5 ms·

> The issue is that the prices are too high for perceived value. How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? This is a seri

by kevinr 11y ago

> The issue is that the prices are too high for perceived value. How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? This is a serious question: just a few days ago I was suggesting that a friend, twenty published books over the last thirty years, books you may have read or heard of, start a Patreon so that he might, for the first time in his life, afford health insurance. People working full-time in publishing might have health insurance but are working for well below market (by outside of tech standards, which are pretty embarrassing) in some of the most expensive cities on earth. And they can't just move, because then they'd get converted to contract and lose their health insurance. This is not to shame you for buying used books---that's fine, there's no way I'd have the library I do without them, and I grew up groveling the library and used bookstores because that was all we could afford. Readers are readers. But---and I encounter this again and again---readers' perception of value in books is fundamentally misaligned with the actual economics of the book trade, to the detriment of both.

eru 11y ago
If readers value books, but not enough to make writing pay, isn't the economic thing to stop being a professional writer?
- kevinr 11y ago
  Or to try to convince readers to value books more.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    If I have $30 to spend on books each month, is it better to spend on one book so one author can eat well, or spend it on two books so two authors can simply eat?
    - elthran 11y ago
      Or why not 4 books so I can maximize my personal enjoyment and cultural enrichment?
      - kevinr 11y ago
        Why spend $12 at a bar for a cheeseburger when a Big Mac is $4 or ramen is $0.25 ?
        anon4 11y ago
        Because you're an idiot? Alternatively, because you want to socialise with rich people. In all cases, the better alternative is to buy fish and vegetables for 6$ and cook them yourself for a healthy and nutritious meal.
        punch_rascal13 11y ago
        sample2
        coldtea 11y ago
        Spending $12 for a burger is considered "rich"? You pay close to that in most dinners... And the $4 McDonalds/Dennys/JITB/whatever burger is nowhere close to the $8 or $12 burger you get in actual restaurants. Besides, the point of dining out is not getting stuffed with food on the cheap to avoid hunger.
        cr1895 11y ago
        >Because you're an idiot? You know this adds nothing to the discussion, and only encourages people to disregard everything you're saying, right? I'm a good cook, but my favorite burger place charges around 12eur for a burger and I'm happy to pay it because I can't easily recreate the same at home, and it's freaking delicious. "Because I want to socialize with rich people" is beyond absurd.
  - dragandj 11y ago
    Good luck with that.
  - eru 11y ago
    Sure, if you can pull it off.
paganel 11y ago
> How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? I'm not the OP, but seeing as most of my favourite authors are already dead (some have been so for more than a century) I would so: "not so much". The "would someone think of the content creators" mantra kind of works (up to a point) in the music and movie industries, where Taylor Swift doesn't compete against long-time dead J.S. Bach, nor does Star Wars compete against Melies's films, while any new fiction author has to compete against long-time dead authors like Proust, Kafka, Joyce or Ray Bradbury.
- kevinr 11y ago
  I'm glad you're finding works you enjoy among the classics! I have a long fondness for Bradbury, Shelley, Conan Doyle, etc., but they didn't write, oh, Hal Duncan's VELLUM, or Christopher Barzak's THE LOVE WE SHARE WITHOUT KNOWING, or Silvia Moreno-Garcia's SIGNAL TO NOISE---I don't think they could have been written before the last decade or so, and I don't see that they compete any more with Proust than Taylor Swift does. There will always be a market for new fiction.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  Just out of interest, would any of them still be alive if they'd had health insurance?
- cr1895 11y ago
  But what about, for instance, the translators of the modern editions of Kafka's work? Or the musicians who play Bach's music today?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
toyg 11y ago
The reality of the matter is that the ungodly amount of offer reduces book value to a very low level. Between books published in the last 200 years and the humongous amounts published every week, there is just too much choice to justify spending significant sums on individual books. I suspect the answer will be a switch to "open publishing", with authors and editors collaborating via websites like on OSS programs and then monetizing on "stores", hence keeping costs so low that they can work on economies of scale.
iamben 11y ago
Right, so as the parent suggested, the comparison to the music industry is pretty apt. A handful of popular superstars live very well. In the middle you make enough to live, but not to live well or from forever, but you do get to do what you love. At the bottom you have people who do it because they love it - either terribly, or in a very specialist niche that takes a lot of skill/creativity and will be extremely valued but by only a few. I try to buy records/merch from (some of) my favourite bands. I value them greatly. They'll never make a decent living from it.
lmm 11y ago
Serious answer: I think there is a huge oversupply of authors at the moment. The world would probably be better off if half of all authors (selected at random) were to quit and go find something more productive/lucrative to do. (I think everyone, even people who simply don't want to work, should be able to eat and receive reasonable medical care. Authors not having healthcare is terrible, but no more terrible than unemployed people not having healthcare; the problem there is the crazy American healthcare system)
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Serious answer: I think there is a huge oversupply of authors at the moment. The world would probably be better off if half of all authors (selected at random) were to quit and go find something more productive/lucrative to do. Or you know, let them do whatever they want, and price THEIR work however they want, and then either buy it or don't buy it.
  - lmm 11y ago
    Sure. But if they're choosing to be an author in full knowledge of the economics of it, "working well below market" as the grandparent said, then they shouldn't complain about not earning much money.
    - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
      You can choose something bad but still not have better choices available. If it's their best option are they allowed to complain then?
      - lmm 11y ago
        Yes. My understanding of "working well below market" is that it by definition means there are much better-paying jobs available to them, no?
        pbhjpbhj 11y ago
mruniverse 11y ago
People don't buy books because they value their favorite authors eating or having health insurance. They buy the books because they want to read them. > readers' perception of value in books is fundamentally misaligned with the actual economics of the book trade, to the detriment of both. The actual cost of a book has no bearing on it's value. You could spend a billion on editing, publicity, materials, etc. and if no one wants to read it good luck.
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
>How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? // Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money, there's a wider accessible market, lower production cost. But publishers moved to close the market and to increase the selling price whilst at the same time accruing the added profit from the reduction in production cost. The blame here shouldn't be on those buying the books who refuse to be screwed by the publishers. Readers don't care about the booktrade, they want to read books and have authors rewarded for writing them, the booktrade somehow doesn't seem to help much to this end. Instead of starting a Patreon, perhaps your writer friend could sell books to readers rather than to a publishing house?
- kevinr 11y ago
  > Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money, there's a wider accessible market, lower production cost. The market is... different. Wider in some ways, narrower in others. Young adult fiction is largely nonexistent in ebook, still, because young adults' access to e-reading devices is still more limited than adults', and they are less likely to discover fiction online than through more traditional channels. The production costs are, again, not significantly lower in ebook than print. > Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money While that's been the going theory in some parts for a while, in practice it hasn't turned out that way.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    >The production costs are, again, not significantly lower in ebook than print. // But the prices have been / are often higher. I see that good ebooks have some extra typesetting and such, but that should be largely automated with the production of print ready copy. How can they not save on paper, presses, covers, delivery, distribution? Yes editing, proofing, marketing, cover design, etc., still costs. Devices don't seem that discounted that there should be an extra load per book to post for them. Do you have a source for eBook production costs, would be interested to look at financials vs. traditional publishing.
    - ghaff 11y ago
zeveb 11y ago
> > The issue is that the prices are too high for perceived value. > How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? I give to charities to take care of those who can't take care of themselves; I buy entertainment to be entertained. > readers' perception of value in books is fundamentally misaligned with the actual economics of the book trade, to the detriment of both. Then maybe the profession of writer will gradually go away, much as the profession of fencing master (the real sort, who taught how to win in a fight, not at sport) has.

