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There's a moment in the pilot of The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt where the women are rescued from the bunker and put on a daytime talk show and Matt Lauer asks on

There's a moment in the pilot of The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt where the women are rescued from the bunker and put on a daytime talk show and Matt Lauer asks one of the women how she ended up in the bunker: "I had waited on Reverend Richard at a York Steak House I worked at, and one night he invited me out to his car to see some baby rabbits, and I didn’t want to be rude, so… here we are." And Matt Lauer responds: "I’m always amazed by what women will do because they’re afraid of being rude…" It's often hard for men to understand the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world.

cgriswald 11y ago
I've found they also have an amazing ability to make excuses for the behaviors of others. I had an ex who got into a lot of sketchy situations because she refused to believe people were exactly who they were telling her they were. Guys would do inappropriate things that clearly bothered her, but she would claim they were "joking" or believe she misunderstood, etc. etc. So she wouldn't set any boundaries, and of course they would see that as a signal to escalate until she couldn't handle it anymore and would have to call in the cavalry. (That got old fast.)
- dsfyu404ed 11y ago
  That ability to rationalize bad excuses you just described is an interstate highway with four lanes in each direction.
- meowface 11y ago
  While many people are like this, it seems a bit unfair to stereotype all women as gullible.
  - fpgaminer 11y ago
    The behavior being described is not what I'd call gullible, but I agree with you that it is unfair to stereotype women with the characteristic.
  - randyrand 11y ago
    Was he talking about all women, or just the median woman?
    - noobermin 11y ago
      This line of thinking could be used to justify all sorts of stereotypes. Not saying that's good or bad,but one could talk about the median woman, black, white, asian...etc.
      - randyrand 11y ago
        Generalization is important. It helps us manage complexity. When making generalizations, or stereotyping, it is definitely a good thing to talk about the median person. For instance, Bernie Sanders gets a lot of his appeal by appealing to the generalized, stereotyped american public. Its an incredibly important skill to be able to make those generalizations in order to get appeal. When talking about "Wall Street" his message is not "this is a multifaceted topic". Instead Wall Street is stereotyped to simplify his arguments.
- feintruled 11y ago
  Of course, in moderation making excuses for others (or rather, putting a positive spin on their actions) can lead for an easier and more stress free life. I have been amazed at times when behaviour from others I have considered unremarkable has been interpreted in any entirely different way by someone else. For example, a boss I considered to be trying his best is considered by others as an upper management ass-kisser who would back stab any of his team members in a heart beat to get ahead. This is working off the same information as I had. The person holding this view seemed to spend their days in a state of seething resentment, compared to my (blissful) ignorance. They would of course consider me stupidly naive!
  - mpweiher 11y ago
    > .. easier and more stress free life This. So much this. Where a lot of posters here see "downtrodden victim of societal pressures", I see people who like to take the easier route. Speaking up for yourself is hard. For everyone. It's pretty much always easier to let it slide, not rock the boat, appease, downplay etc.
    - angmarsbane 11y ago
      Making excuses can be a way to try and protect yourself. If you're afraid someone will escalate if you say no then you will try to tolerate or say yes as much as you can and hope that is a slower route to the escalation.
- marincounty 11y ago
  I had one of those gems too. I now have a deviated septum. It was in my thirties, and she was hot. When I realized she went into situations looking for drama; I finally told her to get lost. I was drinking pretty heavily when I was dating her. I thought she was this misunderstood goth chick. Well, when I stopped drinking, I saw the sutle cues she was giving out. The little coy looks, while I was getting drinks. Actively stretching her neck in order to hear some idiot say anything remotely sexist. I think she enjoyed the fights I got in over her. She just needed to know she was pretty enough to fight over? Well--no one is fighting over her anymore. The labial facial lines are deep. The gray is comming through the black die. The magic is gone. Her fiery personality is now just angry, and bitter. Age is a leveler of that beauty asset. I thought I was the least superficial man in the world. I used to laugh at guys who doted over pretty women. I used to tell girlfriends upfront, "I'm not one of those guys who momma will like. I wish I was more like your other boyfriends?" I thought I was in charge. Thought? Boy, I was wrong. And I have a nasal cavity to prove it. She was an anomaly though. I never had this problem(defending thy maidens honor) with anyone else. She definetly had me fooled, or my drinking blinded me from seeing the person she really was?
