (USA, c2005) we had a hard time finding devs; in adult-content (c2009) applicants were plentiful; now I'm back in regulatory compliance and devs are "hard" to find; my associates in the-next-hot-lo-mo-so app have more candidates 2) You may be able to find one good dev-hire as a core builder; and continue to run with consultants going forward. Many times I've been able to engage a dev-consultant part-time and continue to increase the engagement - transitioning into full-time (or close to it).
  • DrQuack 11y ago
    Don't mean to derail the thread, but how come applicants for adult-content were plentiful? I would expect most people to try to avoid that area, if only for the reputation "costs"?
    • atmosx 11y ago
      Towards whom? Handling HA in porn websites, especially in the top-20, is quite a challenge IMHO and any mid-to-senior DevOps/sysadmin position in such a company would carry some weight to a resume.
• DrQuack 11y ago
  Why not try to post in this month's Who is hiring? thread?
• JSeymourATL 11y ago
  Simple: Give developers good reasons to join. It's not always about perks and benefits. Everyone wants their work to mean something. Alan Eustace, SVP of Engineering @ Google, is often called their best recruiter. You might find some ideas that apply to your situation > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvebAGerh88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvebAGerh88
• tixocloud 11y ago
  To attract great engineers, show them these interesting problems that you're trying to solve. Talk about it publicly. Start an engineering blog. Network at tech events. You're right in that a startup represents risk - what else can you offer in place of that risk? More money? More time? More freedom? More opportunity? You'll have to figure out what ticks with the developers you're trying to attract.
• algorithm_dk 11y ago
  Leave some contact information.
• smilesnd 11y ago
  As a dev I will say this the hiring process sucks. I have learn that during the interview process unless it is written down and signed then it is probably a lie. Companies will say anything to get me to sign a piece of paper. Saying you use the latest technology or work on interesting problems doesn't tickle my pickle.If you want to get me excited about working for your startup take me out to lunch. Let me talk to the people I would be working with on a daily bases. Let me ask them what they think about the project and day to day operations and such. The best interview experience I ever had was just that simple. I knew I could work along the guys and they gave me a clear picture what to expect working there. Salary is always negotiable and all that other stuff.
  • accountatwork 11y ago
    > I have learn that during the interview process unless it is written down and signed then it is probably a lie. This happened to me when I took a job at Microsoft and it sucked. The worst thing was that when I asked around I found that Microsoft does this kind of bait and switch all the time and that a lot of other people were in a similar situation and thought that it was normal. It's not normal. People should not lie to you about what a job is going to be, and there are many companies that will try to give you good information about what the job will be like.
• take_five 11y ago
  As someone who considers himself a good developer, I'll try to share some points with you. Hopefully they will be helpful, even if I'm positive you'll find at least one of them outrageous. 1) Companies don't do a good job of communicating their story. A typical job ad is a listing of technical terms. I don't care about them for the most part. What I want to hear is your story. That includes: - Who you are, how you came to be - What the problem you're trying to solve is, whom it will help. Do I make the lives of poor children better or do I help yet another rich bastard from Wall Street to get even richer? Now, for me that matters. - What you have done already, what worked, what didn't, what you plan to do next - Who the people you have are, their backgrounds, their culture, their interests, their personalities - What the working culture is like, the process, the values, the priorities, the attitude - Handling of all kinds of non-standard situations, personal conflicts. What if someone wants to work remotely, needs specific hardware/furniture, would like to take a break for whatever reasons, then come back? Will this be discussed or faced with a stone wall? - Technical stuff, just to be thorough, in the last place though Basically anything and everything to tell me who you are. Otherwise I can't distinguish between you and hundreds of others. The job ads which are personal stand out, sadly these only come as frequently as the year digits change. 