by kevinr 11y ago

eru 11y ago

If readers value books, but not enough to make writing pay, isn't the economic thing to stop being a professional writer?

kevinr 11y ago
Or to try to convince readers to value books more.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  If I have $30 to spend on books each month, is it better to spend on one book so one author can eat well, or spend it on two books so two authors can simply eat?
  - elthran 11y ago
    Or why not 4 books so I can maximize my personal enjoyment and cultural enrichment?
    - kevinr 11y ago
      Why spend $12 at a bar for a cheeseburger when a Big Mac is $4 or ramen is $0.25 ?
      - anon4 11y ago
        Because you're an idiot? Alternatively, because you want to socialise with rich people. In all cases, the better alternative is to buy fish and vegetables for 6$ and cook them yourself for a healthy and nutritious meal.
        punch_rascal13 11y ago
        sample2
        coldtea 11y ago
        Spending $12 for a burger is considered "rich"? You pay close to that in most dinners... And the $4 McDonalds/Dennys/JITB/whatever burger is nowhere close to the $8 or $12 burger you get in actual restaurants. Besides, the point of dining out is not getting stuffed with food on the cheap to avoid hunger.
        cr1895 11y ago
        >Because you're an idiot? You know this adds nothing to the discussion, and only encourages people to disregard everything you're saying, right? I'm a good cook, but my favorite burger place charges around 12eur for a burger and I'm happy to pay it because I can't easily recreate the same at home, and it's freaking delicious. "Because I want to socialize with rich people" is beyond absurd.
- dragandj 11y ago
  Good luck with that.
- eru 11y ago
  Sure, if you can pull it off.

paganel 11y ago

> How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? I'm not the OP, but seeing as most of my favourite authors are already dead (some have been so for more than a century) I would so: "not so much". The "would someone think of the content creators" mantra kind of works (up to a point) in the music and movie industries, where Taylor Swift doesn't compete against long-time dead J.S. Bach, nor does Star Wars compete against Melies's films, while any new fiction author has to compete against long-time dead authors like Proust, Kafka, Joyce or Ray Bradbury.