  - Practicality 11y ago
    While this has definitely gotten off topic, I appreciate your story. I hope writing about it was therapeutic.
  - goblinking 11y ago
    "Well--no one is fighting over her anymore. The labial facial lines are deep. The gray is comming through the black die. The magic is gone. Her fiery personality is now just angry, and bitter. Age is a leveler of that beauty asset." You captured the "bar hottie -> bingo lady" transition very nicely
- kaitai 11y ago
  While I take mild offense at your characterization (#notallwomen!), I will point out that many women are trained from a very young age to make those excuses and not set boundaries. They have to hug the family member who creeps on them because else they are rude; they can't hit back the kid who hit them first and they're told to think, "Maybe he's having a bad day -- you should give him a hug instead!" For fun, check out the time out chairs at this Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/listing/247648122/boys-and-girls-time-out-chairs https://www.etsy.com/listing/247648122/boys-and-girls-time-o... Girls are supposed to be nice and listen. Boys are supposed to not kick or shout. Be nice -- that's where the excuses start getting made. It's a hard message to get out of your psyche.
pervycreeper 11y ago
> the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world Without commenting on whether this is a fair assessment, I will observe that in order to make this case for this to be true, more evidence than a single (fictional) anecdote would be necessary, and one would also want to accurately assess whether non-women are also expected not to be rude.
- printering 11y ago
  Donald Trump.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison.
    - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
      Professor Fate! (Wait, we're just naming random people who come to mind, right? That's what this thread is about, I gather?)
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Try to keep up. The OP stated "and one would also want to accurately assess whether non-women are also expected not to be rude". So I provided two very good examples. Donald Trump is another. Unless you believe that Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison were/are expected to be polite constantly.
        oldmanjay 11y ago
        Roseanne Barr. There, women aren't expected to polite constantly either, since you seem to believe visible exceptions prove some sort of point.
  - facepalm 11y ago
epx 11y ago
Agree with this, but men are victims of stalking as well (considering the theme of the article). Perhaps the article insisted too much that it is a women's problem. In any case, if the laws related to staking don't exclude male victims, good enough.
- xenadu02 11y ago
  They don't exclude men. The ability to get LEO to give a crap varied by jurisdiction but plenty of guys have managed to get consequences enforced on their male or female harassers. Mostly I think it's a result of the average LEO/judge being older and having no clue what the consequences are of the ongoing harassment. It's definitely true that lots of judges/prosecutors have told people to "just get off the internet".
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    >They don't exclude men. Laws don't exclude, but their application and interpretation sometimes does. Not long ago in my country, there was a proposal to add funding to research domestic violence committed by women. The women's organisations of all major political parties (except one) signed a common statement which opposed the funding of this research. They said it was diverting attention away from the main problem which is violence by men. This they were saying without looking at the actual numbers. They were in fact opposing research to find out and evaluate the actual numbers. The actual numbers in this country from crime statistics: in 2008, the victims of domestic violence in homicide and grievous bodily harm cases were 116 men and 111 women. This was irrelevant, according to these political women's organisations. The issue was raised to public consciousness when a man, assaulted by his wife, brought to publicity the response he had got from calling 112 (emergency number), where the police dispatcher said to him: "What, are you letting a woman beat you up?" Yes, laws are in principle gender neutral, but their application is in many cases favouring one gender. Often the favoured gender is women.
