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In fact, I would argue that Ghost in the Shell's entire franchise remains the most intriguing and exciting science fiction media about networked technology. If
by alexleavitt 11y ago
In fact, I would argue that Ghost in the Shell's entire franchise remains the most intriguing and exciting science fiction media about networked technology.
If you have never seen the 2-season TV series (and 3 additional films), "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alone_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Stand_Alon...), it is by far the best contemporary outlook on near-future internet technology still. Black Mirror is up there, but I think that Ghost in the Shell: SAC presents this cultural criticism in a much stronger (ie., less unhappy) tone.
- Tobold 11y agoYes! I love SAC! The soundtrack is sooooo gooood! Don't forget about the prequel/reboot Ghost in the Shell: Arise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell:_Arise)
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- corysama 11y agoI saw a good talk by someone who worked on the TV series. He mentioned that the writers were big fans of American cop dramas. They wanted to make a cop drama where the cops happen to be cyborgs. Not a sci-fi that happened to feature cops. Anyway, much agreed. I think GitS:SAC is a much better predictive commentary than Black Mirror (of which I am also a fan). IHMO, it predicted Anonymous much better than I think most techies understand Anonymous today.
- igrekel 11y agoInteresting, I used to think of the comparison between Anonymous and the "knights" in Serial Experiment Lain but now that you mention it, I now remember parts of it but feel I need to rewatch standalone complex.
- corysama 11y agoLain's "Knights" is closer to what Anonymous is portrayed to be. What SAC covers is closer to what Anonymous is.
- nfbush 11y agoTenuous, Anonymous is just a mask to get yourself media attention where Knights had organisation and skill. The only similarity I see is that people who associate with both groups use technology in attempt for social change.
- Jd 11y agoAnyone know if the "Knights" use lambda calculus? If so I don't think they are that similar to Anon. Knights seem more like a hacker elite where as Anon is more like a flash mob.
- pdkl95 11y agoLain explicitly references the Knights of the Lambda Calculus. https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus https://lain.wiki/wiki/Knights_of_the_Eastern_Calculus
- clevernickname 11y agoI think what corysama is getting at is that the "mantle of edgy script kiddies" Anonymous is very different from the "human flesh search engine" Anonymous.
- neltnerb 11y agoI'd never thought about that connection, but I think the specific comparison is to the first series' "Laughing Man". http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Laughing_Man http://ghostintheshell.wikia.com/wiki/Laughing_Man "'The Laughing Man' became something of a pop culture obsession for a time, much to the chagrin of the actual Laughing Man—the irony being that since everybody used his icon and name for their own purposes, the original meaning of his actions, an artful forced confession of the truth through fear in the public eye, became 'phony' itself. The effort to stand for and demand the truth was also lost forever." That's so similar to how I at least understand Anonymous to exist that it's sends some chills up my spine. The things done in the name of Anonymous are all practically verbatim "Stand Alone Complex" type scenarios where there's not really a leader driving anything, but the interplay of "The Media", individual goals and interests, and a pseudonym to take credit all work towards the creation of a self-sustaining identity utterly independent to the original inspiration.
- melloclello 11y agoI always thought SAC was a little like Law and Order: SVU but with cyborgs
- cvwright 11y agoThat's great! I always thought of SAC as "cyberpunk Law and Order". It's fun to hear that that was actually the intention.
- kbenson 11y agoThat makes a lot of sense, and it probably helped quite a bit in figuring out the series. The core of a cop's job and the crimes committed will remain essentially unchanged as time progresses, barring some upheaval in the social structure, but the method of the crime and the tools at their disposal will change. By leaving one thing the same and focusing on the rest, that grounds them in a way that makes it easy to immediately relate while also allowing them to explore interesting facets of a possible future.
- 0max 11y ago>it predicted Anonymous much better than I think most techies understand Anonymous today. Simulacra is an ouroboros
- peter_l_downs 11y agoDo you have any other recommendations along the same vein? Literature, tv, mobies - I'm interested in absorbing more "near future" sci fi, particularly those that focus on identity issues. I had a lot of fun reading Stross's Accelerando and Vinge's Deepness series.
