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From their own post: > SongFlip has been banned from Google Play several times in the past for Intellectual Property infringement. After his developer account

From their own post: > SongFlip has been banned from Google Play several times in the past for Intellectual Property infringement. After his developer account is banned, the developer keeps on creating new developer accounts to reupload this app. Below is a list of past package names this app has been uploaded under, which have since been banned: com.seven.songflip com.fungames.songflip com.unicornlabs.firetunes So really Google isn't allowing it, this person just keeps on signing up.

robhu 11y ago
Does Google not have an app approval process when a developer wants to submit an app to the store? Surely the resubmission of a banned app would be detected at that step?
- FussyZeus 11y ago
  Android dev here: There is virtually no submission review. As long as the bundle ID is correct I could upload pretty much whatever I wanted, the only things they check for are matching bundle ID's, correct version numbers, basically anything that could damage the Play store in some technical fashion. Everything else is up for the users to report, which is why the Play store is FLUSH with garbage apps. Windows Phone doesn't seem a ton better, the only ones that have any handle on crapware are Apple, and even then it isn't as good as it used to be.
  - bitmapbrother 11y ago
    iPhone user here. You must not have an iPhone or iPad. The App Store is littered with crapware.
    - FussyZeus 11y ago
      I have both. I'm not saying it's the Eden of apps (Like I said, especially recently the App Review seems very lax) but the ratio of crap to useful apps is much better in the App Store in my experience.
    - fixermark 11y ago
      It's a control / scale issue. Apple clamps harder on apps that infringe on its rules (it appears they have humans in the loop doing some active checking, if "My app got banned for ridiculous reasons" stories that hit HN periodically are to be believed). But Apple's developer base is so much larger that the amount of work needed to control against crap is proportionately higher.
    - hyperpape 11y ago
      It's true that there is crapware in the iOS app store, but this app would face at least some pain there. Since there's app review, you couldn't have the app taken down then just upload it again without waiting through the long process of app review.
rwmj 11y ago
There is surely a way to determine if one app is substantially similar to a previously banned app, eg. by fuzzy comparing the binary, or running it and comparing screenshots.
- robhu 11y ago
  Or suing developers who intentionally violate the ToS in a repeated manner like this. Make it financially far more costly to screw Google and the users over than it is currently profitable.
  - mc808 11y ago
    It sounds like the people being screwed are SoundCloud and possibly some of the musicians who use it, not Google or the millions of users downloading the app. So if someone should sue, it should probably be them.
    - frogpelt 11y ago
      If the Play Store gets the reputation for being the wild, wild west it's bad for Google's developers and thus their business.
    - sdca 11y ago
      Yes. OP is literally "soundcloud_musician" on Reddit complaining about copyright infringement that's not taking place. However forced ranking, deep linking, and previous ban evasion are all real concerns for Google's reputation as a corporate friendly gatekeeper.
- chiph 11y ago
  If you do that, you'll wipe out hundreds if not thousands of "Candy Crush" and "Bejeweled" clones.
  - bsharitt 11y ago
    This plan keeps getting better.
Symbiote 11y ago
Matching using the developer's bank details, name and/or address shouldn't be too difficult.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  Setting up new bank details, fake names and/or addresses isn't difficult either. Some people cheat wherever and whenever they can.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    Which countries, that Google allows bank deposits to, don't bother checking your identity when opening a bank account?
    - evan_ 11y ago
      Probably none but what banks share your address with whoever asks? You can open a new checking account with your bank online and get a new P.O. box and as far as Google is concerned you are a different person/company.
    - jsjohnst 11y ago
      There isn't a way for a normal company to verify the name who registered a bank account. They can verify your claim to have access to it, but not the actual name on the account.
    - spyder 11y ago
      The bank account can be on the name of a business and they can just keep creating new companies.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    Setting up a bank account under an assumed name is pretty blatantly illegal in most countries.
  - robhu 11y ago
    Google could hold the money for X days (30? 60?) and ensure they respond to complaints within that time so if a new app appears and people complain it can be taken down and the money not sent on. That would prevent the ToS breaking developers from profiting.
wahsd 11y ago
And here one of the many huge flaws of Google's lazy approach to gate-keeping it's app ecosystem is exposed. Hell, who WOULDN'T do that for $30,000 daily ad income.
- _nedR 11y ago