    - LordKano 11y ago
      There is a huge gender bias in play. In the US(and probably most other western countries), domestic violence is viewed as only something that men do to women. It's treated as a joke when a woman is violent against a man and it's completely ignored that lesbian couples have the same rate of domestic violence as heterosexual couples.
fpgaminer 11y ago
> It's often hard for men to understand the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world. Sorry, but I'm going to have to call out this statement as sexist. There are also several other strange "facts" being passed around in other comments which are similarly biased. To be clear, I'm not calling you sexist. In fact, I think your comment makes a great point about submission to societal pressures leading to these sorts of problems. Getting back to the quoted statement, I strongly suspect both genders are equally susceptible to being manipulated by societal pressures. I also don't think men find it hard to understand this. If there's data to show otherwise, I welcome it. In its absence, I believe it more wise to hold this neutral view rather than perpetuating a gender bias. Let's use Curb Your Enthusiasm as a means to elucidate my argument. The lead character in that show gets into all manner of uncomfortable and disastrous situations as a result of bending to societal pressures; not wanting to be "rude". The lead character is male and I'll bet more guys than not can relate. Perhaps not to the same scale as what is portrayed in the show, because the show is meant to be entertaining, but perhaps more on the level of The Office (US) awkwardness. So I doubt that societal malleability differs between the genders. You're still right in bringing it up, though, because indeed this habit of not wanting to be rude is clearly a contributing factor to cyberstalking cases. I just don't think it's what leads to a greater number of females being victims versus males.
- scott_s 11y ago
  Both genders receive societal pressure. But they receive different societal pressure. It is not sexist to suggest that members of a gender many not understand the particulars of the pressure experienced by the other gender.
- anupamsr 11y ago
  Get married. See the true societal pressure.
- prawn 11y ago
  I agree that men also feel pressure to accommodate requests they might rather not. I think it can arise due to an imbalance of whatever sort. I've been in that position with males with whom I didn't want to escalate a situation and with males while on their home turf (say, in a strange country). But I tend not to fear being assaulted by a woman or tricked/trapped by a woman in a foreign country. People routinely get scammed because they are too polite or fearful to say no or walk away. Females might feel that imbalance a little more?
anupamsr 11y ago
This is simply not true. The 'societal pressure' on women to be accommodating is the cost levied on women for being allowed to be judge and jury about how someone is treating them. To quote, 'with great power comes great responsibility'. By missing the power part of the equation, you are creating a victim of responsibility. In a world where women actually don't have to face any repercussion for being irresponsible, I think you are making a grave mistake.
- anupamsr 11y ago
  The way I am getting down modded only proves that HN is mostly frequented by men. Only men enjoy looking at women as powerless entity with no agency.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    Or it could be that what you're saying has no bearing in reality at all, and is just you trying to blame the victim.
    - anupamsr 11y ago
      Mistakes are pointed out so they can be avoided, not to blame. Can you find where I have blamed the author of the article? You can't 'cuz I didn't. Or you really really think that women shouldn't learn to protect privacy?
facepalm 11y ago
Um how is the "societal pressure" not to be rude different for women and men? In general people try not to be rude. Not only because of societal pressure, but also to avoid escalation of conflicts. What is different is that women get asked out a lot more than men, so maybe they are more often confronted with the task of rejecting somebody. There is no indication here that being rude would have prevented the stalking.
- jahewson 11y ago
  > Um how is the "societal pressure" not to be rude different for women and men? Where to begin? A rude man might be described as "tough", "assertive", or "confident". What would a rude woman be described as? Moreover, what constituted rudeness for a man? How about for a woman? See the double standard?