- harshreality 11y agoVinge's _Rainbows End_ (note that's the correct punctuation) is excellent and much more relevant to near-future than his Deepness series.
- peter_l_downs 11y agoAwesome, thank you! Yeah, the Deepness series isn't near future really, but it's one of my favorites and ends up being referenced all the time on HN.
- conceit 11y agoI don't see punctuation, only decoration
- solipsism 11y agoVinge's Deepness series certainly isn't "near future" science fiction, by your definition, is it? Anyway, give Diaspora by Greg Egan a shot. I'm not familiar with a more visionary story that challenges the most fundamental aspects of identity in so many ways. It's definitely not "near future" either, though.
- Erikun 11y agoEgan's Permutation City is near future though, and pretty amazing that it was written in 1994 considering the topics.
- SolaceQuantum 11y agoThe Three-Body Problem by Liu Cixin is an excellent "near future" sci-fi that focuses on humanity's context and individual humans identifying with humanity. A good translation is available by Ken Liu.
- samstave 11y agoI've been all over cyberpunk culture forever, but I'd like you're personal viewing order, please provide.
- Tobold 11y agoNot alexleavitt, but I'd go with this viewing order (for the whole franchise): * Ghost in the Shell: Arise - Alternative Architecture * Ghost in the Shell: The New Movie [sic] * Ghost in the Shell * Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig * Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex - Solid State Society Not all of them are strictly speaking in the same universe, but afair this gives the most chronological feeling results ;)
- samstave 11y agocraznappian: not available on netflix... I know all the many venues to grab these - any preferred method you'd recommend?
- Tobold 11y agoIf you know where to get them, you know as much as I do! The only "official" way seem to be the BDs.
- rashkov 11y agoHulu has a few of these
- gknoy 11y agoArise (parts 1, 2, and 3) are on Netflix. I had to use Wikipedia to tell which order they were in, until I read the descriptions more closely. This is a prequel, of how the characters came together. Stand Alone Complex is on DVD. I like it a LOT more than the movies, as it really portrays more characters as 3-dimensional than just the Major and her partner, Bateau. I don't know if it's on Amazon Video, but there's a decent chance of it.
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- jerf 11y agoI also still think GitS is one of the best hard-core sci-fi things ever put to video, but I've generally considered the (first) film to be the weakest bit. I still like it, in much the same way I actually like Star Trek: The Motion Picture, but I think people generally cut it a lot of slack if it's one of the only Anime things they've ever seen for being "weird" and "Japanese" and "artistic", when in fact I think it's generally just sort of klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. This particularly comes out when you compare it to the TV series and the subsequent films, which are none of those things. Even when you might argue the film is trying to make a point, the TV series makes it much better. It also has contemplative moments and character pieces and shots that simply show city life and all of the things the movie has, but they are better integrated and paced much better. YMMV of course. (There was a time when "the anime canon" was Ghost in the Shell (the movie) and Akira; there is still some residual Thou Shalt Not Criticize attitude about for those two, but not much anymore, I think. GitS does fare rather better 20 years on than Akira, which I believe modern consensus is that it is just one big mess, which I thought even when I saw it in 2001 or so. A landmark, yes, but still a mess.) Highly, highly recommend the TV series. I'd suggest starting there (they are technically different continuities that just happen to have similar characters, so you will miss no story), and circling back around to the movie if you still want more.