  Both as a user and a developer, I would prefer a lenient, lazy approach over an over-zealous over-pedantic approach.
  - wahsd 11y ago
    I find that statement weirdly irreconcilable. Can you really be a naive user and a developer worth his mettle? I get your point, but there is a huge chasm between what users think is good for them and the actual capacity they have to not harm themselves. I get that you as a "power user" are probably not interested in the restrictions and rules that the Apple ecosystem "imposes", but there is a humongous gap between you who is probably very competent and skilled at protecting yourself from all the numerous and plentiful risks that the Android system exposes you to; and the other end of the spectrum, the 99.99% of users who couldn't protect themselves even if they wanted to and wantonly download and install and follow prompts (if they read them at all) to expose themselves. I find it rather ironic and rather reckless really from the developer perspective too that you seem to totally eschew all the risk considerations that Apple takes into account, just ignoring the business decisions they make. It is unarguable that the Apple ecosystem is not astronomically more secure and safe and a better user experience than Android for 99.999% of users. You may be upset that you don't have access to low level device or OS features, but ultimately those are also largely security restrictions and in no way there to annoy you. What you should ask yourself is why the devs like you seem to be wholly unappreciative that Apple doesn't leave massive, humongous, gargantuan security and privacy vulnerabilities just gaping wide open all over their OS and devices. It's rather telling that people with your kind of mentality have no understanding for practical considerations and justifiable limitations and boundaries. Sure, I'm not a huge fan about all of Apple's decisions, but conversely, your type of mentality is the equivalent of saying that there should be no guards in prisons and bank vaults should be open to the outside 24/7 where everyone can take out money on the honor system.
luso_brazilian 11y ago
The "mysteriously" qualifier seems to be sarcasm by the part of the original submitter on reddit. He seems to be implying that, by being a former Google employee, this person is getting a pass or using inside information to skirt around the system. Quoting from the post: > Here is proof SongFlip was released by someone who used to work for Google: > His Linkedin and Google+ Profiles list prior employment by Google: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertdo https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertdo and https://plus.google.com/+RobertDo/about https://plus.google.com/+RobertDo/about > He mentions he created SongFlip here: http://www.meetup.com/The-Brooklyn-iPhone-and-iPad-Developer-Meetup/members/64827092/ http://www.meetup.com/The-Brooklyn-iPhone-and-iPad-Developer... > His Twitter shows extensive SongFlip testing: https://twitter.com/robertdo https://twitter.com/robertdo > His company "Hype Reactor, Inc.": http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HYPE-REACTOR-INC.html http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HYPE-REACTOR-INC.html > The "Hype Reactor, Inc." developer account shows SongFlip was uploaded to it before being removed: https://www.appannie.com/apps/ios/publisher/hype-reactor-inc./ https://www.appannie.com/apps/ios/publisher/hype-reactor-inc... The conclusion of his post seems to be in line with that: > My question is why is Google allowing SongFlip to break so many rules? Could it be the case that the SongFlip creator, who is a former Google employee, is using contacts within Google to prevent it from being taken down despite so many violations? We can only speculate... > By mysteriously allowing it to continue breaking rules and violate intellectual property and ignoring all reports against the app, Google has allowed it to quickly become the #16 Overall app in the USA, which means it is making over $30,000 per day in ad revenue and is as popular as Spotify (#14 Overall app).
- rtkwe 11y ago
  I think that anyone could probably do the same things that SongFlip is doing. The dev is just slipping through unnoticed because Google isn't particularly vigilant about making sure bans stick because it'd be an annoying overhead and would block some people from getting to upload that might make great apps. As for the ToS violation clause I think that's there for when they receive complaint from the 3rd party, they don't want to go through every app and figure out all the 3rd party application it's using and how then go to each of those sites and parse their ToS. Does Apple even do that in their review process? That'd be a hell of a lot of work.
ropiku 11y ago
But it's clearly not banned quick enough if he can get to #16 and have >1M downloads. I can't believe that happened in a few days. Every reupload would start from 0 users.
amyjess 11y ago
Google could still take legal action against them. Repeatedly signing up for new accounts after being banned is trespassing on private property, and I'm fairly sure Google could sue for TOS violations if they wanted.
st3v3r 11y ago
But why can't Google tell it's the same damn app that they've banned?

robhu 11y ago

Does Google not have an app approval process when a developer wants to submit an app to the store? Surely the resubmission of a banned app would be detected at that step?