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    Hopefully this is changing, and people will come to view rudeness as equally negative (or positive) regardless of gender. I for one would not describe a rude man in any way that wouldn't also apply equally to a rude woman.
  - stevetrewick 11y ago
    >See the double standard No, not in real life. Wherever you live/work is fucked up if you do (academia, perchance ?). Rude men are just described as rude, often in less polite ways. I've worked bars, factories, manual labour, all the way up to board rooms and I have never once seen this particular double standard applied. I say this as someone with both a keen eye for and a near zero tolerance of prejudice and discrimination of any kind.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      Imagine a business meeting. A person is talking, and a man interrupts and talks over that person. The person asserts themselves, and tells the interrupting man not to interrupt. That person is more likely to be seen as confident or assertive if they're a man, and more likely to be seen as shrill or bitchy if they're a woman. > I have never once seen this particular double standard applied. I say this as someone with both a keen eye for and a near zero tolerance of prejudice and discrimination of any kind. I'm surprised by this, because it's very very common, and has been written about in national newspapers in different countries. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-while-female.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-wh... http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female-manterruptions/ http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google-chief-blasted-for-repeatedly-interrupting-female-government-official/ http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google... http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/12/03/womens-ideas-do-men-intentionally-steal-them/#4cf956002502 http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/12/03/womens-id... http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/stop-interrupting-me-gender.html http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/stop-interrup... etc etc.
misogyny101 11y ago
BS because: Man get conditioned from a very young age to get their sheet together and not let their life be steered by fear. And if they do. They are a fail. THIS is societal pressure. Not being able to saying no just means she is weak. She gives absolutely no reason for her being unable to say no. Except that she would like to NOT confront that bad feeling she might have. And YOU coming here and talking about her being socially pushed is exactly the opposite. YOU/WE (Society) (except me) are helping her with making her story become viral to not be socially pushed, but socially comforted. She has been socially comforted so much, that she has become unaccountable, unable to stand for herself. Thats my I'm taking the counterpart. I'm actually helping them get what they want. All they have to do is work for it.
- KaiserPro 11y ago
  I get what your saying. But, to expand this, you explain that men are generally conditioned to be fearless, if they are not, they are labelled girly, or something similar right? So conversely women are conditioned to be compliant/delicate right? Women are not allowed to fight, confront or be violent. After all women fighting is a fetish right? Now, lets get to the point, if a man writes a blog post about his crippling fear of something that might seem easy overcome, like water, or rain. Does that make him weak? Admitting to society that he is not what he is supposed to be? No. I'd also postulate that actually if she stood up to him, would he have stopped? Its unlikely, its a special type of person that stalks for 15 years. Its also a shame that you didn't feel confident to air your views under your real account.
- rl3 11y ago
  >Not being able to saying no just means she is weak. Or you know, since the guy started stalking her from the age of twelve, she may have been conditioned to accept that type of behavior, or otherwise failed to realize how serious it actually was until later. It's also very possible she didn't want to confront her stalker out of fear. Have you ever tried telling a crazy person they're crazy? Hint: it's usually impossible and almost always turns ugly. Good job personifying your username, though.
protomyth 11y ago
Be a guy and have a women ask you why their car isn't starting or can you help change a tire. Saying no in many parts of the world / US is unacceptable and considered rude. So, I guess male agency can be constrained in the same manner. Its amazing what guys will do not to look like an a__hole.
pg_is_a_butt 11y ago
YOU'RE A SEXIST BITCH.

