12 ms·

UK government pushing ahead with surveillance powers bill

139 points by stanislavb 11y ago

godgod 11y ago
Further proof we the people are not in control of anything.
id122015 11y ago
As I've read today in The Telegraph, when a man is assaulted on the street UK police seek our help to identify the gang members who commited the crime. When travelling by Underground we are reminded constantly to report suspicious behavior. We are aware that today a handful of minority men police over the majority, as Noam Chomsky has put it. But we know that policing is a costly activity, and can observe how the animals around us distribute the cost of policing to the whole swarm. One day we will study Chomsky at history class and admit that we, all the other men, are part of the police without requiring to wear a suit. And will stop this game of minority ruling over the majority. Because its us the other men that you the Government seek help from when the actual police shows their weaknesses in solving problems.
JupiterMoon 11y ago
I've given up fighting this. I'm at a stage now where I think that things need to get worse before British people understand how dangerous these powers are.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Let's hope they won't get too much worse then.
  - anexprogrammer 11y ago
    This government has shown precious little consideration for the electorate. All our governments have a love of data and IT, despite their consistent track record of screwing up every project and not understanding it at all. It's going to continue, probably until all the Cabinet's entire search history is found to be in the database and it's pastebin'd. They're absolutely not going to stop, in my opinion, until something makes 62m people realise it was a silly idea. By which time, it is of course, too late.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    I fear that things will get a lot worse. I am of the opinion that a free society cannot survive the effects of pervasive surveillance for long. I will of course be writing to my MP before any readings of the bill in the Commons. I expect that this will not make a difference though.
- jkire 11y ago
  It would be nice if we had an effective opposition, but we don't. Not when it comes to security concerns. Corbyn's stance with trident and Stop the War means that no one, and I mean no one, can take any argument he puts forward seriously when it comes to security. The result? The government can get away with anything that has a vaguely plausible sounding justification. The only thing that can stop them now is the media, but it really is not their job to be the opposition.
  - anexprogrammer 11y ago
    Apart from the Guardian I think all the media is wanting them to go faster. Because terrorism. What we need is a data disaster. What's the phone number for Anonymous? :)
  - morsch 11y ago
    Cutting down on nuclear armament, which I presume is what you are calling out Corbyn for, is hardly something that no one could reasonably consider. You realize there are entire countries without nuclear weapons, right?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      There's little point for the UK to have a US-controlled nuclear weapons system on its soil, and to pay for the privilege. The US has nukes anyway.
      - robhu 11y ago
        https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-britains-nuclear-weapons/ https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-br...
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
        TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
- adaline 11y ago
  I often thought this in the past, but I found that if you stop supporting your side - the vacuum is quickly filled with the opposition. Any effort on your behalf to support your views, however little, will have a big effect.
- ajb 11y ago
  Has it occurred to you that by spreading hopelessness and despondency, you're making it more likely that we will lose?
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Yes of course. I was hoping for a few "buck your ideas up we can stop this" replies... As I said further down in the comment tree I will definitely be writing to my MP before any Commons readings of this bill. However, I really can't see how to win this one. Both of our major political parties are seemingly totally committed to erosion of civil liberties, the security services have such a vast control already and I can't see meaningful opposition surviving the tabloid newspaper treatment. Also I know intelligent people who support this bill (and similar laws) and even more people who just don't see it as a priority. I think that it will take a total change in public opinion for the creeping erosion of civil liberties to be reversed and I don't see that happening with our current media until British people have experienced a Statsi-like situation for themselves.
infodroid 11y ago
Gotta love the BBC Headline currently on the home page: "Surveillance law: Revised bill adds privacy safeguards".
- branchless 11y ago
  The BBC is state TV. They care for you on articles about salt intake or the lack of bees. State business they would sell you out in a flash.
  - orf 11y ago
    Its actually completely seperate from the state, and for good reason. That being said it's biased on Some topics, this included.
    - branchless 11y ago
      It's not separate from the state. When push comes to shove the establishment tell the BBC what to do. We've seen this in the 2011 riots. We've seen this in the 2008 banking crisis and subsequent massive wealth transfers. Now we see it with state surveillance. The BBC is on your side until it matters. I don't care what their charter says, I look at what they do. The UK is preparing. As living standards continue to fall state surveillance will become more and more necessary to try and suppress alternate views. How long before posting a blog on the UK's intractable deficit and massive private debt is "financial terrorism"?
      - asuffield 11y ago
        The main flaw in your argument is that living standards are better than at any time in history before now.
        nitrogen 11y ago
        Insert the word "perceived" into that sentence and none of that matters. Also, ignoring for the sake of argument whether this is actually true, there are numerous possible caveats: - Living standards could be better now, but also more fragile than at any time in history. - Average living standards could be high, but with growing extremes and a shrinking middle. - Living standards in a historical perspective are 100% irrelevant to someone who is currently living half the lifestyle they did five years ago because their industry dried up and they have to serve food for a living. - etc.
ianopolous 11y ago
They're endurance predators, they just don't give up.
- branchless 11y ago
