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The cynic in me wonders if we're simply doomed to having these useful species die off at this point. We've killed off a great deal of nature already, and it see

The cynic in me wonders if we're simply doomed to having these useful species die off at this point. We've killed off a great deal of nature already, and it seems the major voting populations in our democracies are insulated enough in concrete cities and modern conveniences to not really care enough to force politicians to address these issues. And also, there's not much money in it compared to other courses of action.

rogersmith 11y ago
The cynic in me wonders why the cynic in you seems to think public opinion has any sort of influence on government policies. Remember how massive protests and objections prevented war on Iraq? Yeah, me neither.
kotach 11y ago
There's a lot of money in agriculture. Increased demand of food due to exponential growth of the population. Increased demand for luxurious food like meat due to exponential economic growth of the population. Long term, it is the most economically sustainable business from the perspective of the business owner. Long term, it is the largest polluter of all, and is unsustainable in its core. The reason why pollinating species are disappearing is the unsustainable nature of animal husbandry and agriculture. To meet the demand you have to pesticide-the-crap out of your grain fields, and there's a lot of grain fields for your animals. Not much for humans.
- swe 11y ago
  > Long term, it is the most economically sustainable business from the perspective of the business owner That's true, but not for the reasons stated. Once the population bubble bursts, the majority of human beings will become farmers if they want to survive. The negative stigma associated with farming for a living will quickly evaporate.
- shanev 11y ago
  Some farmers say it's possible to run holistically managed farms that produce the same or higher yields than industrial farms if run properly. The issue is changing policy and subsidies to make this a reality. As a side effect we'll get more grass cover which sequesters carbon and healthier meat with more omega 3.
gutnor 11y ago
Most of the western nations are nicely isolated from the consequences of climate and environmental changes. If you look at the map of the region that are expected to suffer from the consequences of Global Warming, you will notice that the western world, again, is a lot safer. I used to be a lot more cynic before, but in practice, the level of awareness and empathy for climate and environmental issues is surprisingly high compared to the actual effect it has on us. The pressure of green agenda is increasing all over the western world, and I'm sure that in 20 years we will look back to those days with discuss. The only problem is if that's going to be too late or not.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  What maps are those? And they include things like bee species extinction? I've seen some people claiming that global warming will make the extreme North have a flourishing agriculture revolution, with enough productivity to compensate the loss of the tropical regions. Those people ignore both how to read a map, and that plants need sunlight to grow. Also, they ignore every single consequence that isn't plain linear, globally constant warming. To be short, they are a joke. I hope you are not talking about those.
  - gutnor 11y ago
    That actually reinforced my point: the green movement in the western world is disproportionally strong compared to the actual consequences perceived today, and the expected consequences from the optimistic projections people believe in.
Joof 11y ago
Maybe, but losing pollinators probably means the loss of thousands of plant species. Wealthy countries who have industrial agriculture will be fine (although arguably the world will be poorer for the loss), but poor countries will be 100% fucked if they lose their pollinators.
- swe 11y ago
  Losing the pollinators is part of an unravelling ecosystem. If you think you're safe in your bubble, you won't be.
  - Joof 11y ago
    Okay in the sense that we won't immediately die because we can make up for it (although it won't be nearly as good). Losing honeybees is still easily one of the most pressing issues.
fweespeech 11y ago
Well, to be fair, the loss of pollinators isn't impossible to recover from as a substantial number of plants are hand pollinated already because its more reliable than nature in some situations. It is more likely food will increase in cost and everyone outside of the 1st world will be under substantial strain because of it. Unfortunately, Capitalism has shown consistently it is incapable of handling externalities like pollution, mishandled pesticides, etc.

rogersmith 11y ago

The cynic in me wonders why the cynic in you seems to think public opinion has any sort of influence on government policies. Remember how massive protests and objections prevented war on Iraq? Yeah, me neither.

kotach 11y ago

There's a lot of money in agriculture. Increased demand of food due to exponential growth of the population. Increased demand for luxurious food like meat due to exponential economic growth of the population. Long term, it is the most economically sustainable business from the perspective of the business owner. Long term, it is the largest polluter of all, and is unsustainable in its core. The reason why pollinating species are disappearing is the unsustainable nature of animal husbandry and agriculture. To meet the demand you have to pesticide-the-crap out of your grain fields, and there's a lot of grain fields for your animals. Not much for humans.

swe 11y ago
> Long term, it is the most economically sustainable business from the perspective of the business owner That's true, but not for the reasons stated. Once the population bubble bursts, the majority of human beings will become farmers if they want to survive. The negative stigma associated with farming for a living will quickly evaporate.
shanev 11y ago
Some farmers say it's possible to run holistically managed farms that produce the same or higher yields than industrial farms if run properly. The issue is changing policy and subsidies to make this a reality. As a side effect we'll get more grass cover which sequesters carbon and healthier meat with more omega 3.

gutnor 11y ago

Most of the western nations are nicely isolated from the consequences of climate and environmental changes. If you look at the map of the region that are expected to suffer from the consequences of Global Warming, you will notice that the western world, again, is a lot safer. I used to be a lot more cynic before, but in practice, the level of awareness and empathy for climate and environmental issues is surprisingly high compared to the actual effect it has on us. The pressure of green agenda is increasing all over the western world, and I'm sure that in 20 years we will look back to those days with discuss. The only problem is if that's going to be too late or not.

marcosdumay 11y ago
What maps are those? And they include things like bee species extinction? I've seen some people claiming that global warming will make the extreme North have a flourishing agriculture revolution, with enough productivity to compensate the loss of the tropical regions. Those people ignore both how to read a map, and that plants need sunlight to grow. Also, they ignore every single consequence that isn't plain linear, globally constant warming. To be short, they are a joke. I hope you are not talking about those.
- gutnor 11y ago
  That actually reinforced my point: the green movement in the western world is disproportionally strong compared to the actual consequences perceived today, and the expected consequences from the optimistic projections people believe in.

Joof 11y ago

Maybe, but losing pollinators probably means the loss of thousands of plant species. Wealthy countries who have industrial agriculture will be fine (although arguably the world will be poorer for the loss), but poor countries will be 100% fucked if they lose their pollinators.

swe 11y ago
Losing the pollinators is part of an unravelling ecosystem. If you think you're safe in your bubble, you won't be.
- Joof 11y ago
  Okay in the sense that we won't immediately die because we can make up for it (although it won't be nearly as good). Losing honeybees is still easily one of the most pressing issues.

fweespeech 11y ago

Well, to be fair, the loss of pollinators isn't impossible to recover from as a substantial number of plants are hand pollinated already because its more reliable than nature in some situations. It is more likely food will increase in cost and everyone outside of the 1st world will be under substantial strain because of it. Unfortunately, Capitalism has shown consistently it is incapable of handling externalities like pollution, mishandled pesticides, etc.