cgriswald 11y ago

I've found they also have an amazing ability to make excuses for the behaviors of others. I had an ex who got into a lot of sketchy situations because she refused to believe people were exactly who they were telling her they were. Guys would do inappropriate things that clearly bothered her, but she would claim they were "joking" or believe she misunderstood, etc. etc. So she wouldn't set any boundaries, and of course they would see that as a signal to escalate until she couldn't handle it anymore and would have to call in the cavalry. (That got old fast.)

dsfyu404ed 11y ago
That ability to rationalize bad excuses you just described is an interstate highway with four lanes in each direction.
meowface 11y ago
While many people are like this, it seems a bit unfair to stereotype all women as gullible.
- fpgaminer 11y ago
  The behavior being described is not what I'd call gullible, but I agree with you that it is unfair to stereotype women with the characteristic.
- randyrand 11y ago
  Was he talking about all women, or just the median woman?
  - noobermin 11y ago
    This line of thinking could be used to justify all sorts of stereotypes. Not saying that's good or bad,but one could talk about the median woman, black, white, asian...etc.
    - randyrand 11y ago
      Generalization is important. It helps us manage complexity. When making generalizations, or stereotyping, it is definitely a good thing to talk about the median person. For instance, Bernie Sanders gets a lot of his appeal by appealing to the generalized, stereotyped american public. Its an incredibly important skill to be able to make those generalizations in order to get appeal. When talking about "Wall Street" his message is not "this is a multifaceted topic". Instead Wall Street is stereotyped to simplify his arguments.
feintruled 11y ago
Of course, in moderation making excuses for others (or rather, putting a positive spin on their actions) can lead for an easier and more stress free life. I have been amazed at times when behaviour from others I have considered unremarkable has been interpreted in any entirely different way by someone else. For example, a boss I considered to be trying his best is considered by others as an upper management ass-kisser who would back stab any of his team members in a heart beat to get ahead. This is working off the same information as I had. The person holding this view seemed to spend their days in a state of seething resentment, compared to my (blissful) ignorance. They would of course consider me stupidly naive!
- mpweiher 11y ago
  > .. easier and more stress free life This. So much this. Where a lot of posters here see "downtrodden victim of societal pressures", I see people who like to take the easier route. Speaking up for yourself is hard. For everyone. It's pretty much always easier to let it slide, not rock the boat, appease, downplay etc.
  - angmarsbane 11y ago
    Making excuses can be a way to try and protect yourself. If you're afraid someone will escalate if you say no then you will try to tolerate or say yes as much as you can and hope that is a slower route to the escalation.
marincounty 11y ago
I had one of those gems too. I now have a deviated septum. It was in my thirties, and she was hot. When I realized she went into situations looking for drama; I finally told her to get lost. I was drinking pretty heavily when I was dating her. I thought she was this misunderstood goth chick. Well, when I stopped drinking, I saw the sutle cues she was giving out. The little coy looks, while I was getting drinks. Actively stretching her neck in order to hear some idiot say anything remotely sexist. I think she enjoyed the fights I got in over her. She just needed to know she was pretty enough to fight over? Well--no one is fighting over her anymore. The labial facial lines are deep. The gray is comming through the black die. The magic is gone. Her fiery personality is now just angry, and bitter. Age is a leveler of that beauty asset. I thought I was the least superficial man in the world. I used to laugh at guys who doted over pretty women. I used to tell girlfriends upfront, "I'm not one of those guys who momma will like. I wish I was more like your other boyfriends?" I thought I was in charge. Thought? Boy, I was wrong. And I have a nasal cavity to prove it. She was an anomaly though. I never had this problem(defending thy maidens honor) with anyone else. She definetly had me fooled, or my drinking blinded me from seeing the person she really was?
- Practicality 11y ago
  While this has definitely gotten off topic, I appreciate your story. I hope writing about it was therapeutic.
- goblinking 11y ago
  "Well--no one is fighting over her anymore. The labial facial lines are deep. The gray is comming through the black die. The magic is gone. Her fiery personality is now just angry, and bitter. Age is a leveler of that beauty asset." You captured the "bar hottie -> bingo lady" transition very nicely
kaitai 11y ago
While I take mild offense at your characterization (#notallwomen!), I will point out that many women are trained from a very young age to make those excuses and not set boundaries. They have to hug the family member who creeps on them because else they are rude; they can't hit back the kid who hit them first and they're told to think, "Maybe he's having a bad day -- you should give him a hug instead!" For fun, check out the time out chairs at this Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/listing/247648122/boys-and-girls-time-out-chairs https://www.etsy.com/listing/247648122/boys-and-girls-time-o... Girls are supposed to be nice and listen. Boys are supposed to not kick or shout. Be nice -- that's where the excuses start getting made. It's a hard message to get out of your psyche.

pervycreeper 11y ago

> the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world Without commenting on whether this is a fair assessment, I will observe that in order to make this case for this to be true, more evidence than a single (fictional) anecdote would be necessary, and one would also want to accurately assess whether non-women are also expected not to be rude.

printering 11y ago
Donald Trump.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison.
  - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
    Professor Fate! (Wait, we're just naming random people who come to mind, right? That's what this thread is about, I gather?)
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Try to keep up. The OP stated "and one would also want to accurately assess whether non-women are also expected not to be rude". So I provided two very good examples. Donald Trump is another. Unless you believe that Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison were/are expected to be polite constantly.
      - oldmanjay 11y ago
        Roseanne Barr. There, women aren't expected to polite constantly either, since you seem to believe visible exceptions prove some sort of point.
- facepalm 11y ago

epx 11y ago

Agree with this, but men are victims of stalking as well (considering the theme of the article). Perhaps the article insisted too much that it is a women's problem. In any case, if the laws related to staking don't exclude male victims, good enough.