  I said it the other day. The fall of the UK would be highly beneficial for the working man. They are at the heart of surveillance and at the heart of money laundering / tax avoidance globally. They are the oldest landlords. Oh no, not me I never lost control You're face to face With The Man Who Sold The World
tanv_nadkarni 11y ago
One of the dubious Indian journalist (who is above 70 years old) was caught (and on camera) soliciting sex for a minor and luring her into meeting him. It made a big news and I almost assumed the guy would be done for good. Turn out not only the guy got out quietly but continues to write in newspapers preaching morality to others. I tried a lot of figure out how he might have escaped the law but I cant. I am giving this example only to show that when the British government cant enforce existing laws using available evidence, you cant expect them to dig up anything new with more powers. It is something Mahatma Gandhi pointed out years ago about the British. In one of this Satyagrahas related to Champaran farmers, Gandhiji's modest and only demand was that the British must only acknowledge that there is a problem which needs to be solved. According to Gandhiji's colonial power's unwillingness to even show empathy to people means they are essentially uninterested in the helping people with their problems. Law of Karma I guess. [1] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/other-news/Indian-origin-journalist-Hasan-Suroor-arrested-in-UK-on-paedophilia-charges/articleshow/49756604.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/other-news/Indian-ori... [2] http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/death-of-liberalism-in-bollywood/194030.html http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/death-of-liberalism...
- vidarh 11y ago
  > Turn out not only the guy got out quietly but continues to write in newspapers preaching morality to others. I tried a lot of figure out how he might have escaped the law but I cant. So you are assuming that he "escaped the law" without having found any evidence. The articles I've found indicates that a bail amount was set. He probably met it, pending trial. Unless you've seen him out and about outside of the UK, you have no basis for assuming he escaped anything. It's also worth pointing out that he was arrested following a sting by a vigilante group. There's going to be all kinds of issues with chain of custody of the evidence etc. that makes this almost entirely unlike a case handled by police from the start.
  - tanv_nadkarni 11y ago
    Whatever might be the reason the guy is not in jail. I think that is where the government has failed.
sandworm101 11y ago
Part of me wants to say 'bring it on'. I once said to a copyright lobbyist that I think applies here: "Don't try to out-internet kids". Allowing police to hack into computers will start a war between law abiding citizens and police hackers. The cops cannot win that fight. Everyone will mobilize against them. Their malware will be studied and published across the planet. And it will certainly help push people away from proprietary systems in favour of f/oss.
- easytiger 11y ago
  > The cops cannot win that fight. No because the sourcing will be outsourced to private companies.
Guruleads 11y ago
We are bank of hackers based in the US,UK,Australia and Canada. We offer services such as school grades chande, DDOS hack, emails, facebook, whatsapp hacks, password retrieval, sim clone, clearing of criminal records, refund, spy on cheating spouse, credit, bank transfer, database hack and all forms of hacking. Contact us today via email: demon_teco@outlook.com or text 9378775461
junto 11y ago
Back in 2000, the UK government introduced the widely criticized "Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000". It was even heavily criticized in the House of Lords, but still made it through to Royal Assent on the 28th July 2000. The bill started in February of the same year and was pushed through as fast as possible in order to "prevent internet crime and paedophilia". The core criticisms [1] surrounded the inclusion of the requirement for suspects to give up encryption keys or face prison (reverse burden of proof), and the expansion of the act to allow almost any government body to snoop secretly on the public. It was dubbed the "Snooper's Charter" [2], and here we are 16 years later and that bill is now law and abused every day by councils across the UK to snoop on people "putting their rubbish bins out on the wrong day" [3]. Seriously, I'm not making this shit up. Make no mistake; There is little we can do within the current political framework, in order to prevent this bill from passing into law, albeit with minor amendments and other hidden little nasties that we discover later were snuck in on the quiet. The government is playing the long game, against a public that doesn't even realise they are even supposed to be playing the game. Meanwhile the public are more concerned that "I'm a Celebrity get me out of here" is about to start, and the tax on petrol and beer to due to rise in the next budget. "The only way to win the game is not to play", sadly doesn't apply to this game. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/oct/24/qanda http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/oct/24/qanda [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jan/14/regulation-investigatory-powers-act http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-councils-use-anti-terror-laws-to-spy-on-bin-crimes.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-counc...
- roddux 11y ago
  RIPA is the most concerning law for me, especially seeing as it comes with a built-in gag order.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  >> Meanwhile the public are more concerned that "I'm a Celebrity get me out of here" is about to start, and the tax on petrol and beer to due to rise in the next budget. First of all, "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here" doesn't start until autumn time. In all seriousness the lack of concern by the general public surprises me especially after the high profile coverage of Edward Snowden. I spoke to someone training as a lawyer (specifically in human rights) and they'd never heard of Snowden or mass surveillance - and didn't seem to care either when I explained. That was pretty worrying. On the other hand the decline of privacy rights has concerned me so much that I plan to retrain in Law (been in technology for about 9 years since I left high school) with the sole aim of working to maintain our privacy rights. So although not everyone cares right now (they probably will when it's too late) I'm sure there are enough people who do who are willing to do what they can to try fix this.
gerdydog 11y ago
Its nothing they are not already doing! They are just looking for a way to use the methods more openly and then they can disclose evidence that usually stays hidden ("An anonymous tip brought him to our attention") in criminal trials and prosecutions.

