5 ms·

The money quote is a few paragraphs in. "Denmark has long led the continent in its shift to the right—and in its growing domestic consensus that large-scale Mu

The money quote is a few paragraphs in. "Denmark has long led the continent in its shift to the right—and in its growing domestic consensus that large-scale Muslim immigration is incompatible with European social democracy." Europeans have generally experienced good cultural assimilation from immigrant populations, although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception, leading to some troubling parallels right now. American politics and journalism make those parallels uncommonly mentioned in national media, but we should be considering them as societies. At the same time, lack of assimilation to these previously well functioning societies is troubling. The lack of liberalism (in a formal sense, not an American political sense) is here on HN, too; debate on the story about whether religiously conservative men could/should be able to move women away from their assigned seats on planes was shockingly vigorous to me. This seems like a battle that countries like France and America helped win decades ago. I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) that in part Northern European countries "worked" because of their social homogeneity, and their success at cultural assimilation of immigrant populations. However true that is or was, that homogeneity is seen as at risk right now. Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be. And a small town can be nice. But, it can be nasty if you don't fit in. And a small town with a massive population influx can lose its niceness quickly. At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to. Right now liberal and right-wing (in the European sense) politics are ending up in bed together over immigrants, liberals on the behavior front, and right-wing on the culture front. Things seem likely to get more heated and violent before they cool down.

mc32 11y ago
Like Japan, or Bhutan, countries have the right to manage migration however they wish. I'm also grateful there are countries which are more diverse like Singapore and India and the US. People like to repeat the trope that diversity is strength that it's invigorating. But in that, the only diversity that matters is the diversity in thought, not necessarily in culture. There are as many successful nations which are diverse as there are those which are homogenous and there are as many failed nations which are diverse as there are homogenous. However, if you look at a Northern Ireland, Algeria or Iraq or India, when trouble hits, it stirs up animosity among the groups who play the blame game. In times of trouble or uncertainty stability is likely more likely retained the more homogenous the group as everyone is in the same boat and there is no one to scapegoat but the self. From that perspective I can understand Japan, Denmark or Bhutan. That said, some cultures integrate into the host culture more readily and successfully --Indochinese (Vietnamese) in France, or Chinese in France, for example, or Jews in Latin America, Indians in the US, Chinese in the Malay peninsula, than some others who retain or want to retain their mother culture and thus find a clash and harbor mixed feelings and alienation.
danieldk 11y ago
I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) FYI: Turkey is not in the EU.
- vessenes 11y ago
  Thank you! https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ for good. I tried to edit my comment, but it's been there too long.
useerup 11y ago
> although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get what you mean by "conservative Jewish populations are an exception" to good cultural assimilation. I grew up unaware of the jewish population, I studied and later worked with several jews, unaware that they were in fact jewish, My wife had several jewish friends from college. Except for the fact that some of them chose to live "more" jewish than others - and generally take Fridays off - I have never ever noticed them to stand out in any way. In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. They seem to have been assimilated to the point where it is actually a threat to the (little) cultural diversity that Denmark has. It is the same way in the other Scandinavian countries. Your comment is very, very strange. > I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) Turkey has not entered the EU. In fact, due to concerns about democracy and human rights, they have not even been promised that they can start negotiations. > Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be. One very important mechanism to make the Danish society work, is trust. We are generous with welfare. We have paid education through college/university or equivalent. In fact, in addition to free tuition, we will pay you to take an education. Danish "SU" ("Education Support") amounts to DKK5941 /month - apx $10464/year. The backside of the trust is, that one of the least socially acceptable things you can do is to cheat the generous system. > At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to It seems to me, that every country in the world - Denmark included - should accept their fair share of refugees. Smaller populations with different cultures are generally not a problem. Only when populations with very different culture and religious views grows faster than their culture as well as the host country culture can adapt to eachother do problems arise.
- schoen 11y ago
  > In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to. Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact between the sexes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social interactions with non-Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael See generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and culturally separate from secular society.
vessenes 11y ago
DOH, Turkey is not in the EU, thank you. And doesn't qualify for special immigration rights into Schengen territories, my mistake.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Htsthbjig 11y ago
America's fragmented culture? I suppose you refer to South America, because the North is not BY ANY MEANS fragmented. You can go anywhere in the US, from West Coast to East Coast and you see: Everybody speaking the same language. Some small places will also speak Spanish and French, but everybody speaks English. Everybody having the same religion -puritan culture. There is a significant amount of people believing in creationism as something Christian, when in fact Catholic or other views of Christianity had not accepted that for centuries. Everybody sharing their own political believes. All believing the same mythology(the founding fathers like sacred creatures, the Constitution and so on). Everybody watching the same TV channels, going to the same stores(Wallmark...) They play the same sports. They go to a basketball play and first thing they do is put their hands over the heart and sing the same hymn. Now compare that to Europe when you cross the channel from France to England , and you have different language, different cultures, people driving on the other side, values change, religion change, even weather is completely different. Denmark is totally different to Holland, to France, to Switzerland, to Poland, to Italy, to Spain to Greece...
- adventured 11y ago
  I take it you've never actually traveled across the US. Hispanic culture in Los Angeles is noticeably different from white culture in Boston, which is noticeably different from black culture in New Orleans. First generation Filipino culture in Seattle is noticeably different from second generation Cuban culture in Miami. What does South Dakota culture have in common with Little Armenia in LA? Only the minimum things that all people share, otherwise they're very different. Is most of rural Texas similar to the cities of New York or San Francisco? Not even remotely close. America is in fact wildly diverse, from food to media to customs.