FussyZeus 11y ago
Android dev here: There is virtually no submission review. As long as the bundle ID is correct I could upload pretty much whatever I wanted, the only things they check for are matching bundle ID's, correct version numbers, basically anything that could damage the Play store in some technical fashion. Everything else is up for the users to report, which is why the Play store is FLUSH with garbage apps. Windows Phone doesn't seem a ton better, the only ones that have any handle on crapware are Apple, and even then it isn't as good as it used to be.
- bitmapbrother 11y ago
  iPhone user here. You must not have an iPhone or iPad. The App Store is littered with crapware.
  - FussyZeus 11y ago
    I have both. I'm not saying it's the Eden of apps (Like I said, especially recently the App Review seems very lax) but the ratio of crap to useful apps is much better in the App Store in my experience.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    It's a control / scale issue. Apple clamps harder on apps that infringe on its rules (it appears they have humans in the loop doing some active checking, if "My app got banned for ridiculous reasons" stories that hit HN periodically are to be believed). But Apple's developer base is so much larger that the amount of work needed to control against crap is proportionately higher.
  - hyperpape 11y ago
    It's true that there is crapware in the iOS app store, but this app would face at least some pain there. Since there's app review, you couldn't have the app taken down then just upload it again without waiting through the long process of app review.

rwmj 11y ago

There is surely a way to determine if one app is substantially similar to a previously banned app, eg. by fuzzy comparing the binary, or running it and comparing screenshots.

robhu 11y ago
Or suing developers who intentionally violate the ToS in a repeated manner like this. Make it financially far more costly to screw Google and the users over than it is currently profitable.
- mc808 11y ago
  It sounds like the people being screwed are SoundCloud and possibly some of the musicians who use it, not Google or the millions of users downloading the app. So if someone should sue, it should probably be them.
  - frogpelt 11y ago
    If the Play Store gets the reputation for being the wild, wild west it's bad for Google's developers and thus their business.
  - sdca 11y ago
    Yes. OP is literally "soundcloud_musician" on Reddit complaining about copyright infringement that's not taking place. However forced ranking, deep linking, and previous ban evasion are all real concerns for Google's reputation as a corporate friendly gatekeeper.
chiph 11y ago
If you do that, you'll wipe out hundreds if not thousands of "Candy Crush" and "Bejeweled" clones.
- bsharitt 11y ago
  This plan keeps getting better.

Symbiote 11y ago

Matching using the developer's bank details, name and/or address shouldn't be too difficult.

chinathrow 11y ago
Setting up new bank details, fake names and/or addresses isn't difficult either. Some people cheat wherever and whenever they can.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  Which countries, that Google allows bank deposits to, don't bother checking your identity when opening a bank account?
  - evan_ 11y ago
    Probably none but what banks share your address with whoever asks? You can open a new checking account with your bank online and get a new P.O. box and as far as Google is concerned you are a different person/company.
  - jsjohnst 11y ago
    There isn't a way for a normal company to verify the name who registered a bank account. They can verify your claim to have access to it, but not the actual name on the account.
  - spyder 11y ago
    The bank account can be on the name of a business and they can just keep creating new companies.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  Setting up a bank account under an assumed name is pretty blatantly illegal in most countries.
- robhu 11y ago
  Google could hold the money for X days (30? 60?) and ensure they respond to complaints within that time so if a new app appears and people complain it can be taken down and the money not sent on. That would prevent the ToS breaking developers from profiting.

wahsd 11y ago

And here one of the many huge flaws of Google's lazy approach to gate-keeping it's app ecosystem is exposed. Hell, who WOULDN'T do that for $30,000 daily ad income.