2) If you want someone to come to work for you in your office, you absolutely must provide a complete and thorough relocation package covering the entire expenses. It's been said before in the thread, but it deserves to be mentioned as a separate answer. I don't know much about Denmark, but I'm familiar with Germany. Let's say you were based in Munich and wanted a great developer to come to you. This is what I'm thinking: - To rent and set up an apartment in Munich you'd need at least 10-12K Euros in cash upfront - Contracts are typically for a year minimum, that's another 15K Euros in delayed obligations - If I come, find out after two weeks we don't fit and want to leave, I'll end up with a huge debt of close to 30K Euros, a punishment just for trying a new job - If I stay, with the demeaning salaries offered by German companies, it'll still going to take some 12-18 months to compensate those expenses. Meaning I will be working for free for all this time. - Verdict: I'm staying home. Even a job as a cleaning personnel is better than that, as in more lucrative and safer. But of course I'll just find a remote job for whomever pays the highest bid. Developers are in demand, you know. And this is not even the worst. In France you need to have someone to vouch for you financially to be able to rent an apartment. In Belgium the minimum contract duration is either 3 or 8 years (considered short-term and long-term). Also, in France you have to pay some yearly tax as a tenant. What if I leave after a couple of months? Who's going to settle that when the year end comes, while I'm away with my visa long expired? In short, unless the company is completely taking away those risks and problems, there's just nothing that could compel me to move. 3) Pay good money. I think for a good developer a very basic arrangement should start at about 4000 Euros as takeaway money, after taxes, rent, utilities and everything else. If that is someone who stands out, the price is higher. 4) Be flexible in all kinds of arrangements. Payment, working hours, holidays, everything should be open for negotiation. Things like NDAs and non-competes will scare away many great developers who have their own projects. Since you are run by VCs, they probably force you to require those documents to be signed by any hire, and that is a problem you'll have to solve before looking for great people. 5) Be nice and respectful with people. Don't push them through humiliating technical interviews. Don't tell them their CV is a lie. Don't tell them they have a wrong degree, they are not smart and don't have what it takes to be a great developer. Germany companies are notorious for being extremely arrogant and condescending, but others may be different. Just know if you have those personality traits, you have to keep them in check, as people from other cultures may find them plain hostile. If you have these basics covered, you shouldn't have much problem finding people.
• evm9 11y ago
  From my experience, paying the premium to get on GitHub, StackOverflow, and any other major job post site as well as paying mid to upper six figures will always bring in good candidates. Also offering a killer relocation package to candidates that aren't located near you can help.
  • ereckers 11y ago
    Mid to upper six figures alone aught to do it.
• lordkrandel 11y ago
  Start searching in role-playing groups. Seriously. Talk about your ideas to the people who play.
• sharemywin 11y ago
  Most people don't jump for lateral moves. That leaves two options. Pay a lot more or find someone that can grow into the role. It's that simple. Or spend a lot of time, money and energy looking for someone that's dumb enough to jump for a lateral move.
  • throweway 11y ago
    I jumped for lateral move. For a better work environment and culture. To escape high pressure and assholes.
    • sharemywin 11y ago
      fair point. but, I suspect that they are a high pressure environment.
• d4rkph1b3r 11y ago
  1. Are you sure you're offering above market? I can't tell you the number of times i've been contacted by a company with a 'great market rate' salary, offering me a better position than I'm in, for way less than my current salary. 2. Smart people want to work with smart people, so make sure the people doing the interview are doing the right things to attract the right folks. If I see a red flag in an interview, I'm going to be very weary. 3. Get involved in a community! Whatever your stack is, start going to meetups for it, release some open source, give talks on your infrastructure, etc. Pretty soon you can be one of the names that comes up when someone is looking to work with a certain technology. Look at Jane Street's model. They are a tiny (or, at least used to be, maybe now they're just small) compared to the big companies. They are the OCaml guys, they don't have a big team, but if you want to make $$$ are interested in functional programming, you absolutely look into working there and their name comes up in a lot of conversations. Good luck!
• tmaly 11y ago
  Its a slow grind using the traditional approaches. The current best developer in my group I hired after a 2.5 year search. I would look for people that have side projects that are open sourced online. It shows they have a passion for what they do. People who understand core programming concepts but program in a different language are ones I would consider if there are few candidates available in the language you use.
• S4M 11y ago
  Would you consider remote contractors? I (think I) am a decent full stack guy, and used to be a Quant (mentioning that because you said in the comments that your startup is in finance). Now I do contracts to fund my own startup. My email is in my profile.