xenadu02 11y ago
They don't exclude men. The ability to get LEO to give a crap varied by jurisdiction but plenty of guys have managed to get consequences enforced on their male or female harassers. Mostly I think it's a result of the average LEO/judge being older and having no clue what the consequences are of the ongoing harassment. It's definitely true that lots of judges/prosecutors have told people to "just get off the internet".
- ptaipale 11y ago
  >They don't exclude men. Laws don't exclude, but their application and interpretation sometimes does. Not long ago in my country, there was a proposal to add funding to research domestic violence committed by women. The women's organisations of all major political parties (except one) signed a common statement which opposed the funding of this research. They said it was diverting attention away from the main problem which is violence by men. This they were saying without looking at the actual numbers. They were in fact opposing research to find out and evaluate the actual numbers. The actual numbers in this country from crime statistics: in 2008, the victims of domestic violence in homicide and grievous bodily harm cases were 116 men and 111 women. This was irrelevant, according to these political women's organisations. The issue was raised to public consciousness when a man, assaulted by his wife, brought to publicity the response he had got from calling 112 (emergency number), where the police dispatcher said to him: "What, are you letting a woman beat you up?" Yes, laws are in principle gender neutral, but their application is in many cases favouring one gender. Often the favoured gender is women.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    There is a huge gender bias in play. In the US(and probably most other western countries), domestic violence is viewed as only something that men do to women. It's treated as a joke when a woman is violent against a man and it's completely ignored that lesbian couples have the same rate of domestic violence as heterosexual couples.

fpgaminer 11y ago

> It's often hard for men to understand the societal pressure placed on women to be accommodating and not be rude and how this can be manipulated to constrain female agency in the world. Sorry, but I'm going to have to call out this statement as sexist. There are also several other strange "facts" being passed around in other comments which are similarly biased. To be clear, I'm not calling you sexist. In fact, I think your comment makes a great point about submission to societal pressures leading to these sorts of problems. Getting back to the quoted statement, I strongly suspect both genders are equally susceptible to being manipulated by societal pressures. I also don't think men find it hard to understand this. If there's data to show otherwise, I welcome it. In its absence, I believe it more wise to hold this neutral view rather than perpetuating a gender bias. Let's use Curb Your Enthusiasm as a means to elucidate my argument. The lead character in that show gets into all manner of uncomfortable and disastrous situations as a result of bending to societal pressures; not wanting to be "rude". The lead character is male and I'll bet more guys than not can relate. Perhaps not to the same scale as what is portrayed in the show, because the show is meant to be entertaining, but perhaps more on the level of The Office (US) awkwardness. So I doubt that societal malleability differs between the genders. You're still right in bringing it up, though, because indeed this habit of not wanting to be rude is clearly a contributing factor to cyberstalking cases. I just don't think it's what leads to a greater number of females being victims versus males.

scott_s 11y ago
Both genders receive societal pressure. But they receive different societal pressure. It is not sexist to suggest that members of a gender many not understand the particulars of the pressure experienced by the other gender.
anupamsr 11y ago
Get married. See the true societal pressure.
prawn 11y ago
I agree that men also feel pressure to accommodate requests they might rather not. I think it can arise due to an imbalance of whatever sort. I've been in that position with males with whom I didn't want to escalate a situation and with males while on their home turf (say, in a strange country). But I tend not to fear being assaulted by a woman or tricked/trapped by a woman in a foreign country. People routinely get scammed because they are too polite or fearful to say no or walk away. Females might feel that imbalance a little more?

anupamsr 11y ago

This is simply not true. The 'societal pressure' on women to be accommodating is the cost levied on women for being allowed to be judge and jury about how someone is treating them. To quote, 'with great power comes great responsibility'. By missing the power part of the equation, you are creating a victim of responsibility. In a world where women actually don't have to face any repercussion for being irresponsible, I think you are making a grave mistake.

anupamsr 11y ago
The way I am getting down modded only proves that HN is mostly frequented by men. Only men enjoy looking at women as powerless entity with no agency.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Or it could be that what you're saying has no bearing in reality at all, and is just you trying to blame the victim.
  - anupamsr 11y ago
    Mistakes are pointed out so they can be avoided, not to blame. Can you find where I have blamed the author of the article? You can't 'cuz I didn't. Or you really really think that women shouldn't learn to protect privacy?