kevinr 11y ago
I'm glad you're finding works you enjoy among the classics! I have a long fondness for Bradbury, Shelley, Conan Doyle, etc., but they didn't write, oh, Hal Duncan's VELLUM, or Christopher Barzak's THE LOVE WE SHARE WITHOUT KNOWING, or Silvia Moreno-Garcia's SIGNAL TO NOISE---I don't think they could have been written before the last decade or so, and I don't see that they compete any more with Proust than Taylor Swift does. There will always be a market for new fiction.
EliRivers 11y ago
Just out of interest, would any of them still be alive if they'd had health insurance?
cr1895 11y ago
But what about, for instance, the translators of the modern editions of Kafka's work? Or the musicians who play Bach's music today?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

toyg 11y ago

The reality of the matter is that the ungodly amount of offer reduces book value to a very low level. Between books published in the last 200 years and the humongous amounts published every week, there is just too much choice to justify spending significant sums on individual books. I suspect the answer will be a switch to "open publishing", with authors and editors collaborating via websites like on OSS programs and then monetizing on "stores", hence keeping costs so low that they can work on economies of scale.

iamben 11y ago

Right, so as the parent suggested, the comparison to the music industry is pretty apt. A handful of popular superstars live very well. In the middle you make enough to live, but not to live well or from forever, but you do get to do what you love. At the bottom you have people who do it because they love it - either terribly, or in a very specialist niche that takes a lot of skill/creativity and will be extremely valued but by only a few. I try to buy records/merch from (some of) my favourite bands. I value them greatly. They'll never make a decent living from it.

lmm 11y ago

Serious answer: I think there is a huge oversupply of authors at the moment. The world would probably be better off if half of all authors (selected at random) were to quit and go find something more productive/lucrative to do. (I think everyone, even people who simply don't want to work, should be able to eat and receive reasonable medical care. Authors not having healthcare is terrible, but no more terrible than unemployed people not having healthcare; the problem there is the crazy American healthcare system)

coldtea 11y ago
>Serious answer: I think there is a huge oversupply of authors at the moment. The world would probably be better off if half of all authors (selected at random) were to quit and go find something more productive/lucrative to do. Or you know, let them do whatever they want, and price THEIR work however they want, and then either buy it or don't buy it.
- lmm 11y ago
  Sure. But if they're choosing to be an author in full knowledge of the economics of it, "working well below market" as the grandparent said, then they shouldn't complain about not earning much money.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    You can choose something bad but still not have better choices available. If it's their best option are they allowed to complain then?
    - lmm 11y ago
      Yes. My understanding of "working well below market" is that it by definition means there are much better-paying jobs available to them, no?
      - pbhjpbhj 11y ago

mruniverse 11y ago

People don't buy books because they value their favorite authors eating or having health insurance. They buy the books because they want to read them. > readers' perception of value in books is fundamentally misaligned with the actual economics of the book trade, to the detriment of both. The actual cost of a book has no bearing on it's value. You could spend a billion on editing, publicity, materials, etc. and if no one wants to read it good luck.

pbhjpbhj 11y ago

>How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? // Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money, there's a wider accessible market, lower production cost. But publishers moved to close the market and to increase the selling price whilst at the same time accruing the added profit from the reduction in production cost. The blame here shouldn't be on those buying the books who refuse to be screwed by the publishers. Readers don't care about the booktrade, they want to read books and have authors rewarded for writing them, the booktrade somehow doesn't seem to help much to this end. Instead of starting a Patreon, perhaps your writer friend could sell books to readers rather than to a publishing house?

kevinr 11y ago
> Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money, there's a wider accessible market, lower production cost. The market is... different. Wider in some ways, narrower in others. Young adult fiction is largely nonexistent in ebook, still, because young adults' access to e-reading devices is still more limited than adults', and they are less likely to discover fiction online than through more traditional channels. The production costs are, again, not significantly lower in ebook than print. > Thing is with ebooks the author should make more money While that's been the going theory in some parts for a while, in practice it hasn't turned out that way.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >The production costs are, again, not significantly lower in ebook than print. // But the prices have been / are often higher. I see that good ebooks have some extra typesetting and such, but that should be largely automated with the production of print ready copy. How can they not save on paper, presses, covers, delivery, distribution? Yes editing, proofing, marketing, cover design, etc., still costs. Devices don't seem that discounted that there should be an extra load per book to post for them. Do you have a source for eBook production costs, would be interested to look at financials vs. traditional publishing.
  - ghaff 11y ago

zeveb 11y ago

> > The issue is that the prices are too high for perceived value. > How much do you value your favorite authors eating or having health insurance? I give to charities to take care of those who can't take care of themselves; I buy entertainment to be entertained. > readers' perception of value in books is fundamentally misaligned with the actual economics of the book trade, to the detriment of both. Then maybe the profession of writer will gradually go away, much as the profession of fencing master (the real sort, who taught how to win in a fight, not at sport) has.