139 points by stanislavb 11y ago

Further proof we the people are not in control of anything.

id122015 11y ago

As I've read today in The Telegraph, when a man is assaulted on the street UK police seek our help to identify the gang members who commited the crime. When travelling by Underground we are reminded constantly to report suspicious behavior. We are aware that today a handful of minority men police over the majority, as Noam Chomsky has put it. But we know that policing is a costly activity, and can observe how the animals around us distribute the cost of policing to the whole swarm. One day we will study Chomsky at history class and admit that we, all the other men, are part of the police without requiring to wear a suit. And will stop this game of minority ruling over the majority. Because its us the other men that you the Government seek help from when the actual police shows their weaknesses in solving problems.

JupiterMoon 11y ago

I've given up fighting this. I'm at a stage now where I think that things need to get worse before British people understand how dangerous these powers are.

jacquesm 11y ago
Let's hope they won't get too much worse then.
- anexprogrammer 11y ago
  This government has shown precious little consideration for the electorate. All our governments have a love of data and IT, despite their consistent track record of screwing up every project and not understanding it at all. It's going to continue, probably until all the Cabinet's entire search history is found to be in the database and it's pastebin'd. They're absolutely not going to stop, in my opinion, until something makes 62m people realise it was a silly idea. By which time, it is of course, too late.
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  I fear that things will get a lot worse. I am of the opinion that a free society cannot survive the effects of pervasive surveillance for long. I will of course be writing to my MP before any readings of the bill in the Commons. I expect that this will not make a difference though.
jkire 11y ago
It would be nice if we had an effective opposition, but we don't. Not when it comes to security concerns. Corbyn's stance with trident and Stop the War means that no one, and I mean no one, can take any argument he puts forward seriously when it comes to security. The result? The government can get away with anything that has a vaguely plausible sounding justification. The only thing that can stop them now is the media, but it really is not their job to be the opposition.
- anexprogrammer 11y ago
  Apart from the Guardian I think all the media is wanting them to go faster. Because terrorism. What we need is a data disaster. What's the phone number for Anonymous? :)
- morsch 11y ago
  Cutting down on nuclear armament, which I presume is what you are calling out Corbyn for, is hardly something that no one could reasonably consider. You realize there are entire countries without nuclear weapons, right?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    There's little point for the UK to have a US-controlled nuclear weapons system on its soil, and to pay for the privilege. The US has nukes anyway.
    - robhu 11y ago
      https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-britains-nuclear-weapons/ https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-america-doesnt-control-br...
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
adaline 11y ago
I often thought this in the past, but I found that if you stop supporting your side - the vacuum is quickly filled with the opposition. Any effort on your behalf to support your views, however little, will have a big effect.
ajb 11y ago
Has it occurred to you that by spreading hopelessness and despondency, you're making it more likely that we will lose?