mc32 11y ago

Like Japan, or Bhutan, countries have the right to manage migration however they wish. I'm also grateful there are countries which are more diverse like Singapore and India and the US. People like to repeat the trope that diversity is strength that it's invigorating. But in that, the only diversity that matters is the diversity in thought, not necessarily in culture. There are as many successful nations which are diverse as there are those which are homogenous and there are as many failed nations which are diverse as there are homogenous. However, if you look at a Northern Ireland, Algeria or Iraq or India, when trouble hits, it stirs up animosity among the groups who play the blame game. In times of trouble or uncertainty stability is likely more likely retained the more homogenous the group as everyone is in the same boat and there is no one to scapegoat but the self. From that perspective I can understand Japan, Denmark or Bhutan. That said, some cultures integrate into the host culture more readily and successfully --Indochinese (Vietnamese) in France, or Chinese in France, for example, or Jews in Latin America, Indians in the US, Chinese in the Malay peninsula, than some others who retain or want to retain their mother culture and thus find a clash and harbor mixed feelings and alienation.

danieldk 11y ago

I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) FYI: Turkey is not in the EU.

vessenes 11y ago
Thank you! https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ for good. I tried to edit my comment, but it's been there too long.

useerup 11y ago

> although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get what you mean by "conservative Jewish populations are an exception" to good cultural assimilation. I grew up unaware of the jewish population, I studied and later worked with several jews, unaware that they were in fact jewish, My wife had several jewish friends from college. Except for the fact that some of them chose to live "more" jewish than others - and generally take Fridays off - I have never ever noticed them to stand out in any way. In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. They seem to have been assimilated to the point where it is actually a threat to the (little) cultural diversity that Denmark has. It is the same way in the other Scandinavian countries. Your comment is very, very strange. > I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) Turkey has not entered the EU. In fact, due to concerns about democracy and human rights, they have not even been promised that they can start negotiations. > Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture, and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be. One very important mechanism to make the Danish society work, is trust. We are generous with welfare. We have paid education through college/university or equivalent. In fact, in addition to free tuition, we will pay you to take an education. Danish "SU" ("Education Support") amounts to DKK5941 /month - apx $10464/year. The backside of the trust is, that one of the least socially acceptable things you can do is to cheat the generous system. > At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever criteria the country decides to It seems to me, that every country in the world - Denmark included - should accept their fair share of refugees. Smaller populations with different cultures are generally not a problem. Only when populations with very different culture and religious views grows faster than their culture as well as the host country culture can adapt to eachother do problems arise.

schoen 11y ago
> In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they were jewish. I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to. Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact between the sexes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social interactions with non-Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael See generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and culturally separate from secular society.

vessenes 11y ago

DOH, Turkey is not in the EU, thank you. And doesn't qualify for special immigration rights into Schengen territories, my mistake.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Htsthbjig 11y ago

America's fragmented culture? I suppose you refer to South America, because the North is not BY ANY MEANS fragmented. You can go anywhere in the US, from West Coast to East Coast and you see: Everybody speaking the same language. Some small places will also speak Spanish and French, but everybody speaks English. Everybody having the same religion -puritan culture. There is a significant amount of people believing in creationism as something Christian, when in fact Catholic or other views of Christianity had not accepted that for centuries. Everybody sharing their own political believes. All believing the same mythology(the founding fathers like sacred creatures, the Constitution and so on). Everybody watching the same TV channels, going to the same stores(Wallmark...) They play the same sports. They go to a basketball play and first thing they do is put their hands over the heart and sing the same hymn. Now compare that to Europe when you cross the channel from France to England , and you have different language, different cultures, people driving on the other side, values change, religion change, even weather is completely different. Denmark is totally different to Holland, to France, to Switzerland, to Poland, to Italy, to Spain to Greece...

adventured 11y ago
I take it you've never actually traveled across the US. Hispanic culture in Los Angeles is noticeably different from white culture in Boston, which is noticeably different from black culture in New Orleans. First generation Filipino culture in Seattle is noticeably different from second generation Cuban culture in Miami. What does South Dakota culture have in common with Little Armenia in LA? Only the minimum things that all people share, otherwise they're very different. Is most of rural Texas similar to the cities of New York or San Francisco? Not even remotely close. America is in fact wildly diverse, from food to media to customs.