_nedR 11y ago
Both as a user and a developer, I would prefer a lenient, lazy approach over an over-zealous over-pedantic approach.
- wahsd 11y ago
  I find that statement weirdly irreconcilable. Can you really be a naive user and a developer worth his mettle? I get your point, but there is a huge chasm between what users think is good for them and the actual capacity they have to not harm themselves. I get that you as a "power user" are probably not interested in the restrictions and rules that the Apple ecosystem "imposes", but there is a humongous gap between you who is probably very competent and skilled at protecting yourself from all the numerous and plentiful risks that the Android system exposes you to; and the other end of the spectrum, the 99.99% of users who couldn't protect themselves even if they wanted to and wantonly download and install and follow prompts (if they read them at all) to expose themselves. I find it rather ironic and rather reckless really from the developer perspective too that you seem to totally eschew all the risk considerations that Apple takes into account, just ignoring the business decisions they make. It is unarguable that the Apple ecosystem is not astronomically more secure and safe and a better user experience than Android for 99.999% of users. You may be upset that you don't have access to low level device or OS features, but ultimately those are also largely security restrictions and in no way there to annoy you. What you should ask yourself is why the devs like you seem to be wholly unappreciative that Apple doesn't leave massive, humongous, gargantuan security and privacy vulnerabilities just gaping wide open all over their OS and devices. It's rather telling that people with your kind of mentality have no understanding for practical considerations and justifiable limitations and boundaries. Sure, I'm not a huge fan about all of Apple's decisions, but conversely, your type of mentality is the equivalent of saying that there should be no guards in prisons and bank vaults should be open to the outside 24/7 where everyone can take out money on the honor system.

luso_brazilian 11y ago

The "mysteriously" qualifier seems to be sarcasm by the part of the original submitter on reddit. He seems to be implying that, by being a former Google employee, this person is getting a pass or using inside information to skirt around the system. Quoting from the post: > Here is proof SongFlip was released by someone who used to work for Google: > His Linkedin and Google+ Profiles list prior employment by Google: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertdo https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertdo and https://plus.google.com/+RobertDo/about https://plus.google.com/+RobertDo/about > He mentions he created SongFlip here: http://www.meetup.com/The-Brooklyn-iPhone-and-iPad-Developer-Meetup/members/64827092/ http://www.meetup.com/The-Brooklyn-iPhone-and-iPad-Developer... > His Twitter shows extensive SongFlip testing: https://twitter.com/robertdo https://twitter.com/robertdo > His company "Hype Reactor, Inc.": http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HYPE-REACTOR-INC.html http://www.bizapedia.com/ca/HYPE-REACTOR-INC.html > The "Hype Reactor, Inc." developer account shows SongFlip was uploaded to it before being removed: https://www.appannie.com/apps/ios/publisher/hype-reactor-inc./ https://www.appannie.com/apps/ios/publisher/hype-reactor-inc... The conclusion of his post seems to be in line with that: > My question is why is Google allowing SongFlip to break so many rules? Could it be the case that the SongFlip creator, who is a former Google employee, is using contacts within Google to prevent it from being taken down despite so many violations? We can only speculate... > By mysteriously allowing it to continue breaking rules and violate intellectual property and ignoring all reports against the app, Google has allowed it to quickly become the #16 Overall app in the USA, which means it is making over $30,000 per day in ad revenue and is as popular as Spotify (#14 Overall app).

rtkwe 11y ago
I think that anyone could probably do the same things that SongFlip is doing. The dev is just slipping through unnoticed because Google isn't particularly vigilant about making sure bans stick because it'd be an annoying overhead and would block some people from getting to upload that might make great apps. As for the ToS violation clause I think that's there for when they receive complaint from the 3rd party, they don't want to go through every app and figure out all the 3rd party application it's using and how then go to each of those sites and parse their ToS. Does Apple even do that in their review process? That'd be a hell of a lot of work.

ropiku 11y ago

But it's clearly not banned quick enough if he can get to #16 and have >1M downloads. I can't believe that happened in a few days. Every reupload would start from 0 users.

amyjess 11y ago

Google could still take legal action against them. Repeatedly signing up for new accounts after being banned is trespassing on private property, and I'm fairly sure Google could sue for TOS violations if they wanted.

st3v3r 11y ago

But why can't Google tell it's the same damn app that they've banned?