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  Yes of course. I was hoping for a few "buck your ideas up we can stop this" replies... As I said further down in the comment tree I will definitely be writing to my MP before any Commons readings of this bill. However, I really can't see how to win this one. Both of our major political parties are seemingly totally committed to erosion of civil liberties, the security services have such a vast control already and I can't see meaningful opposition surviving the tabloid newspaper treatment. Also I know intelligent people who support this bill (and similar laws) and even more people who just don't see it as a priority. I think that it will take a total change in public opinion for the creeping erosion of civil liberties to be reversed and I don't see that happening with our current media until British people have experienced a Statsi-like situation for themselves.

infodroid 11y ago

Gotta love the BBC Headline currently on the home page: "Surveillance law: Revised bill adds privacy safeguards".

branchless 11y ago
The BBC is state TV. They care for you on articles about salt intake or the lack of bees. State business they would sell you out in a flash.
- orf 11y ago
  Its actually completely seperate from the state, and for good reason. That being said it's biased on Some topics, this included.
  - branchless 11y ago
    It's not separate from the state. When push comes to shove the establishment tell the BBC what to do. We've seen this in the 2011 riots. We've seen this in the 2008 banking crisis and subsequent massive wealth transfers. Now we see it with state surveillance. The BBC is on your side until it matters. I don't care what their charter says, I look at what they do. The UK is preparing. As living standards continue to fall state surveillance will become more and more necessary to try and suppress alternate views. How long before posting a blog on the UK's intractable deficit and massive private debt is "financial terrorism"?
    - asuffield 11y ago
      The main flaw in your argument is that living standards are better than at any time in history before now.
      - nitrogen 11y ago
        Insert the word "perceived" into that sentence and none of that matters. Also, ignoring for the sake of argument whether this is actually true, there are numerous possible caveats: - Living standards could be better now, but also more fragile than at any time in history. - Average living standards could be high, but with growing extremes and a shrinking middle. - Living standards in a historical perspective are 100% irrelevant to someone who is currently living half the lifestyle they did five years ago because their industry dried up and they have to serve food for a living. - etc.

ianopolous 11y ago

They're endurance predators, they just don't give up.

branchless 11y ago
I said it the other day. The fall of the UK would be highly beneficial for the working man. They are at the heart of surveillance and at the heart of money laundering / tax avoidance globally. They are the oldest landlords. Oh no, not me I never lost control You're face to face With The Man Who Sold The World

tanv_nadkarni 11y ago

One of the dubious Indian journalist (who is above 70 years old) was caught (and on camera) soliciting sex for a minor and luring her into meeting him. It made a big news and I almost assumed the guy would be done for good. Turn out not only the guy got out quietly but continues to write in newspapers preaching morality to others. I tried a lot of figure out how he might have escaped the law but I cant. I am giving this example only to show that when the British government cant enforce existing laws using available evidence, you cant expect them to dig up anything new with more powers. It is something Mahatma Gandhi pointed out years ago about the British. In one of this Satyagrahas related to Champaran farmers, Gandhiji's modest and only demand was that the British must only acknowledge that there is a problem which needs to be solved. According to Gandhiji's colonial power's unwillingness to even show empathy to people means they are essentially uninterested in the helping people with their problems. Law of Karma I guess. [1] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/other-news/Indian-origin-journalist-Hasan-Suroor-arrested-in-UK-on-paedophilia-charges/articleshow/49756604.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/other-news/Indian-ori... [2] http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/death-of-liberalism-in-bollywood/194030.html http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/death-of-liberalism...