facepalm 11y ago

Um how is the "societal pressure" not to be rude different for women and men? In general people try not to be rude. Not only because of societal pressure, but also to avoid escalation of conflicts. What is different is that women get asked out a lot more than men, so maybe they are more often confronted with the task of rejecting somebody. There is no indication here that being rude would have prevented the stalking.

jahewson 11y ago
> Um how is the "societal pressure" not to be rude different for women and men? Where to begin? A rude man might be described as "tough", "assertive", or "confident". What would a rude woman be described as? Moreover, what constituted rudeness for a man? How about for a woman? See the double standard?
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Hopefully this is changing, and people will come to view rudeness as equally negative (or positive) regardless of gender. I for one would not describe a rude man in any way that wouldn't also apply equally to a rude woman.
- stevetrewick 11y ago
  >See the double standard No, not in real life. Wherever you live/work is fucked up if you do (academia, perchance ?). Rude men are just described as rude, often in less polite ways. I've worked bars, factories, manual labour, all the way up to board rooms and I have never once seen this particular double standard applied. I say this as someone with both a keen eye for and a near zero tolerance of prejudice and discrimination of any kind.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Imagine a business meeting. A person is talking, and a man interrupts and talks over that person. The person asserts themselves, and tells the interrupting man not to interrupt. That person is more likely to be seen as confident or assertive if they're a man, and more likely to be seen as shrill or bitchy if they're a woman. > I have never once seen this particular double standard applied. I say this as someone with both a keen eye for and a near zero tolerance of prejudice and discrimination of any kind. I'm surprised by this, because it's very very common, and has been written about in national newspapers in different countries. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-while-female.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-wh... http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female-manterruptions/ http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female... http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google-chief-blasted-for-repeatedly-interrupting-female-government-official/ http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/03/19/google... http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/12/03/womens-ideas-do-men-intentionally-steal-them/#4cf956002502 http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/12/03/womens-id... http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/stop-interrupting-me-gender.html http://womeninastronomy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/stop-interrup... etc etc.

misogyny101 11y ago

BS because: Man get conditioned from a very young age to get their sheet together and not let their life be steered by fear. And if they do. They are a fail. THIS is societal pressure. Not being able to saying no just means she is weak. She gives absolutely no reason for her being unable to say no. Except that she would like to NOT confront that bad feeling she might have. And YOU coming here and talking about her being socially pushed is exactly the opposite. YOU/WE (Society) (except me) are helping her with making her story become viral to not be socially pushed, but socially comforted. She has been socially comforted so much, that she has become unaccountable, unable to stand for herself. Thats my I'm taking the counterpart. I'm actually helping them get what they want. All they have to do is work for it.

KaiserPro 11y ago
I get what your saying. But, to expand this, you explain that men are generally conditioned to be fearless, if they are not, they are labelled girly, or something similar right? So conversely women are conditioned to be compliant/delicate right? Women are not allowed to fight, confront or be violent. After all women fighting is a fetish right? Now, lets get to the point, if a man writes a blog post about his crippling fear of something that might seem easy overcome, like water, or rain. Does that make him weak? Admitting to society that he is not what he is supposed to be? No. I'd also postulate that actually if she stood up to him, would he have stopped? Its unlikely, its a special type of person that stalks for 15 years. Its also a shame that you didn't feel confident to air your views under your real account.
rl3 11y ago
>Not being able to saying no just means she is weak. Or you know, since the guy started stalking her from the age of twelve, she may have been conditioned to accept that type of behavior, or otherwise failed to realize how serious it actually was until later. It's also very possible she didn't want to confront her stalker out of fear. Have you ever tried telling a crazy person they're crazy? Hint: it's usually impossible and almost always turns ugly. Good job personifying your username, though.

protomyth 11y ago

Be a guy and have a women ask you why their car isn't starting or can you help change a tire. Saying no in many parts of the world / US is unacceptable and considered rude. So, I guess male agency can be constrained in the same manner. Its amazing what guys will do not to look like an a__hole.

pg_is_a_butt 11y ago

YOU'RE A SEXIST BITCH.