- Retric 11y agoGitS was very straightforward and understandable while introducing lot's of new concepts to many people. That's harder than you might think. IMO, it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things. PS: Even 2001 was late as it was released in 1995 when only around 40 million people world wide had been on the internet. http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/ http://royal.pingdom.com/2011/03/31/internet-1995/
- jerf 11y ago"it suffers from the Seinfeld effect where you can't watch it in context, because you have seen so many derivative things." Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. By no means do I consider myself an "otaku", but when I started counting up the things I've seen I got to over a couple dozen each of television series and movies before I stopped counting. That's nothing in some circles, but it's enough that I'm well over the "frisson" of watching something in a foreign language or with subtitles, and I can separate out that element from the underlying movie. And as it happens I rewatched it again last year, and I'd still say it's klunky, slow, and weirdly paced. I don't think those criticisms are likely caused by the Seinfeld effect. The story of the movie is still quite good, and the story is why I'm serious about swinging back around to it if you want more because it is worth it, but if I'm going to recommend something to somebody for their first time out I'd still much more highly recommend the TV series.
- ThomPete 11y agoAgree. It's the "movie" thats closest to a phi-sci-fi movie. It's philosophical without being lecture. Beautifully weaves thoughts about networked society into an action packed and aesthetically pleasing bombardment of the senses.
- dclowd9901 11y agoBeat me to it. The SAC series is heady, intriguing, creative, imaginative, political and amazingly well written. I know anime has some connotations, but really if you like Philip K Dick style sci fi intrigue, it's a worthy watch.
- digi_owl 11y agoGITS has a long story. It started as a Manga, whos author was a big fan of western philosophy (the ghost concept is supposedly lifted from Hegel's geist). Thing is that he was barely involved in the making of original movie, but heavily so with the TV series.
- rorykoehler 11y agoI only recently watched Ghost in the Shell for the first time. I have no idea how I missed it all these years. I also had no idea about the follow ons you posted. Excited to watch them now. On another note, Black Mirror is great but it doesn't even exist in the same realm as Ghost in the Shell. In 1989 we had a much less developed idea of the consequences of future technologies. The ideas presented in the original Ghost in the Shell are basically just rehashed in Black Mirror. I remember how mind blowing I found the Matrix when I first saw it (I would say it's probably the only futurist movie that changed my outlook on the world) however after watching the original Ghost in the Shell I realised that it was just a reinterpretation.
- jcoffland 11y agoOn that note, I found the Animatrix even better than the Matrix movies. It's anime more along the lines of GitS.
- digi_owl 11y agoI wonder if by being animated rather than actors and FX, it slips past the whole "uncanny valley" effect. Meaning that our subconscious stops nitpicking, and our conscious can therefore fully engage with the message.
- colordrops 11y agoThe uncanny valley was intentional in the Matrix films.
- chaostheory 11y agoYeah the TV series for Ghost in the Shell is way better than all the movies. You just can't fit the entire manga in 2 hours.
- logicrook 11y agoAlthough there are major differences between the movie and SAC. The two movies are strongly influenced by Mamoru Oshii's ideas, to the point of contradicting Shirow's point of view on certain subjects. SAC is much closer to the author's intent, but can feel at time like a clumsy homage to the source material. If you haven't, read them, as well as the hit-and-miss sequel Man-machine interface, and Appleseed (which unfortunately has been tarnished by terrible adaptations).
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- Kiro 11y agoShould I watch the films or the series first?
- anc84 11y agoJust go with their release dates.
- Ftuuky 11y agoThe films then the series.
- ZenoArrow 11y agoI'd say it was fine to skip the second film (Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence), I remember it being a bit lacklustre in terms of the story and pacing. The first film is definitely worth a watch though.
- Ftuuky 11y agoGitS2 is actually my favorite after the original film. Then the manga and only after the SAC and Arise.
- underbluewaters 11y agoI really enjoyed the second film when I first saw it. The scene with Batou invading the ship with augmented-reality map support was amazing. I watched it recently though, and it just didn't really hold up. I'm not quite sure what it was. Maybe the ideas just weren't as innovative anymore? I think the first film stands up a lot better.
- krylon 11y agoSAC completely blew my mind, in a way. At the time, animation - from my perspective - was for kids, and seeing somebody use that medium to tell an elaborate and intelligent story was quite overwhelming initially.