vidarh 11y ago
> Turn out not only the guy got out quietly but continues to write in newspapers preaching morality to others. I tried a lot of figure out how he might have escaped the law but I cant. So you are assuming that he "escaped the law" without having found any evidence. The articles I've found indicates that a bail amount was set. He probably met it, pending trial. Unless you've seen him out and about outside of the UK, you have no basis for assuming he escaped anything. It's also worth pointing out that he was arrested following a sting by a vigilante group. There's going to be all kinds of issues with chain of custody of the evidence etc. that makes this almost entirely unlike a case handled by police from the start.
- tanv_nadkarni 11y ago
  Whatever might be the reason the guy is not in jail. I think that is where the government has failed.

sandworm101 11y ago

Part of me wants to say 'bring it on'. I once said to a copyright lobbyist that I think applies here: "Don't try to out-internet kids". Allowing police to hack into computers will start a war between law abiding citizens and police hackers. The cops cannot win that fight. Everyone will mobilize against them. Their malware will be studied and published across the planet. And it will certainly help push people away from proprietary systems in favour of f/oss.

easytiger 11y ago
> The cops cannot win that fight. No because the sourcing will be outsourced to private companies.

Guruleads 11y ago

We are bank of hackers based in the US,UK,Australia and Canada. We offer services such as school grades chande, DDOS hack, emails, facebook, whatsapp hacks, password retrieval, sim clone, clearing of criminal records, refund, spy on cheating spouse, credit, bank transfer, database hack and all forms of hacking. Contact us today via email: demon_teco@outlook.com or text 9378775461

junto 11y ago

Back in 2000, the UK government introduced the widely criticized "Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000". It was even heavily criticized in the House of Lords, but still made it through to Royal Assent on the 28th July 2000. The bill started in February of the same year and was pushed through as fast as possible in order to "prevent internet crime and paedophilia". The core criticisms [1] surrounded the inclusion of the requirement for suspects to give up encryption keys or face prison (reverse burden of proof), and the expansion of the act to allow almost any government body to snoop secretly on the public. It was dubbed the "Snooper's Charter" [2], and here we are 16 years later and that bill is now law and abused every day by councils across the UK to snoop on people "putting their rubbish bins out on the wrong day" [3]. Seriously, I'm not making this shit up. Make no mistake; There is little we can do within the current political framework, in order to prevent this bill from passing into law, albeit with minor amendments and other hidden little nasties that we discover later were snuck in on the quiet. The government is playing the long game, against a public that doesn't even realise they are even supposed to be playing the game. Meanwhile the public are more concerned that "I'm a Celebrity get me out of here" is about to start, and the tax on petrol and beer to due to rise in the next budget. "The only way to win the game is not to play", sadly doesn't apply to this game. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/oct/24/qanda http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/oct/24/qanda [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jan/14/regulation-investigatory-powers-act http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009... [3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-councils-use-anti-terror-laws-to-spy-on-bin-crimes.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3333366/Half-of-counc...

roddux 11y ago
RIPA is the most concerning law for me, especially seeing as it comes with a built-in gag order.
k-mcgrady 11y ago
>> Meanwhile the public are more concerned that "I'm a Celebrity get me out of here" is about to start, and the tax on petrol and beer to due to rise in the next budget. First of all, "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here" doesn't start until autumn time. In all seriousness the lack of concern by the general public surprises me especially after the high profile coverage of Edward Snowden. I spoke to someone training as a lawyer (specifically in human rights) and they'd never heard of Snowden or mass surveillance - and didn't seem to care either when I explained. That was pretty worrying. On the other hand the decline of privacy rights has concerned me so much that I plan to retrain in Law (been in technology for about 9 years since I left high school) with the sole aim of working to maintain our privacy rights. So although not everyone cares right now (they probably will when it's too late) I'm sure there are enough people who do who are willing to do what they can to try fix this.

gerdydog 11y ago

Its nothing they are not already doing! They are just looking for a way to use the methods more openly and then they can disclose evidence that usually stays hidden ("An anonymous tip brought him to our attention") in criminal trials and prosecutions.